Hornby Pullmans....coupling and derailments

[Dunsignalling]

With any coach fitted with close-coupling mechanisms, the first thing to check if there are any problems is the presence of any moulding flash or roughness.

 

This can affect the upper or lower faces of the link itself, the upper side of the bogie or the underside of the floor, or any combination.

 

However, one has to be careful not to remove any more material than is absolutely necessary. Getting too enthusiastic may give the link too much vertical clearance which results in it being able to rock, and will make matters worse.

 

John

[boxbrownie]

2 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

If you wiggle it all about manually for a while, the problem area should get polished a bit, revealing where you need to ease the clearance.

 

John

I’m saying nothing……

[brossard]

1 hour ago, richard.h said:

 

Thanks for that, yes the Wright couplings do the job where needed but like yourself I am now using Hunt Elite couplings on most of my coaching stock.

 

I find it actually saves me money because at an average of 50pounds a time I can't afford to buy all the coaches I would like and it's much easier to re-arrange the coaches into the different formations needed with Hunt Couplings compared to the Bachmann Pipe couplings I was using before to achieve close coupled sets.

 

Just for clarification, I am not using Hunts as I now do 0 gauge.  However, my friend has fitted several rakes with Hunts and plans to do more.  I've seen them in action and they are brilliant.

 

Try buying 0 gauge coaches, ouch!

 

John

[RFS]

7 hours ago, ikcdab said:

What changes did they make? Can I modify my bogies accordingly?

 

I can't remember exactly how it was done - I think there was a new bogie plus a close-coupling cam.

 

What I would suggest for you now is to investigate the Hunt Couplings for your Pullmans. Not needed these myself but they seem to be designed for the coaches you have.  The price in the link is for 10 pairs. 

Edited November 23, 2021 by RFS

[DCB]

4 hours ago, RFS said:

 

I can't remember exactly how it was done - I think there was a new bogie plus a close-coupling cam.

 

What I would suggest for you now is to investigate the Hunt Couplings for your Pullmans. Not needed these myself but they seem to be designed for the coaches you have.  The price in the link is for 10 pairs. 

Hunt couplings look great but why is everyone using buffers in the extended position where they are always retracted when buckeye couplings are in use?

[Dr.Glum]

Once I can run trains again I'll look at my Pullmans which have NEM pocket factory fitted couplings. ikcdab said,

 "It's hauling them round a gently reverse curve (the exit from a loop on a curve). Somehow the couplings get caught up and don't return to the straight position."

which is what mine might do, usually the one next to the engine = most drag from the train. I found that the slot in the hook of the coupling was an (almost) interference fit over the back edge of the loop. On curves the hooks move a slight amount (or should) but mine were apparently keeping the position induced by the curve which meant the bogie following was at a slight angle coming out. I was going to (somehow) slightly open the slots (and leaving a smooth edge else I'd introduce new reason for troubles) , but having read all the above I think instead I'll refit with better couplings. Many thanks.

 

[RFS]

5 hours ago, DCB said:

Hunt couplings look great but why is everyone using buffers in the extended position where they are always retracted when buckeye couplings are in use?

 

Indeed - and it's very easy to get buffer locking with close-coupling the Pullmans, especially if propelling the coaches during shunting. The simple way of retracting the buffers is first to remove the buffer and take out the spring, storing it in a safe place so you can put it back later if needed. Then put a small piece of blue-tak behind the buffer beam and push the buffer into it. The blue-tak will hold the buffer in place in the retracted position. 

[Dunsignalling]

8 minutes ago, Dr.Glum said:

Once I can run trains again I'll look at my Pullmans which have NEM pocket factory fitted couplings. ikcdab said,

 "It's hauling them round a gently reverse curve (the exit from a loop on a curve). Somehow the couplings get caught up and don't return to the straight position."

which is what mine might do, usually the one next to the engine = most drag from the train. I found that the slot in the hook of the coupling was an (almost) interference fit over the back edge of the loop. On curves the hooks move a slight amount (or should) but mine were apparently keeping the position induced by the curve which meant the bogie following was at a slight angle coming out. I was going to (somehow) slightly open the slots (and leaving a smooth edge else I'd introduce new reason for troubles) , but having read all the above I think instead I'll refit with better couplings. Many thanks.

 

If you use the right sort of couplings, the bogies shouldn't come into any significant contact with anything else. It's all the slack inherent in tension lock couplings that lets things move about randomly in relation to one another and get tangled up.

