18100 / E1000 / E2001 from Rails/Heljan

[bmb5dnp1]

On 21/02/2024 at 11:35, Ian Hargrave said:

As a gas turbine,yes it did work passenger services on the WR,notably between Paddington & Bristol on services such   as The Merchant Venturer. Due to a variety of difficulties it was withdrawn from BR service as a gas turbine late in 1953 after barely two years work..An authentic train would consist of crimson & cream Colletts & Hawksworths but not Mk 1’s. Though Toplights were also widely used too. So good if you’ve any kit built ones at hand. It re-emerged as. 25Kv AC electric firstly on the newly electrified Styal loop in Cheshire,the UK pioneer of its kind.  

Hello,

  In the book "The Great Western Railway Gas Turbines - A Myth Exposed" there's at least a couple of photographs that appear to show MK1s in the formation of trains hauled by 18100 including a shot of "The Bristolian" in April 1952 so a few MK1s would be OK.

 

Dave

[St Enodoc]

9 hours ago, proton said:

I just received my E2001 from Rails, what a nice engine!

So here's the question.  What was the original wheel diameter?  The model material states 4' 1/2”, whereas other sources state 3'8".  As I'm going to convert it to P4 I'd like to know what it should be.

 

Thanks!

 

John

Robertson's book states 3'8" although the drawing of 18100 does not identify the wheel diameter (or the axle loads), unlike the weight diagram for 18000.

[No Decorum]

16 hours ago, proton said:

I just received my E2001 from Rails, what a nice engine!

So here's the question.  What was the original wheel diameter?  The model material states 4' 1/2”, whereas other sources state 3'8".  As I'm going to convert it to P4 I'd like to know what it should be.

 

Thanks!

 

John

Marsden/Fenn states 3' 8". The driving wheels of 18000 are stated to be 4' 0½", which might have caused the confusion.

[proton]

Thank you for the replies, I think I'm going for 3'8".  Has anyone counted the number of spokes yet?

 

John

[St Enodoc]

4 hours ago, proton said:

Thank you for the replies, I think I'm going for 3'8".  Has anyone counted the number of spokes yet?

 

John

The photo on Robertson page 87 suggests 10.

[St Enodoc]

On 20/02/2024 at 22:48, Opelsi said:

Been messing about with my lovely new E2001.

 

On DC the lights all work. Obviously dip switches are showing as on.

 

Tried both original Bachmann 36-577 and TCS 1344 decoders. Front head and tail lights working fine.

 

Cannot fathom how to get the cab lights or engine room lights to work though. Tried all the obvious things including decoder resets, remapping etc all to no avail. Cab lights should be on F5 and engine room lights on F6. Need to spend more time to get to the bottom of this.

 

Anyone else experiencing similar? 

 

On 24/02/2024 at 11:24, SRman said:

 

I don't have one of these models, but for the decoders, I would suggest that the Bachmann 36-577 would not have enough functions to operate all of the lighting functions on your model - the later version has four full-power and two logic outputs, but the earlier version with the same catalogue number may be different. The TCS EU621 has 6 function outputs, but even then they have to be the correct logic or full power outputs depending on the model's requirements.

From the model's description, you need 2 x outputs for head/marker lights, 2 x outputs for tail lights (assuming they are wired separately), 2 x outputs for cab lights (again assuming each end is separately wired) and another output for the engine room lights. That's a total of seven function outputs.

 

 

My 18100 arrived this week and today I tested it.

 

Out of the box on DC, running was fine and all the lights worked with the dip switches on.

 

After I fitted an ESU LokPilot 5 59659 running is fine but I can't get any of the lights to work at all. I suspect that I might need to do something to map the functions in the decoder but I've never needed to do this with other makes of decoder and the ESU manual is, to me, incomprehensible.

 

Any suggestions please?

[SRman]

1 hour ago, St Enodoc said:

 

My 18100 arrived this week and today I tested it.

 

Out of the box on DC, running was fine and all the lights worked with the dip switches on.

 

After I fitted an ESU LokPilot 5 59659 running is fine but I can't get any of the lights to work at all. I suspect that I might need to do something to map the functions in the decoder but I've never needed to do this with other makes of decoder and the ESU manual is, to me, incomprehensible.

 

Any suggestions please?

 

What settings did you use for the dip switches with the decoder fitted, John?

I found with a Cavalex 56 belonging to a friend that when we fitted a LokPilot, the dip switches had to be left in the DC analogue positions to get all the lights working.

[St Enodoc]

21 minutes ago, SRman said:

 

What settings did you use for the dip switches with the decoder fitted, John?

