Devon banks vs Lickey Incline

[TomJ]

So looking at some Devon books got me thinking. The Devon banks are ferociously steep, 1:36 in places, and second only the Lickey Incline. Yet many photos show quite long trains , passenger and goods, ascending without assistance. I know many trains were double headed but a lot weren’t. In contrast the Lickey seems to be notorious with almost every train needing to be banked in steam days - and a fleet of banking locos, some enormous!

 

So what’s the difference? Length? Locus used? Curves? 
Just interested in the comparison. 

 

[LMS2968]

The rules for Lickey were strict and uncompromising: any passenger train of more than three coaches was required to have banking assistance, irrespective of the power of the engine at the front end, and all goods trains had to take assistance, probably as a guard against breakaways in the days of unfitted wagons as much as the need for assistance for head-end power.

[Chris M]

I’m told there were occasional instances of train locos leaving the bankers behind on the Lickey incline. Most train loco crews were happy to get a nice push up the incline though. Galatea has been mentioned as one loco that climbed the incline unassisted after the banker had a problem.

 

There were very strict rules on train weight for all types of locos that used the South Devon banks even in the time of diesels. If the train was above the approved weight for a loco then a pilot was required. If performance was unknown then caution was used. For instance the first (and maybe only) time a blue Pullman went over the banks it was piloted by a Western.

Edited December 19, 2021 by Chris M

[ikcdab]

There is quite a difference. The lickey is 2 miles continuous at 1:37. 

I don't know the South Devon banks in detail, but the gradients were not continous. Dainton varies between 1:36 to 1:57. This means the steeper bits can be "rushed". 

Still tough though.

Maybe the GW engines on the south Devon banks were better than the LMS ones on Lickey!

Ian

 

[Titan]

Sometimes it is not about whether or not a train can make it up unaided, but how fast it can go.  if it is a long incline like the Lickey, say a freight train could get up unassisted at 10mph, but with a banker could manage 20mph, then you are halving the time it takes to get up the bank. And with freight trains potentially taking a long time due to slow speed this can save several minutes, which could make the difference between delaying a following train or not, as well as increasing capacity on a busy line.

Edited December 19, 2021 by Titan

[Compound2632]

Shap, climbed from the south - 4 miles at 1:75 - might be a better comparison with the Lickey, since both were in the middle of otherwise first-class high-speed main lines. Banking was the solution on both. 

[kevinlms]

4 hours ago, ikcdab said:

Maybe the GW engines on the south Devon banks were better than the LMS ones on Lickey!

Ian

 

But the Western Region didn't make any significant changes on Lickey when they took over. Just replaced Jinties with Panniers.

[kevinlms]

4 hours ago, Titan said:

Sometimes it is not about whether or not a train can make it up unaided, but how fast it can go.  if it is a long incline like the Lickey, say a freight train could get up unassisted at 10mph, but with a banker could manage 20mph, then you are halving the time it takes to get up the bank. And with freight trains potentially taking a long time due to slow speed this can save several minutes, which could make the difference between delaying a following train or not, as well as increasing capacity on a busy line.

Worse is if something does go wrong. If a loco stalled with a train, the disruption to the service will take a considerable effort to send additional loco(s) to rescue the train.

If it takes 1/2 or an hour to facilitate a rescue, then it's probably not worth the risk.

 

[kevinlms]

4 hours ago, Chris M said:

I’m told there were occasional instances of train locos leaving the bankers behind on the Lickey incline. Most train loco crews were happy to get a nice push up the incline though. Galatea has been mentioned as one loco that climbed the incline unassisted after the banker had a problem.

 

I have no idea of the answer, but I would expect that a key point about Galatea's exploit, was where exactly on the bank did the banker fail? IIRC, it was a main steam pipe failure, so it wasn't going to do any useful work, until it had been to the workshops!

If under the bridge at Broomsgrove, then doubtless the Galatea crew would have just stopped. But if it was well up the incline, then probably better to keep going.

 

The problem with a loco blasting it's way up Lickey, is that the fire would get thrown up the chimney and would require careful work by the crew to rebuild the fire.

 

Once over the top at Blackwell, there is no easy downhill run to allow the fire to recover, but a flattish, but fast run to Birmingham - the first place that a replacement loco would be available.

 

So it's perhaps doable as a once off in an emergency, but I doubt any crew would want to do such a run, as a regular feature.

[LMS2968]

Erm . . . Midland Compounds, Horwich Crabs, Royal Scots, Baby Scots, etc.

[Rugd1022]

I still sign the Lickey and it's a going up there with a bit of weight behind you on anything other than a bone dry rail. I recall one particular occasion just before the route was resignalled when the 'meeting point' between Gloucester's and Saltley's panels was the last signal was right at the top of the bank, on this day I was taking a loaded train of spoil up the bank unassisted, I had a good run up from Stoke Works Junction and hit 60mph passing through the platform at Bromsgrove with the two yellows, a single yellow and a red facing me up the bank, I was down to 22mph at Vigo and 6mph passing over the magnet for the red, but was still in notch 7. If I'd had to shut off and stop at the red there is no way I'd have got moving again without summoning the banker, luckily the Bobby woke up, pulled off at the top of the bank at the last second and I crested the summit at about 4mph, with much relief!

