Operational Interest

[ejstubbs]

11 hours ago, Smardale said:

Has anyone ever created a 'running in' loop?

 

I'm sure it's done.  Those of us who don't have room to build a continuous circuit can use a rolling road for the same function.

[C126]

Please may I just add a point I forgot in my previous contribution, and a 'bete noir' : if operating a goods yard, I think one-half to two-thirds of your available siding length should be devoted to arrivals and departure tracks.  I mused in a blog post ages ago about seeing all sidings full of wagons in magazine photographs of model layouts, when some should be clear for an arriving train (unless the daily freight has just arrived, and is doing the shunting, etc.).  Hope this helps.

[Flying Pig]

56 minutes ago, C126 said:

Please may I just add a point I forgot in my previous contribution, and a 'bete noir' : if operating a goods yard, I think one-half to two-thirds of your available siding length should be devoted to arrivals and departure tracks.  I mused in a blog post ages ago about seeing all sidings full of wagons in magazine photographs of model layouts, when some should be clear for an arriving train (unless the daily freight has just arrived, and is doing the shunting, etc.).  Hope this helps.

 

I think it depends heavily on circumstances whether there is dedicated space for the stopping goods to stand clear of the main line. Plans of smaller wayside stations (as frequently the subject of models) often don't show any at all.

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, C126 said:

Please may I just add a point I forgot in my previous contribution, and a 'bete noir' : if operating a goods yard, I think one-half to two-thirds of your available siding length should be devoted to arrivals and departure tracks.  I mused in a blog post ages ago about seeing all sidings full of wagons in magazine photographs of model layouts, when some should be clear for an arriving train (unless the daily freight has just arrived, and is doing the shunting, etc.).  Hope this helps.

Where does this idea come from?   Just how many local goods yards had the space available to stand their local trip freight clear of the running lines and even more so jow mnay had the necessary space to stand longer distance trains clear while attaching or detaching?   As  Simon ('Flying Pig') has  already said plans of smaller wayside stations often don't have any at all.  

 

Some places definitely had nearby refuge sidings to which a train could be shunted to clear the running lines but such sidings were rarely part of a goods yard because they were also needed for train regulating purposes so ideally were kept away from where people were working on the ground handling loads to/from wagons.  At the vast majority of wayside stations the trip shunted the goods yard from the running line because it often didn't take very long and there were plenty of gaps in the timetable to allow for it.

[C126]

2 hours ago, Flying Pig said:

 

I think it depends heavily on circumstances whether there is dedicated space for the stopping goods to stand clear of the main line. Plans of smaller wayside stations (as frequently the subject of models) often don't show any at all.

 

Mea culpa ; you are quite correct.  Thanks for giving me a kick out of my own 'era/setting'.  I was thinking of late-B.R. wagon-load yards being shunted 'off the running line'.

[AndrueC]

I'm still thinking about operational interest for my next layout but one thing I've learned from the current one is that if you're going to go for 'run trains around and around' then it helps if you can just 'switch on and go' without having to faff around first. My current layout has an unfortunate compromise which means that trains can only get out of the staging yard onto the main line by reversing out.

 

This does put me off just popping up to the spare bedroom to run trains for a bit. It's a small thing but my next layout will have 'pass through' yards so that I can just switch on and turn the throttle up to go and switch to a different train just by parking the current one and choosing another(*).

 

As a foot-note I have added turnout motors to one of my yards and was thinking that I should probably extend the macro to select the appropriate loco (because each loco has a specific siding). That would in theory mean that I could just decide to pop up the layout and run a particular train that took my fancy with minimal preparation.

 

(*)I can run two trains at once on my current layout but only have staging yard access from one loop so that requires more juggling to move a train from the inner loop to the outer. To be fair that is an operational feature and would give an excuse for stopping the train on the outer loop.

Edited December 3, 2021 by AndrueC

[Chris M]

You can’t beat a proper set of storage sidings.