 

Cheapest thing to trial will be Hornby's "Alternative couplers" (R8220) and, depending how old your Pullmans are, you may already have some that came with them...

 

John

Edited November 24, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[melmerby]

4 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

 

Cheapest thing to trial will be Hornby's "Alternative couplers" (R8220) and, depending how old your Pullmans are, you may already have some that came with them...

 

John

Most of mine came with those and I have mixed & matched with the Roco version*, which is a few mm shorter, to achieve the best close look on the straight whilst still negotiating curves without buffer locking.

 

*Roco version here:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/224696133033?hash=item3450eee5a9:g:cSkAAOSwsGdazn7Y

 

N.B. that's a VAT paid price.

Edited November 24, 2021 by melmerby

[ikcdab]

9 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

If you use the right sort of couplings, the bogies shouldn't come into any significant contact with anything else. It's all the slack inherent in tension lock couplings that lets things move about randomly in relation to one another and get tangled up.

 

Cheapest thing to trial will be Hornby's "Alternative couplers" (R8220) and, depending how old your Pullmans are, you may already have some that came with them...

 

John

No, that isnt the case.

In fact, the bogie is irrelevant as its not attached to the coupling. 

 

I have already discarded the tension locks and replaced with hunt magnetic couplings which hold things rigid.

 

The problem is with the CCM unit that seems to catch up on the headstocks somewhere. I think thats where the problem is, i dont think its where the CCM lives over the bogie.

 

The CCM has a little protrusion that hooks over a panel behind the headstocks. Somehow, this is catching. I have removed these and tried to smooth things out with a file, but to no avail. I am tempted to cut this protrusion off altogether, but then I am worried that the coupling will droop.

 

Still tearing hair out.

 

Ian C

 

 

[phil-b259]

21 minutes ago, ikcdab said:

No, that isnt the case.

In fact, the bogie is irrelevant as its not attached to the coupling. 

 

I have already discarded the tension locks and replaced with hunt magnetic couplings which hold things rigid.

 

The problem is with the CCM unit that seems to catch up on the headstocks somewhere. I think thats where the problem is, i dont think its where the CCM lives over the bogie.

 

The CCM has a little protrusion that hooks over a panel behind the headstocks. Somehow, this is catching. I have removed these and tried to smooth things out with a file, but to no avail. I am tempted to cut this protrusion off altogether, but then I am worried that the coupling will droop.

 

Still tearing hair out.

 

Ian C

 

 

 

Yes, if you remove that protrusion / hook the the CCM arm will drop (preventing droop is why its there in the first place).

 

How much I can't say offhand - and I suspect it could introduce further problems with rear end of the arm locking up due to increased friction / odd angles.

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, ikcdab said:

No, that isnt the case.

In fact, the bogie is irrelevant as its not attached to the coupling. 

 

I have already discarded the tension locks and replaced with hunt magnetic couplings which hold things rigid.

 

The problem is with the CCM unit that seems to catch up on the headstocks somewhere. I think thats where the problem is, i dont think its where the CCM lives over the bogie.

 

The CCM has a little protrusion that hooks over a panel behind the headstocks. Somehow, this is catching. I have removed these and tried to smooth things out with a file, but to no avail. I am tempted to cut this protrusion off altogether, but then I am worried that the coupling will droop.

 

Still tearing hair out.

 

Ian C

 

 

As you have started with the original type links and modified them, you may have cured one problem only to create it again with a different cause.

 

The best advice I can offer is to fit a set of Hornby's NEM links, and NEM Hunt coupler heads. That way you are starting with stock components that are designed to work  properly together, and have a fighting chance of doing so.

 

As I've stated before, Hornby didn't discontinue the early Pullman coupler links for no good reason. I spent hours fiddling with the darned things and obtained some improvement, but never got anywhere near consistently acceptable performance.

 

I wasn't kidding when I described the early-type links as a lost cause. I didn't need to buy the T-shirt, I could have learned to weave and made my own in the time I wasted! I eventually bought the comprehensive, and quite expensive upgrade kits from Keen Systems for my first few cars, which transformed the running, whether pulling or pushing. The rest are either later ones with the Hornby NEM links or have been retrofitted with them.

 

There comes a time when, however determined one is at the beginning, frustration and all the wasted time/effort easily outweighs admitting defeat and shelling out a few quid for a reliable solution. 

 

John

Edited November 24, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[stewartingram]

With all this re-mention of TW's couplings, can anyone post a link please? I know they have been described 2 or 3 times in Tony's thread, but there are too many pages to trawl through, and searches haven't helped me!