I found with a Cavalex 56 belonging to a friend that when we fitted a LokPilot, the dip switches had to be left in the DC analogue positions to get all the lights working.

Thanks Jeff. I left the dip switches as they were for DC, i.e. all four On.

[SRman]

57 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

Thanks Jeff. I left the dip switches as they were for DC, i.e. all four On.

 

OK, then possibly we could try turning all four off and see what happens. The decoder shouldn't require remapping of the functions.

[St Enodoc]

9 minutes ago, SRman said:

 

OK, then possibly we could try turning all four off and see what happens. The decoder shouldn't require remapping of the functions.

I already tried that! No good.

 

To be clear, this isn't a Rails/Heljan pre-fitted decoder - it's a "raw" one that I bought from my local model shop. I don't think any of the functions are mapped to anything.

 

I've had a play around with the function mapping tab in DecoderPro (I haven't got a Lokprogrammer) but no luck so far.

[SRman]

6 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

I already tried that! No good.

 

To be clear, this isn't a Rails/Heljan pre-fitted decoder - it's a "raw" one that I bought from my local model shop. I don't think any of the functions are mapped to anything.

 

I've had a play around with the function mapping tab in DecoderPro (I haven't got a Lokprogrammer) but no luck so far.

 

If there is a list included in the box (or if anyone here has one and has explored the settings), could someone post here which aux outputs are linked to which lights or other non-sound functions. 

Decoder Pro is good but may not read which outputs are actually active.

[St Enodoc]

10 hours ago, SRman said:

 

If there is a list included in the box (or if anyone here has one and has explored the settings), could someone post here which aux outputs are linked to which lights or other non-sound functions. 

Decoder Pro is good but may not read which outputs are actually active.

Thanks. There's nothing in the box apart from a list that says:

 

Lighting Functions - DCC Mode

 

F0 = headlights on/off at front (in direction of travel)

F1 = No 1 end tail light on/off

F2 = No 2 end tail light on/off

F5 = Cab light on/off (at front in direction of travel)

F6 = Engine room lights on/off

 

I really only want to get the headlights working on F0 - I'm not really worried about the rest. It's simply to help drivers know which way the the loco will go when forward or reverse is selected on the throttle.

 

If anyone has a factory-fitted (non-sound) loco, could they please let us know the relevant settings/mappings?

 

Thanks.

[St Enodoc]

DONE IT!!!!!

 

I have, after some brain-hurting comparisons between the ESU manual pages 56 to 62 and the relevant DecoderPro tabs, finally got the headlights to come on in the direction of travel under DCC.

 

The starting point was to reset 18100's decoder and re-enter my preferred roster, basic, motor and basic speed control tab values, then confirm that the loco still moved as expected in each direction - it did.

 

I then moved ALL the lighting DIP switches to ON.

 

Next, I went to the Function Map tab and entered the following:

 

Row 1 - Conditions = Direction Forward, F0 ON; Physical Outputs = Headlight (1)

Row 2 - Conditions = Direction Reverse, F0 ON; Physical Outputs = Rear light (1)

 

After writing the changes to the decoder, I had success with the DecoderPro throttle "Light" button, which is equivalent to the F0 button.

 

I'm going to stop there, as that's all I need, but should I wish to add the other lighting functions available on DC, I now know what to do.

 

For those who don't use DecoderPro, the relevant CV values are:

 

CV31 = 16

CV32 = 0

CV16.3.257 = 20

CV16.3.273 = 24

CV16.8.257 = 1

CV16.8.273 = 2

 

I'm now going for a cup of tea, a Bex and a good lie down...

 

PS Having checked, I now remember that there was no factory-fitted non-sound decoder option, which is why, as I don't use sound, I ordered the unfitted version.

Edited March 17 by St Enodoc

[St Enodoc]

I've just sent the following email to Rails of Sheffield, which I thought might beof interest here too:

 

"Dear Sirs –

 

I received my “DCC & Sound Ready” 18100 last week and, overall, I am very pleased with it. However, there are two points I’d like to raise with you please.

 

1. Lighting settings

 

I do not use sound, so I ordered the “DCC & Sound Ready” version and fitted an ESU LokPilot 5 MKL DCC model 59659 decoder myself. After programming the decoder, using DecoderPro, the loco runs well, as expected.

 

However, activating the lights on DCC was a challenge. Your instruction leaflet describes five DCC lighting function modes but the 59659 decoder is not pre-programmed for these. After a lot of trial and error, I managed to activate the headlight in both directions, which I use to indicate to drivers which way the loco will move. I don’t need the other four functions, so I haven’t tried to activate them.