[AndrueC]

Bit bigger 'n mine (ooh er missus):

But I do have two sets imaginatively named 'North Yard' and 'South Yard'

Edited December 3, 2021 by AndrueC

[Jeff Smith]

My condensed O-16.5 model of Chirk, one end of the Glyn Valley Tramway, has the operational problem that the tram engines were turned at both termini.  I have a suitable turntable for Chirk but the locos would need to be turned in a fiddle yard for the return trip and are very difficult to put on the track due to the skirt and compensated 0-4-2 wheel arrangement.  So I envisage a 3' multi-track turntable.  Operationally GVT trains were invariably mixed so needed sorting after depositing passengers and also sometimes trains were divided somewhere on the route so the loco had to go back and retrieve the other half.  There was no signalling even though there were multiple engines in steam!

 

I relate this thinking as train turntables had not been mentioned.....

[Harlequin]

The non-scenic storage / fiddle yard (if you have one) has to support the operations you want to carry out within the scenic, modelled part of the layout.

 

Different kinds of storage / fiddle yard are suitable for different types of layout and if you design them badly then your Operational Interest will be compromised.

 

[scottystitch]

36 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

The non-scenic storage / fiddle yard (if you have one) has to support the operations you want to carry out within the scenic, modelled part of the layout.

 

Different kinds of storage / fiddle yard are suitable for different types of layout and if you design them badly then your Operational Interest will be compromised.

 

I think this is key. 

 

The fiddle/storage yard(s) need to be designed and planned with as much care as the on-scene sections of the layout, and in conjunction with however you are going to operate the layout.  Otherwise it will quickly stifle operation.

 

Off-scene yards need very careful thought.

 

Best

 

Scott.

[Bodgit]

I'm just starting to think about a layout, what it looks like and what "operational interest" it should have. I have little experience in such matters but I do think "operational interest" is very personal and what suits you will be aligned with what you find interesting. Here are some questions I've been asking myself and my take FWIW.

- roundie or point-to-point: perhaps the most basic layout decision. I'm not a big operator but would like to enjoy seeing trains move about. Its roundie for me as I'm not that interesting in shunting, and two tracks at least, may be 4. Available space would play a big part.

- passenger or goods: May be a mix of both, that will dictate whether you focus more on stations or goods yards. Mine would be a mix, one or two stations and a goods areas probably a sand/ballast goods yard as there's one local to me. I prefer diesels pulling a good train going slowly that a long train of carriages. That said, I like the idea of an automated branch line, either there/back or with a reverse loop.

- Era. Mine would be 1980s, if you're doing steam then the whole look and layout changes.

- Which do you enjoy more - building or operating? Its building for me, so complex operational interest isn't so important.

- What is it about railway modelling that you actually enjoy? Figure that one out and it'll drive your "must haves".

[Jeff Smith]

On 03/12/2021 at 08:39, Jeff Smith said:

My condensed O-16.5 model of Chirk, one end of the Glyn Valley Tramway, has the operational problem that the tram engines were turned at both termini.  I have a suitable turntable for Chirk but the locos would need to be turned in a fiddle yard for the return trip and are very difficult to put on the track due to the skirt and compensated 0-4-2 wheel arrangement.  So I envisage a 3' multi-track turntable.  Operationally GVT trains were invariably mixed so needed sorting after depositing passengers and also sometimes trains were divided somewhere on the route so the loco had to go back and retrieve the other half.  There was no signalling even though there were multiple engines in steam!

 

I relate this thinking as train turntables had not been mentioned.....

So, in parallel to my requirement above, I am planning an On30 layout which also needs a train turntable.  I have a 10'x2' shelf to house these layouts (one at a time) and will design the turntable to be compatible with both layouts.

[AndyB]

This is certainly a thought-provoking thread. I'd probably class myself as a layout builder rather than operator. 

 

But, why is this? Possibly because I enjoy the design and build process, but possibly because I've never quite got the right balance of operational interest, usability and quality. 

 

Over the years I've built a number of layouts in different genres and built my skills up with each successive layout...

 

A OO gauge Minories terminus connected to a continuous run combined the chance to operate the terminus as well as "fire and forget" a decent length passenger or freight train was fun and I actually did play with it quite often. But as an early effort it wasn't very prototypical and had track crammed in everywhere.

 

An N guge shunting plank "bitsa station" layout was satisfying to build, and arguably could have been exhibited,...but the trains could only travel a very short distance in and out of the station. No chance of sitting back and watching the trains go by! TBH once the scenery was completed my interest wained.

