MTB MP1 point motor query

[RobinofLoxley]

4 hours ago, spikey said:

 

Oh I say!  I do hope you have it in its proper leather never-ready case.

 

MIne used to belong to a chap called George Percy Oliver.  He had his initials branded into the leather

Must be Royalty with three christian names

[KingEdwardII]

14 hours ago, RobinofLoxley said:

the motor would not set a Hornby 8077 or 8078

I've never used an MP1 to drive a Hornby point - my 3mm setting is for Peco streamline turnouts. I suppose it is necessary to check the tiebar throw distance for whatever turnouts you're using.

 

14 hours ago, RobinofLoxley said:

I found it safer as I said to start them up with the two screws loose, observe the travel, and fix the pin from that.

My approach is to set the MP1 to one end of its travel, then from under the baseboard feed the metal pin into the hole in the turnout tiebar until the motor is flush with the underside of the baseboard. I then move the motor sideways causing the tiebar to move from one end of its travel to the other and back again - this checks both the correct position and that there is free movement (on a couple of occasions I found I had to redrill the hole through the baseboard since I'd done a poor first attempt and something was snagging the metal pin). Once I know the distance and direction of motion, I mark the motor position on the baseboard at the end of travel, drill the screwholes and fix.

 

Almost every the time, I'm done - activating the motor from the controller switches the turnout perfectly. On a couple of occasions, the position was not correct and the turnout would not throw completely. This is where the adjustment capabilities of the MP1 come into play. The screws on the linear slider on the MP1 can be slacked off and the slider moved fractions right or left until both endpoints are correct for the turnout. Job done.

 

15 hours ago, RobinofLoxley said:

I had more trouble wiring the DR4018's

My only problems at the DR4018 end related to fitting 8 3-core cables into a small space. By using mains flex, the colour coding of the 3 wires was built-in, so I used  Yellow/Green as Common and the Brown & Blue for the pair of wires on the channel. Installation is a bit fiddly since the terminals are fairly small, but once inserted and tightened, I've found the connections secure & reliable. I typically wire up the MP1 end on my workbench before the motor is installed, which I find easier.

 

As far as programming the DR4018s is concerned, the main thing I found is to be methodical - there is a set sequence and it is important to press the programming button on the DR4018 at the right point in the sequence. I've now programmed them with a Gaugemaster Prodigy2 and with a Digikeijs DR5000 and find it fairly straightforward. 

 

Yours, Mike.

[spikey]

OK, after being singularly unimpressed with the Cobalt point motor I tried last year, I freely admit to being sceptical about these 'ere MPB things, but in the end I gave in and with fingers crossed splashed out on 4 of 'em.  Then life got in the way a bit, but as the OP of this thread I now return with my verdict.

 

They're good.  I like them. 

 

Changing the default setup to 3mm travel for use with my Streamline 3-ways was a doddle, as was installation under the boards once I'd cut away one cross-member and drilled the requisite hole up under the one tie-bar which was connected to a surface-mounted SEEP ('cos of the cross-member under it!).  

 

I love the way you can install them with the screws retaining the actuating pin and its holder a bit slack, then tighten them once everything's spot on, and I was impressed to note the narrower hole provided for thinner actuating wire than the one provided.

 

So, all four were installed and wired up to a three-way rotary switch as per the diagram very kindly uploaded by @Harlequin, and to my amazement it all worked first time!

 

Thank you to all those whose contributions to this thread persuaded me to try MPB MP1s.

[Butler Henderson]

Just fitted nine - noted on a number one of the horizontal adjusted bolts was very very firmly fitted, although I found on most I did not need to make any horizontal adjustment; those that did was more due to easing tight clearance to a baseboard frame diagonal. I checked the operation of each before fitting and had the mechanism set to the end of travel nearest the wire contacts. The simplest way of fitting I found was sticky pad strip and with the Peco point held to the correct position the motor fitted eyeballing through the baseboard hole  the movable part of the Peco point to ensure correct orientation. Point psoitioned checked and operation tested  and then flange head no.4 self tappers used to provide bit more of a secure fitment. Running them on 10v rectified by a LM2596 module.