 

My first trip down the bank after signing the route was equally as memorable - I had 2,400 tons on the Croft - Brierly Hill job we used to have (running round at Worcester) and was on cautionary signals from Longbridge as I was following another train. Passing Blackwell the old banner repeater showed that the next signal near Vigo was on so I already had it down to 10mph, as the rear half of the train started pushing me down the bank the signal changed to one yellow but the one right at the bottom which puts you in the loop was still red. My speed was picking up despite having the brake almost in full service, and as I approached the magnet for the red it came off for the loop, I knew what to expect from learning it the week before but it was still quite scary going down 'solo' for the first time.

[MidlandRed]

8 hours ago, kevinlms said:

But the Western Region didn't make any significant changes on Lickey when they took over. Just replaced Jinties with Panniers.

Not quite - they attempted to replace the dedicated 9F with a 52xx 2-8-0. Whether it was as suitable as a banker is questionable - probably not as powerful. However that is academic as it fouled station platforms. Common sense prevailed and a 9F was retained until dieselisation - although a plan was hatched to ‘westernise’ 92079 by fitting it with a double chimney - however it was never converted. In fact no 9Fs were converted to double chimney except for the original WR handful - however the Swindon build 9Fs and final Crewe ones were double chimneyed from new (following research by Swindon which showed marginal benefits).
 

I’ve seen many photos showing the 9F, mostly 94xx panniers, but still a couple of Jinties at Bromsgrove and on the Lickey - anyone know why the Jinties were still there?  

Edited December 19, 2021 by MidlandRed

[Rivercider]

Would there have been any steam drivers who regularly worked over both routes?

 

In RES and EWS days Barton Hill link 1 men signed Bristol to Plymouth and Bristol to Derby, so would have worked parcel trains over both routes with class 47s and 67s,

 

cheers

[kevinlms]

16 hours ago, Coombe Vale said:

Of course they were. The LMS only started to get decent engines under William Stanier and he was trained at Swindon.     

The LMS and LMR had a couple of goes at testing the Lickey, so see if the severe weight restrictions could be eased. However on each occasion, the results proved that if something went wrong, it was more trouble than it was worth.

 

The other thing with Stanier, he originally tried the low degree of superheat common on the GWR, but it proved to be a failure - only resolved by using a higher degree of superheat, which had been practised on the LMSR for years. A lot to do with the type of coal, but the LMS was hardly going to 'import' more expensive coal.

[LMS2968]

Not entirely. The basic problem with Stanier's boilers in the early days was incorrect tube ratios, not something imported from Swindon, to which the low superheat temperatures merely added. Generally, coal quality was probably little different. The usual assumption that the GWR used best Welsh steam coal exclusively is in error; the GWR would not pay to drag coal from South Wales to , say, Wolverhampton while there was good coal to be had from Staffordshire.

 

How much of the problems with tube ratios was down to Stanier and how much to the drawing offices is not easy to establish.

[LMS2968]

Yes, mat6e, I realised that, but it was a remark I just couldn't let you get away with scot free!

[cheesysmith]

Surprised no one has added the woodhead from wath to penistone onto this list. Officially 1 in 40, but was steeper than this in places due to subsidence from coal mines. Required 4 locos to get the coal trains up the hill.

 

And if anyone thinks the EM1 were a bit weak in the pulling power department, when the power was off, the trains used a class 47 on each end of a half rake of MGR wagons.

[Rivercider]

I was intrigued so had a look through the WR Freight Train Loads booklets I still have.

 

From the 'maximum loads' table, assuming a class 47 unassisted, working a fully fitted class 6 - 8 service, we have the following loads (including locomotive):-

Newton Abbot - Plymouth  725t

Plymouth - Newton Abbot 725t

Bromsgrove - Blackwell 650t

Exeter St Davids - Exeter Central 585t

 

cheers  

[D826]

Good shout about St David's to Central Kevin.  That's fierce, steep, from a standing start, on a curve and the tunnel under St David's Hill.  

 

Used to love hearing the 50s open up to climb up there.  

 

Best regards and Merry Christmas folks.

 

Matt W

Edited December 20, 2021 by D826
Mixing up my Exeter streets !

[The Stationmaster]

By popular locally informed repute the steepest part of Dainton is a short stretch at 1 in 34 (and it's on the curve).  However stretches like that can literally change a little overnight when the tampers have a go - all i know of it is that some of it is pretty steep when you have to walk up it

[D826]

On 20/12/2021 at 18:06, D826 said:

Good shout about St David's to Central Kevin.  That's fierce, steep, from a standing start, on a curve and the tunnel under St David's Hill.  

 

Used to love hearing the 50s open up to climb up there.  

 

Best regards and Merry Christmas folks.

 

Matt W

This sounds better than it looks, especially on headphones with the bass turned up !

 

[D826]

And Champion up the Lickey. (Which sounds like a dodgy practice advertised on some of the cards left in phone boxes round King's Cross back in the day).

 

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.

 

Matt W

 

 

Edited December 21, 2021 by D826

[D826]

Dainton, to complete the set.  Listen loud.   Classic.

 

 

Edited December 21, 2021 by D826

[The Stationmaster]

16 hours ago, D826 said:

Dainton, to complete the set.  Listen loud.   Classic.

 

 

Hmm, making heavy weather of that and plenty of coal dust getting warmed up as it passed through the tubes.

[Compound2632]

On 20/12/2021 at 14:10, LMS2968 said:

it was a remark I just couldn't let you get away with scot free!

 

Ho ho!