Gluing ballast

[Mr Brunel]

My layout is now progressing steadily, however I'm having problems

with gluing down the ballast. I apply Woodland Scenics Scenic

Cement with a pipette, but when I apply the glue/water, the ballast

either curls up into a sphere, or leaves a bare, circular mark.

What should I do?

[buffalo]

I've not used the Woodland Scenics glue for this, but the usual trick with PVA is to add a couple of drops of washing up liquid or IPA to the glue/water mix to reduce the surface tension and stop it balling up into spheres. Others recommend a misting spray of water plus detergent over the ballast before applying the glue. Yet others will tell you to use Copydex or Klear ...

 

Nick

[Brian]

I've not used the Woodland Scenics glue for this, but the usual trick with PVA is to add a couple of drops of washing up liquid or IPA to the glue/water mix to reduce the surface tension and stop it balling up into spheres. Others recommend a misting spray of water plus detergent over the ballast before applying the glue. Yet others will tell you to use Copydex or Klear ...

 

Nick

 

Quite neatly shown in the video.....

[roythebus]

I've always sprayed the ballast with a mix of washing up liquid and water before applying diluted pva from a dropper. This stops the ballast going into globs.

[Charlie the Cat]

Quite neatly shown in the video.....

 

Slightly off topic, but that really is a great video. It makes a pleasant change from the way model railways are usually presented.

 

Graham.

[M Graff]

Big Al is excactly what the hobby needs. He shows that it isn´t a geeks world!

I think Big Al is the model RR´ings answer to 50 cent.

It almost makes this sensible:

[Andy Y]

Possibly too late but I'd say abandon PVA and go Klear - http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php/topic/14193-sleeper-spacing/page__view__findpost__p__156016

 

Spread ballast, spray with Klear, leave to dry. Final spray of matt varnish optional. Time saving 50+%

[Adrian]

Possibly too late but I'd say abandon PVA and go Klear - http://www.rmweb.co....post__p__156016

 

Spread ballast, spray with Klear, leave to dry. Final spray of matt varnish optional. Time saving 50+%

 

In the latest MRJ Trevor Nunn's description of his extension to East Lynn he's used Unibond "Tile on Floors Flexi Bond Additive" which he reckons is latex based so an alternative to copydex.

Adrian

[Mr Brunel]

Thanks for the helpful advice, will look into them. Currently, the ballast is only partly complete, so it's not too late to try a different

glue.

[Pete the Elaner]

Possibly too late but I'd say abandon PVA and go Klear - http://www.rmweb.co....post__p__156016

 

Spread ballast, spray with Klear, leave to dry. Final spray of matt varnish optional. Time saving 50+%

 

I've become one of the copydex clan, but I essentially agree with Andy: Avoid PVA. It's a resin & not a very suitable product for soaking ballast.

 

Copydex has many advantages:

It dries quicker than PVA (but not too quickly)

It doesn't discolour some ballasts in the same way PVA does.

It dries rubbery. PVA dries brittle so allows ballast to flake off when knocked & transmits sound more readily (which is a bit negative if you've taken the trouble to cork your trackbed).

[Buhar]

Possibly too late but I'd say abandon PVA and go Klear - http://www.rmweb.co....post__p__156016

 

Spread ballast, spray with Klear, leave to dry. Final spray of matt varnish optional. Time saving 50+%

 

 

But how do you clean Klear and varnish off the top of the rail and the inside of the head?

[Captain Kernow]

But how do you clean Klear and varnish off the top of the rail and the inside of the head?

You could apply the Klear with a pipette instead, but be wary of overdoing the concentration of Klear per area being treated - there is a risk of the Klear causing cracking (dried river bed syndrome) if too concentrated - Re6/6 knows a bit more about this...

[Andy Y]

But how do you clean Klear and varnish off the top of the rail and the inside of the head?

 

I wiped over the rail head with an IPA wetted tissue at each stage.

[Andy C]

I wiped over the rail head with an IPA wetted tissue at each stage.

 

 

I trust that was McEwans IPA you used and not from a decent brewery?

 

back OT, and now perhaps a bit late as everyone has pitched in, ive always used diluted PVA with added washing up liquid etc etc, but instead of dropping it on, lay it down the edge of the ballast and let capilliary action draw it in (the WU liquid breaks the meniscus), keep applying it down each side till it meets in the middle. Usuall by this time its so well in that you can risk gently droppingsome on top at the side of any dry patches to thorughly soak it. Worked a treat on New Hey and Dewsbury Midland. (gratutitous reference sell for the technique!!)

[drawbar]

My layout is now progressing steadily, however I'm having problems

with gluing down the ballast. I apply Woodland Scenics Scenic

Cement with a pipette, but when I apply the glue/water, the ballast

either curls up into a sphere, or leaves a bare, circular mark.