 

My current N gauge layout is a large BLT which is keeping me interested developing the scenery. And it is nice seeing trains gave a decent run through a landscape. Operated as a prototypical BLT though and the frequency and variety of rolling stock would / should be very limited. 

 

Like many my collection of rolling stock is bigger than needed and not really consistent with a single era or region.

 

So in due course I don't doubt that a future layout will try to bring together the successful parts of these past layouts; a continuous / out and back run to give locos a chance to stretch their legs, a goods yard for shunting interest, and a terminus to bring trains to a halt and perform operations to send the train back out again. As well as justifying the majority of the rolling stock I own. 

 

[DCB]

On 03/12/2021 at 13:56, Harlequin said:

The non-scenic storage / fiddle yard (if you have one) has to support the operations you want to carry out within the scenic, modelled part of the layout.

 

Different kinds of storage / fiddle yard are suitable for different types of layout and if you design them badly then your Operational Interest will be compromised.

 

I agree entirely. It needs to support the operations you want to carry out.  However it does not need to support operations you don't carry out.  I used a single lead junction for my hidden sidings, 6 as near equal length as I could achieve parallel roads.  It means only one train can enter or leave at a time but saved 18" length. There are push button operated dead sections so most trains can barrel in flat out and still stop short of the end. But it has to be operated like Minories. One engine brings train in, another takes it out, first engine to turn.   Too much fiddling for some, but my trains do run both ways and different  engines turn up on different trains.   Alluding to a previous post in my scenic sorting yard. I have a pair of roads  dedicated as arrivals and departure roads, Close spaced tracks for marshalling away from the goods yard, goods shed and coal yard.  Obviously they can't always be kept clear but the gaffer knows when the freights are due and he makes them available. 

Edit  Replacement pic shows  9F just arrived with a Down freight on one of the 2 reception/ departure roads there are 3more roads  plus brake van road and the longer road curving around often used as a headshunt. 6 sidings are only 12" wide at circa 44mm spacing.  Ballasting is scheduled for 2154 at this rate.

 

Edited December 29, 2021 by DCB

[muddy water]

The bottom or top of an incline could be an interesting operation. 
Different number of banking locos, depending on the load.

Stopping  of goods train to pin down and release the brakes.

[Rivercider]

Although I am never likely to build it I have over the years often thought of a continuous run layout without a large fiddle yard, it would need a decent sized room. I have thought of a single track cross country route or double ended branch line effectively forming a through route, either former LSWR or GWR in the west country, with mineral or clay traffic. My thinking was one side to primarily feature a station, with small goods yard, while the other side features a small set of sorting or exchange sidings, and perhaps a basic station. 

I had thought to possibly include basic single road fiddle yard to hold an auto train off scene, or to represent a quarry/clay branch, or quay, where I could add or remove wagon loads as appropriate,

 

For a GWR theme station inspired by Dulverton, a passing loop and additional loop platform, could hold three trains. for example, one passenger train being worked by a 14XX with auto coach. Christow on the Teign Valley was a place where some auto trains terminated, and had a stone loading plant. 

An LSWR example might be inspired by Torrington for a passenger station, with Fremington and quay on the opposite side for sidings and ball clay traffic. Tipton St John was another surprisingly busy branch line junction station that could be inspirational, likewise Topsham was a place where some branch trains terminated short, and also had a short branch to Topsham Quay. 

 

I would envisage trains of maximum 3 coaches with a 2-6-0 mogul as the largest loco, though mostly tank engines in use. It would be good to be able to shunt either the station goods yard, or freight sidings, while just letting another train run by.

 

cheers

Edited December 25, 2021 by Rivercider
Additional info

[Jeff Smith]

I too am a builder rather than operator but I wrestle with the notion of ' when does a diorama become a layout?'. All my rolling stock, mostly kit-built, has to run satisfactorily but where to run it is a conundrum.  My 9' P4 GWR BLT is essentially finished and runs well but has no fiddle yard (no room) so running up and down tests the locos and is great for photos but that's about it.

 

I built and finished an 8'x4' oval in On30 which ran well and could support some shunting but really needed a turntable.  It was fun to build but used rtr stock which I do find a bit boring although I did some significant weathering.  I was also able to test my GVT kit built rolling stock.  But ultimately a house move prompted the sale on eBay.  But it did put me off doing another roundy!