[brossard]

5 minutes ago, stewartingram said:

With all this re-mention of TW's couplings, can anyone post a link please? I know they have been described 2 or 3 times in Tony's thread, but there are too many pages to trawl through, and searches haven't helped me!

 

Here you go, you need to scroll down:

 

The location got stuck in my head, I was so impressed.  I even did some coaches of my own and those are in the link too.

 

I said before that if you have NEM coaches, a far better and easier method is to fit Hunt couplings.  Nevertheless, Tony's method is excellent.

 

John

[ikcdab]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

As you have started with the original type links and modified them, you may have cured one problem only to create it again with a different cause.

 

The best advice I can offer is to fit a set of Hornby's NEM links, and NEM Hunt coupler heads. That way you are starting with stock components that are designed to work  properly together, and have a fighting chance of doing so.

 

As I've stated before, Hornby didn't discontinue the early Pullman coupler links for no good reason. I spent hours fiddling with the darned things and obtained some improvement, but never got anywhere near consistently acceptable performance.

 

I wasn't kidding when I described the early-type links as a lost cause. I didn't need to buy the T-shirt, I could have learned to weave and made my own in the time I wasted! I eventually bought the comprehensive, and quite expensive upgrade kits from Keen Systems for my first few cars, which transformed the running, whether pulling or pushing. The rest are either later ones with the Hornby NEM links or have been retrofitted with them.

 

There comes a time when, however determined one is at the beginning, frustration and all the wasted time/effort easily outweighs admitting defeat and shelling out a few quid for a reliable solution. 

 

John

I haven't done any modifications. All I have done is to unscrew the original Hornby couplings and screw in the hunt couplings that are specifically designed for the Pullmans. I fail to see how this solution is any different to fixing NEM converters and plugging in hunt NEM couplings.

I am sure that the problem is where the end of the CCM interfaces with the headstock. I will tinker with that end again tomorrow.

Despite that, I am grateful for your wise advice on how much time to spend on this!

 

https://www.westhillwagonworks.co.uk/images/products/121-hunt-couplings-elite-buckeye-close-coupling-clip-couplings-for-Hornby-pullman-coaches-oo-gauge-5.jpg

 

Ian

Edited November 24, 2021 by ikcdab

[Dunsignalling]

12 hours ago, ikcdab said:

I haven't done any modifications. All I have done is to unscrew the original Hornby couplings and screw in the hunt couplings that are specifically designed for the Pullmans. I fail to see how this solution is any different to fixing NEM converters and plugging in hunt NEM couplings.

I am sure that the problem is where the end of the CCM interfaces with the headstock. I will tinker with that end again tomorrow.

Despite that, I am grateful for your wise advice on how much time to spend on this!

 

https://www.westhillwagonworks.co.uk/images/products/121-hunt-couplings-elite-buckeye-close-coupling-clip-couplings-for-Hornby-pullman-coaches-oo-gauge-5.jpg

 

Ian

I had much the same issues as you with the early links, but haven’t with Hornby's NEM ones, or the Keen Systems version.

 

That leads me to conclude it's not just the outer end that was changed, even though I can't see any other obvious difference!

 

I don’t own a micrometer, but suspect that something else was tweaked by a fraction of a mm which is just enough to do the trick.

 

John

 

EDIT: I hadn't realised there had been a version of the Hunt coupling produced specifically to fit these links. That gives me clearer appreciation of your frustration....

Edited November 25, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[melmerby]

Nobody's mentioned a bit of grease (for plastics) to free the movement up.

I was attempting to fit keen systems CCUs to a Dapol/Hornby LMS 12 wheel restaurant car* and when assembled they were quite stiff, so needed some lube.

 

*Thereby hangs a tale of a disaster.

[Dunsignalling]

7 hours ago, melmerby said:

Nobody's mentioned a bit of grease (for plastics) to free the movement up.

I was attempting to fit keen systems CCUs to a Dapol/Hornby LMS 12 wheel restaurant car* and when assembled they were quite stiff, so needed some lube.

 

*Thereby hangs a tale of a disaster.

The trouble with grease, even the correct sort, if exposed to the atmosphere, is that over time it will attract contaminants and thicken. 

 

I've been using Keen CCUs since they were first introduced and prefer to dry-lubricate the contact areas before assembly by rubbing them over with a soft pencil. I use a 6B but a 4B or softer will do the job.

 

John

Edited November 25, 2021 by Dunsignalling