What should I do?

 

I have used various ballast materials on my layout..... ie, finely sieved sand, sawdust, coal dust, a proprietry model grit and shot blasting grit. All have been successfully bonded with a mix of PVA woodwork glue, water and Methylated spirit in the proportions ( not at all critical) 1 : 4 : 1. The meths, being of alcohol base breaks any surface tension and , of course, speeds the setting/ drying out time. I apply via an eye dropper on small fiddly areas and for larger areas by a redundant ordinary household liquid spray. Only caveat is to take care when using meths as very inflammable.

 

drawbar

[Pete the Elaner]

Experiment with several short lengths of test track before getting to work on the layout.

Try some different glues & ballast. Go with the combination which works best for you.

 

I did this with my current layout. On previous layouts I used diluted PVA. Never again!

[Crepello]

I've had the same problem as Mr Brunel with Woodland Scenics ballast; I use the fine type on my N layout. He shouldn't despair though--I don't expect total success the first time; a second session is often required. I've had similar results pre-wetting both with a drop of detergent and with IPA in the spray. My sprayer is extremely fine and was bought from Kew Gardens for use with airplants--only about £3. Then I use a pipette to apply the Scenic Cement. A word of warning though--don't use the Dyson on it--most of the ballast will be dispaced--a battery vac is much more gentle!

[Captain Kernow]

Spread ballast, spray with Klear, leave to dry. Final spray of matt varnish optional. Time saving 50+%

How do you clean the spray bottle out after each useage, Andy, does spraying through with water a few times suffice?

[Andy Y]

How do you clean the spray bottle out after each useage, Andy, does spraying through with water a few times suffice?

 

 

If there's a lot of Klear left I'll pour it back into the main bottle. Rinse empty bottle through with warm water/detergent and give it a squirt through the spray. Rinse with clean water and leave to dry.

 

Left alone it can dry/harden and foul the spray nozzle.

 

 

[noiseboy72]

I have been using an old spray gun loaded with a PVA / Water / washing up liquid mix. I spray above the track, allowing the mist to fall down onto the ballast. It usually needs 2 coats to form a good crust, followed by a good wetting to get it all nice and hard. I clean the rail tops after each procedure and apply a drop of sewing machine oil to any point blades to protect them from overspray. Dead easy to clean, just run water with a drop of washing up liquid through until clear.

[mezzoman253]

Hi, This has been taken from an article on the old RM web by Tony Sissons on all facets of Klear(Future in USA).

 

Solvents: I have always used regular household vinegar to clean up with, spraying it through the airbrush. Never had a problem yet in the past 5 years doing this. Other solvents are Windolene, Ammonia, Chameleon Paint Stripper and a bath of Future liquid with the model submerged in it overnight. If I need to remove Future from my model I always paint the vinegar on and leave it for around 30 minutes. If I have to remove all of the Future I leave the model in a bath of it overnight.

 

While this is aimed a plastic modelling, the basis still works for cleaning up.

 

Rob

[Captain Kernow]

If there's a lot of Klear left I'll pour it back into the main bottle. Rinse empty bottle through with warm water/detergent and give it a squirt through the spray. Rinse with clean water and leave to dry.

I recall (in a different thread?) that it was suggested putting a little IPA in with the Klear, to get the Klear to run/disperse better (although it's pretty good 'neat') - but in that same thread it was implied that the addition of the IPA to the Klear affected the Klear itself in some way - have I remembered this wrong/misinterpreted it, or is there something in this? Thanks.

[Re6/6]

Has anyone tried the 'new' Klear sold as 'Pledge Multi Surface Wax' for ballasting? I read somewhere that it's not as good as the original for using on model glazing.

Any clues?

[mezzoman253]

Hi, The new replacement is a totally different liquid, and does not have the same characteristics as the original. You can still get the original from the US, but it is known by another name, which escapes me at the moment. Johnson's the maker are not marketing the product in Europe any more. There is a thread somewhere on here that gives chapter and verse on the whole tale.

 

The new product however may be usable for ballasting, but I can't comment on that, not having tried it.

 

Rob

[Re6/6]

. You can still get the original from the US, but it is known by another name, which escapes me at the moment.

 

 

...known as 'Future' abroad.

 

 

Useful info here from old RMweb for all the uses for Klear (Future)

 

 

The new product however may be usable for ballasting, but I can't comment on that, not having tried it.

 

To answer my own question I tried a quick rough and ready comparison last night using the old and the new. Original Klear is on the left and the new Pledge is on the right.

The results seem to be almost identical. Perhaps the Pledge is marginally less hard after drying, but IMHO not enough to matter. I'll try the addition of isopropyl alcohol next.

I'll be keeping my original Klear for glazing/varnishing jobs and using the new stuff for the ballasting.