 

Would it be possible for you to make known the decoder settings for all five functions (and the need for all four DIP switches to be ON), perhaps through your website and/or by email to purchasers please?

 

I should add that on my earlier 18000 loco the lights worked as soon as the same model of decoder was fitted, without additional programming.

 

2. Additional detail parts

 

The instruction leaflet states that the following are provided:

 

- Etched frame and magnetic reporting numbers

- 2 tension lock couplings

- 2 metal screw link couplings

- 4 bogie front steps

 

My package contained:

 

- Etched reporting numbers and magnetic frame

- 1 tension lock coupling (2 already fitted to loco)

- 2 functional metal screw link couplings

- 2 dummy screw link couplings

- 2 vacuum pipes

- 2 steam pipes

- 4 sets of etched stainless steel loco running numbers

- 0 bogie front steps

 

These discrepancies are not a problem, except for the missing bogie front steps, which I would like to fit.

 

Please forward a set (4) of these, as soon as convenient, to the address on my original order ref xxxxx.

 

I would also recommend reconciling the mismatch, again perhaps through your website and/or by email to purchasers, and in the relevant documentation for any future batches.

 

Thanks."

[Kaput]

On 18/03/2024 at 04:31, St Enodoc said:

fitted an ESU LokPilot 5 MKL DCC model 59659 decoder

 

That may have been the source of some of your issues (not owning the model in question though I could be wrong).

 

The only two UK outline models I know of that require an MKL decoder are the Hatton's 66 (note: it sounds like the Accurascale versions will be non-MKL) and the Dapol 08.

 

Using an MKL decoder shouldn't cause an issue with the bog standard headlights but any higher functions are likely to have issues due to requiring logic level functions while the MKL decoder is trying to do full power (I hope I have that the right way round).

 

 

Do wish manufacturer's would include the proper DCC information with their models and not just generic stuff like F0 = directional lights but actual useful things like No. 1 end whites = F0f, or in ESU terms: No. 1 end whites = front light (1).

Edited March 19 by Kaput

[MG 7305]

 

On 18/03/2024 at 04:31, St Enodoc said:

I've just sent the following email to Rails of Sheffield, which I thought might beof interest here too:

18100 did not have the front bogie steps.  You should refer to sources such as "The Great Western Gas Turbines" by Kevin Robertson P.61 where there is a full page photograph of 18100 lifted off its bogies.  It is quite clear that 18100 did not have them.  I believe they were fitted to the locomotive later in its career as an electric.  I think this information might be of interest here too.

[St Enodoc]

3 hours ago, Kaput said:

 

That may have been the source of some of your issues (not owning the model in question though I could be wrong).

 

The only two UK outline models I know of that require an MKL decoder are the Hatton's 66 (note: it sounds like the Accurascale versions will be non-MKL) and the Dapol 08.

 

Using an MKL decoder shouldn't cause an issue with the bog standard headlights but any higher functions are likely to have issues due to requiring logic level functions while the MKL decoder is trying to do full power (I hope I have that the right way round).

 

 

Do wish manufacturer's would include the proper DCC information with their models and not just generic stuff like F0 = directional lights but actual useful things like No. 1 end whites = F0f, or in ESU terms: No. 1 end whites = front light (1).

The Rails loco manual refers only to "a compatible DCC decoder" without being more specific. The ESU manual says that the 59659 decoder will work with either DCC or Maerklin protocols and I have had no problem with the identical decoder model fitted to 18000, where the lights worked without having to change any settings. I've received an email from Rails suggesting that I should have used their own brand RoS-218.4.2 decoder (which, according to the Rails website, is manufactured by DCC Concepts and appears to be the same as DCC Concepts DCD-ZN218.6). I'm still discussing this with them, particularly whether that option would need any bespoke settings and, if so, what.

 

1 hour ago, MG 7305 said:

 

18100 did not have the front bogie steps.  You should refer to sources such as "The Great Western Gas Turbines" by Kevin Robertson P.61 where there is a full page photograph of 18100 lifted off its bogies.  It is quite clear that 18100 did not have them.  I believe they were fitted to the locomotive later in its career as an electric.  I think this information might be of interest here too.

Thanks. I had already looked that photo.  No other photos in the book show these parts as clearly, so I formed the view that the bogie steps might had been removed from the triangular brackets on the bogie before the body was lifted. If I am wrong, then that's fine. However, the Rails loco manual does not state that the steps are only for the electric versions (in fact, depending how you read the page concerned, it could actually imply that they are only on 18100!).