 

So now in envisioning building possibly two O scale 16.5 narrow gauge layouts in a 2'x10' space (one at a time!) I am contemplating a common 3' turntable/fiddle yard useable for either layout, both of which will require turning whole trains.  So before I really get past the planning stage, does a 7' scenic section offer enough space for interesting operation?

 

The GVT is planned to be a compressed Chirk with station, loop and tram loco turntable.  The On30 will be based on Maine 2' practice (Sandy River and Rangeley Lakes RR) with 9" turntable, loop, loco shed and storage sidings for cars and logging train.

 

[DCB]

On 25/12/2021 at 21:45, Rivercider said:

 

An LSWR example might be inspired by Torrington for a passenger station, with Fremington and quay on the opposite side for sidings and ball clay traffic. Tipton St John was another surprisingly busy branch line junction station that could be inspirational, likewise Topsham was a place where some branch trains terminated short, and also had a short branch to Topsham Quay. 

 

I would envisage trains of maximum 3 coaches with a 2-6-0 mogul as the largest loco, though mostly tank engines in use. It would be good to be able to shunt either the station goods yard, or freight sidings, while just letting another train run by.

 

cheers

Harold  Holcroft wrote that Fremington Quay was the main port where Loco Coal was landed for SR use west of Exeter.   Torrington was for years the terminus for Waterloo trains though later Ilfacombe seemed to take over the Main Line mantle and Torrington become the branch.  Milk was important at Torrington which was a brilliant example of a small simple station with limited trackage used for far more traffic than originally intended after the Halwill Jct Line was converted to Std gauge

9 hours ago, Jeff Smith said:

I too am a builder rather than operator but I wrestle with the notion of ' when does a diorama become a layout?'. All my rolling stock, mostly kit-built, has to run satisfactorily but where to run it is a conundrum.  My 9' P4 GWR BLT is essentially finished and runs well but has no fiddle yard (no room) so running up and down tests the locos and is great for photos but that's about it.

It's a difficult question.  I feel lots of exhibition layouts  are more diorama  than layout, a space to display exquisitely built locos and stock made to no consistent standard of buffer heights or couplings and every milimeter of track stuffed with stock, Goods train, Passenger and a "Station Pilot" when an empty station with half a dozen wagons parked between trains would be more realistic.  Especially if the surplus is displayed in a glass fronted case in front of the Fiddle yard.

As regards the 9ft BLT our 8ft ex GWR BLT is great fun to shunt but it has 20 feet of so approach of plain track for shunting.    99% of the time a six foot single track plank as FY would suffice.  Can you not move the BLT so you can add a 6ft FY plank poked out of the door? Or end wall, into the bathroom? Kids Bedroom, Garage, Across the pavement? Next door?

 

Edited December 28, 2021 by DCB

[Chimer]

On 25/12/2021 at 21:45, Rivercider said:

Although I am never likely to build it I have over the years often thought of a continuous run layout without a large fiddle yard, it would need a decent sized room.

 

The obvious difficulty in doing without a FY is that everything has to be in view all the time.  So if you want to see a few different locos, you need a proper MPD; if you want to run more than one rake of passenger stock, you need carriage sidings; and if you want freight ops to include anything more than a trip freight, with the train engine in the goods yard when it isn't circulating, you need a marshalling yard.  If you want all the above, you do indeed need a decent sized room.  I had a hand in the design of @halsey's "Hawkesbury" which went down this route to his reasonable satisfaction, or so he tells me, but it doesn't tick all my own boxes.

 

Edited December 28, 2021 by Chimer
Remove failed link

[Rivercider]

17 hours ago, Chimer said:

 

The obvious difficulty in doing without a FY is that everything has to be in view all the time.  So if you want to see a few different locos, you need a proper MPD; if you want to run more than one rake of passenger stock, you need carriage sidings; and if you want freight ops to include anything more than a trip freight, with the train engine in the goods yard when it isn't circulating, you need a marshalling yard.  If you want all the above, you do indeed need a decent sized room.  I had a hand in the design of @halsey's "Hawkesbury" which went down this route to his reasonable satisfaction, or so he tells me, but it doesn't tick all my own boxes.

