"Points"

[Andy Kirkham]

I always find it awkward to refer to a turnout or switch (which I think of as a singular item) by the the plural term "points".

 

How would I identify a single point within a turnout, and how many are there in a set of points?

[Oldddudders]

In a manual signalbox the label on the lever says 'points'. On an NX panel, the control of points other than by route-setting is by using an Independent Point Switch, which may well control a crossover or more. Points is a fine term for most of us. 

[Andy Kirkham]

11 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

In a manual signalbox the label on the lever says 'points'. On an NX panel, the control of points other than by route-setting is by using an Independent Point Switch, which may well control a crossover or more. Points is a fine term for most of us. 

But what is a (singular) point?

[bécasse]

14 minutes ago, Andy Kirkham said:

But what is a (singular) point?

A set of points.

[Compound2632]

That's language for you. It's pointless trying to find strict logic at work. A point certainly isn't any of the pointy bits - blades and crossings.

[Wickham Green too]

Maybe that's it ? ....... a set of points is ALL the pointy bits !

 

just thought I'd point out that possibility

[Steadfast]

All the points in our yard carry a number prefixed by HP, eg HP1.

 

Hand Point one. Changed with a point lever.

 

So singular, is point? Perhaps taken from 'the point at which two routes diverge'?

 

Jo

[jim.snowdon]

9 hours ago, Andy Kirkham said:

But what is a (singular) point?

A catch point, or a single bladed trap point. Otherwise all points are a set of points, ie a pair. It's essentially a signalling term, as that is the only part of a turnout that they are interested in. Permanent Way people don't normally refer to points, but to either switches, which are part of a turnout (a pair or more, of switches plus one or more crossings - not frogs, at least in Europe).

 

[Jeremy Cumberland]

11 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

On an NX panel, the control of points other than by route-setting is by using an Independent Point Switch, which may well control a crossover or more.

 

10 hours ago, Steadfast said:

Hand Point one. Changed with a point lever.

 

These examples are just how the English language usually works. In each of these phrases, (Independent Point Switch, Hand Point one, point lever), "point" is an attributive noun (a noun functioning as an adjective), and attributive nouns are usually singular, even when they clearly refer to more than one thing.

 

There are plenty of exceptions, such as sports shop, accounts department and scissors crossover. There are even a very few which use either a singular or plural noun depending on number, such as woman driver/women drivers. However, these are all very much the exception; by far the majority of attributive nouns are singular.

 

11 hours ago, Andy Kirkham said:

I always find it awkward to refer to a turnout or switch (which I think of as a singular item) by the the plural term "points".

A switch is certainly a singular item. If you want to use American terminology, you can just use switch and forget about points altogether. If you want to use British terminology, then a switch is merely one component of a set of points, and most points have two of the things.

[Steadfast]

3 minutes ago, Jeremy C said:

These examples are just how the English language usually works. In each of these phrases, (Independent Point Switch, Hand Point one, point lever), "point" is an attributive noun (a noun functioning as an adjective), and attributive nouns are usually singular, even when they clearly refer to more than one thing.

Trousers Vs trouser press another example?

 

Jo

[Siberian Snooper]

Per Way refer to them a switch, one blade or switches for two or more.

 

 

[DY444]

I've always thought of "points" as being something with a single number in the signalling scheme as in "219 points".  If 219 points is a crossover then it consists of two "point ends" numbered 219A and 219B. 

[Compound2632]

20 minutes ago, Siberian Snooper said:

Per Way refer to them a switch, one blade or switches for two or more.

 

Browsing the Midland Railway Study Centre catalogue, the terminology seems to have been "points" (and crossings) - it's clear "points" means @Siberian Snooper's "switches". An exception being "facing point lock". The brass lever plates also go for "points" but there it's difficult to be sure if that is singular or plural since they were generally worked in pairs as crossovers (per @DY444's post).

 

Terminology no doubt changed over the years.

Edited December 14, 2021 by Compound2632

[Oldddudders]

Then there are points and aspects

 

 

[Compound2632]

9 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

aspects

 

That's a signal digression...