 

Anyway, the email from Rails mentioned above does say that the steps are for the electric versions only, so I'm not pursuing that any further.

Edited March 20 by St Enodoc

[97406]

I've just detailed my E2001 and it looks the part. I couldn't get the original pan to follow the OHLE without snagging so I replaced it with a spare Bachmann Class 85 Faiveley pan and it can now go pan up all over the layout. 

 

I thought it appropriate to photograph Class 80 alongside Class 81. A shame it wasn't preserved or this scene would have been possible in the real world.

[SRman]

52 minutes ago, 97406 said:

I've just detailed my E2001 and it looks the part. I couldn't get the original pan to follow the OHLE without snagging so I replaced it with a spare Bachmann Class 85 Faiveley pan and it can now go pan up all over the layout. 

 

I thought it appropriate to photograph Class 80 alongside Class 81. A shame it wasn't preserved or this scene would have been possible in the real world.

That really does look the part. A lovely photo of what might have been.

[97406]

52 minutes ago, SRman said:

That really does look the part. A lovely photo of what might have been.

 

I do wonder if the 3 windscreened design of the AL series locos was developed from the prototype “Class 80”.

[SRman]

11 minutes ago, 97406 said:

 

I do wonder if the 3 windscreened design of the AL series locos was developed from the prototype “Class 80”.

 

I wouldn't have thought so as so many of the early diesels also had a three windscreen design, mainly due to the requirement of having gangway doors in the middle. I do wonder why the gas turbine locos 18000 and 18100 had it because they didn't have any gangways fitted - possibly because they were one-offs and didn't have any abilities for multiple working.

[No Decorum]

7 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

The Rails loco manual refers only to "a compatible DCC decoder" without being more specific. The ESU manual says that the 59659 decoder will work with either DCC or Maerklin protocols and I have had no problem with the identical decoder model fitted to 18000, where the lights worked without having to change any settings. I've received an email from Rails suggesting that I should have used their own brand RoS-218.4.2 decoder (which, according to the Rails website, is manufactured by DCC Concepts and appears to be the same as DCC Concepts DCD-ZN218.6). I'm still discussing this with them, particularly whether that option would need any bespoke settings and, if so, what.

 

Thanks. I had already looked that photo.  No other photos in the book show these parts as clearly, so I formed the view that the bogie steps might had been removed from the triangular brackets on the bogie before the body was lifted. If I am wrong, then that's fine. However, the Rails loco manual does not state that the steps are only for the electric versions (in fact, depending how you read the page concerned, it could actually imply that they are only on 18100!).

 

Anyway, the email from Rails mentioned above does say that the steps are for the electric versions only, so I'm not pursuing that any further.

Marsden and Fenn contains three photographs of 18100. One shows it under construction without steps. The second, undated but described as being of a test train, is not very clear but seems to show a step. The third, dated 5th. April, 1952, shows the steps clearly. The loco was delivered to Western Region in December, 1951. I conclude from these three photographs that steps were fitted to 18100 either from new or very soon afterwards. For my part, I’m not particularly bothered by the lack of steps; to my eyes, the model looks wonderful. One shortcoming does rather bother me, which is the oil cooling fan. Fenn’s drawing, rightly or wrongly, shows it covered with a grill. The fan is just moulded on and looks it and it is a bit of a shame when compared to the trouble taken over the lifting eyes on the roof. The headcode lights are beautifully done, being tungsten-yellowish and dim. However, the second and third photographs mentioned above show 18100 in action with a pair of oil lamps, which was normal practice at the time.

 

When 18100 was converted to an electric, two traction motors were removed as were the steam heat pipes. The thought occurs to me that it was never intended to haul either passenger or goods revenue-earning trains. With the Class 89 being abandoned in favour of eight-wheeled electrics, it seems that BR had condemned itself to the double heading of goods trains in order to have enough tractive weight.

[cctransuk]

12 minutes ago, No Decorum said:

The thought occurs to me that it was never intended to haul either passenger or goods revenue-earning trains.

 

My understanding is that it was a driver-training loco, pending the introduction of production AC locos.

 

CJI.

[Southernman46]

26 minutes ago, No Decorum said:

With the Class 89 being abandoned in favour of eight-wheeled electrics, it seems that BR had condemned itself to the double heading of goods trains in order to have enough tractive weight.

92's ?

[cctransuk]

43 minutes ago, Southernman46 said:

92's ?

 

Weren't they originally intended for Chunnel trains to the Continent?

 

CJI.