 

My thinking on this is that each side of the layout acts as a scenic fiddle yard for the other side.

A three platform station (like Dulverton) with a couple of sidings in a small yard, with perhaps a loco spur or single road shed could hold at least three trains, and still leave the main circuit clear. On the opposite freight side I envisaged a pair of loops with a couple of additional sidings, and perhaps a branch to an off scene clay pit/quarry/quay. This would also be able to hold at least three trains clear of the main circuit.

Edit - I would envisage 1 x 3 coach set, 1 x 2 coach set plus van, 1 x auto coach. 1 loaded mineral train, 1 empty mineral train, 1 general goods train. Plus various additional vans and wagons.  Locos include a pair of 2-6-0 moguls and four tank locos for the GWR version.

I would then have the option of either a passenger based operating session, or spend time shunting the small yard and freight branch. Whether that would work, or keep my interest I don't know.

 

cheers

Edited December 29, 2021 by Rivercider
Additional info

[F-UnitMad]

40 minutes ago, Rivercider said:

My thinking on this is that each side of the layout acts as a scenic fiddle yard for the other side.

I use my layout like that. American outline; Interchange yard one side of the layout, industrial sidings & industries the other.

I didn't want to waste half my available space at home on non-scenic trackage, as with or without hidden sidings, a fair whack of imagination is needed when playing trains!! In real terms, a train for one side of the layout has only come from the other side anyway, regardless of if that side is 'hidden' or not.

[Nearholmer]

I do like operating a layout, and have gradually degenerated/progressed to be far more an operator (and collector!!!) than a builder, which poses a few space issues, given that I’ve also gravitated to 0 gauge indoors, rather than small scale NG indoors and large scale NG outdoors.

 

So, I try to ram all the things Chimer mentions into an unfeasibly small space, using the old CJF guidance of no loco bigger than a Mogul, with trains of three 50ft bogie coaches, or equivalent in goods wagons. It all gets quite ‘toy-train-sety’ in appearance, but that bothers me not, in fact I quite like it from a nostalgic perspective. It could be done in a fine-scale fashion in the same space if I adopted strictly late-Victorian trains, but that isn’t my thing.

 

Next essay is going to be even more tightly constrained, and more toy-train-sety, but is definitely going to have enough operational possibilities to keep me entertained.

 

Which ramble is really highlighting what others have said: you have to decide what your priorities are, or perhaps which compromises you can live with, or win the pools/lottery. One thing to be sure of is that learning about historic operating practices is very interesting, even if you don’t have room to reproduce more than a tiny sample.

 

PS: I don’t much like fiddle-yards on circuit-topology layouts. To me they consume space in which some semblance of a real bit of railway might be put. The “magazine of trains that each passes by once in a session” leaves me cold, so I’d rather see fewer trains, each doing more interesting things.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 29, 2021 by Nearholmer

[Nearholmer]

On 29/11/2021 at 17:29, Smardale said:

or perhaps operational examples from their own layouts that they find really enjoyable.

 

I missed that request.

 

If this link works, it should take you to a page where timetabled operation occurs:

 

 

[halsey]

On 29/11/2021 at 17:29, Smardale said:

Hello there. 

I'm spending many hours designing layouts. Partly because I find it fun, but mostly due to not knowing how much space I'll have to work with due to an upcoming move. I want to be ready though for when the time comes and have some pre-existing ideas to call upon.

One thing I'm wary of is designing a layout without significant operational interest or with missed potential for more, and so therefore I'm constantly looking at layouts, literature and prototype designs to see what's possible. I have to say that the many topics on Minories in this forum have been a real eye opener regarding this.

I was wondering if people wouldn't mind sharing either their 'operational must haves' during the design phase, or perhaps operational examples from their own layouts that they find really enjoyable. It would be a huge help to me as well as I'm sure to other novices out there.

 

Thanks in advance!

 

Sorry I'm coming to this a bit late (but will follow from now on)

 

I totally get the planning before you move house so if circumstances permit plan for a garage spare room or as in my case a suitable "cabin"

 

My absolute must have is a twin track (up and down lines) loop, everything else in my view can and will be compromised to that end.............but it does need a reasonable space