[Siberian Snooper]

4 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Browsing the Midland Railway Study Centre catalogue, the terminology seems to have been "points" (and crossings) - it's clear "points" means @Siberian Snooper's "switches". An exception being "facing point lock". The brass lever plates also go for "points" but there it's difficult to be sure if that is singular or plural since they were generally worked in pairs as crossovers (per @DY444's post).

 

Terminology no doubt changed over the years.

 

That's why I did say "Per Way ", points are a signalling term in the UK.

 

 

[Wickham Green too]

17 hours ago, Steadfast said:

Trousers Vs trouser press another example?

There are a number of odd 'pair of' items in the English language which are - or have become - singular objects .......... who's ever heard of 'a trouser', 'a pant', 'a knicker' or 'a scissor' for instance ? ........................... conversely, a pair of gloves always ends up singular after a while !

[Jeremy Cumberland]

5 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

An exception being "facing point lock".

This is not an exception. A facing point lock locks facing points, but because "facing points" is being used as an adjective to describe the lock, it is singular.

 

I don't think that "points" in the railway sense is ever singular when used as a noun on its own or the head noun in a noun phrase, not traditionally, at any rate. However, there appears to be a modern trend away from plurals for what are clearly singular objects. I haven't yet heard "scissor", but I have heard "trouser", and "scale" for a weighing device.

[Oldddudders]

Trouser is now a verb. Much used when people have made fortunes on some dodgy deal. "He trousered half a million on that one!"

[The Stationmaster]

3 hours ago, Jeremy C said:

This is not an exception. A facing point lock locks facing points, but because "facing points" is being used as an adjective to describe the lock, it is singular.

 

I don't think that "points" in the railway sense is ever singular when used as a noun on its own or the head noun in a noun phrase, not traditionally, at any rate. However, there appears to be a modern trend away from plurals for what are clearly singular objects. I haven't yet heard "scissor", but I have heard "trouser", and "scale" for a weighing device.

It has been used as a singular noun for many years - e.g.  a facing point. or a trailing point or a point clip (also called a point clamp in some parts of the railway) or a hand point lever.  In fact I would suggest that in everyday railway operating terminology, both official and vernacular, it has been the case for many years that the word has been used just as much (if not more so) in the singular than in the plural.

 

BTW 'knicker' was of course used for many years in the singular as indeed was the term 'half a knicker'.  So not only singular but also bisected

[Compound2632]

57 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

Trouser is now a verb. 

 

Point has been a verb for much longer. 

 

Had to point that out!

[Trog]

Is the point rail not the piece of rail from which the crossing nose is machined, and that with its mate the splice rail makes up the V of rails in the middle of the common crossing between the wing rails. Traditionally the point rail side of the V would be that carrying the most traffic. The movable bits between the heel and toe of the lead are the switch rails which mate up with the stock rails onto which the slide chairs/baseplates and spacer block are mounted when the switch is closed.

[Ncarter2]

Most modern P-way will call its S&C, older staff still refer to it as P&C. 
Most discussions I have with various P-way staff will usually call the full set up points, ie 2520 points, but then when getting into detail, use switch or crossing,  ie 2520 LHHS or 2520 crossing. 
That said, it doesn’t mean that is how everyone does it, when I was on the WCML at Rugby, we always referred to the switch’s as that, even those who had been on 30odd years. Confusion has been know to set in around switch diamonds, on my current route you either specify fixed diamond, 2x common and 2x obtuse crossings or switch diamond which would be moveable blades in place of the obtuse crossings. 

[Nearholmer]

Switch diamond is a contraction of switched diamond, isn’t it?

 

Also, don’t gents’ outfitters sometimes refer to trouser, singular, as in “Manny, can you see if we have the trouser in a 34?”.

Edited December 14, 2021 by Nearholmer

[Oldddudders]

1 minute ago, Nearholmer said:

Switch diamond is a contraction of switched diamond, isn’t it?

Aka 'moveable elbows'.