[cga]

Having read this topic and being unhappy with the DCC Concepts SS point motors, I am contemplating adoption of the MTB MP1 and would welcome advice from someone with the same operating system as I have.

 

I am using a Gaugemaster Prodigy Wireless DCC and use predominantly Markits EM gauge and some home-built point work, operated with 0.7 mm NS wire in PTFE tube.

What exactly would I need to purchase to set this up?  Is the Digikeijs DR4018 essential?

 

 I presume that the DCC concepts SS controller is not compatible, or if it is compatible, it will merely generate the same faults as it does with the SS point motor.

 

Thanks,

 

Mike

[melmerby]

2 hours ago, cga said:

Having read this topic and being unhappy with the DCC Concepts SS point motors, I am contemplating adoption of the MTB MP1 and would welcome advice from someone with the same operating system as I have.

 

I am using a Gaugemaster Prodigy Wireless DCC and use predominantly Markits EM gauge and some home-built point work, operated with 0.7 mm NS wire in PTFE tube.

What exactly would I need to purchase to set this up?  Is the Digikeijs DR4018 essential?

 

 I presume that the DCC concepts SS controller is not compatible, or if it is compatible, it will merely generate the same faults as it does with the SS point motor.

 

Thanks,

 

Mike

Ideally you need a supply that can provide about 200mA at 12v. (per motor)

N.B. this is not continuous as the motor switches off at the end of travel (about 1 to 2 secs operating time.)

THe DR4018 is the recommended decoder for these and as such is sold in a bundle with 8 x MP1motors.

 

I have no experience or knowledge of the DCC Concepts device  so cannot give advice on their suitability.

Edited March 2, 2022 by melmerby
banana finger action needing correction

[KingEdwardII]

8 hours ago, cga said:

What exactly would I need to purchase to set this up?  Is the Digikeijs DR4018 essential?

How do you want to operate the point motors?

 

DCC via your Prodigy, or via some manal means like flicking switches - it's not clear from your posting?

 

For DCC operation, the DR4018 is a very good option - I originally had my DR4018s working with a Gaugemaster Prodigy Advanced 2 system, although I now use a Digikeijs 5000.

 

If not using DCC, MTB MP1 point motors can be driven using simple switches - SPDT will do - using a 12V DC supply. The voltage supplied to the MP1 is left "on" when the motor reaches the end of travel - the motor itelf turns the current off, so there is no need to organise any separate timeout or break in the current.

 

One difference from the DCC concepts SS controller is that the switch used to power the frog is part of the MP1 motor rather than the controller.

 

Yours,  Mike.

[cga]

Thank you Mike, that's very helpful.

 

I hadn't decided how to operate the point motors, but probably by the Prodigy.  I'm reluctant to completely change to DigiKeijs because of the expense, and might even revert to using the manual point levers with  the wire in tube which I had originally.

 

Mike

[KingEdwardII]

3 hours ago, cga said:

but probably by the Prodigy

That will work fine.

 

My reason for switching to Digikeijs 5000 was computer control - I drive points etc from a large touch screen controlled by a Raspberry Pi 400, so I needed good connectivity from the computer to the DCC controller. Prodigy is not so good at that, but you can drive points via the Prodigy handset.

 

Yours, Mike.

[Izzy]

3 hours ago, cga said:

Thank you Mike, that's very helpful.

 

I hadn't decided how to operate the point motors, but probably by the Prodigy.  I'm reluctant to completely change to DigiKeijs because of the expense, and might even revert to using the manual point levers with  the wire in tube which I had originally.

 

Mike

Could I suggest that however you work them you power via an accessory bus with a switch to turn off the track bus when a short occurs because of wrongly set points. I’ve done this to overcome the conundrum of no power to change points when such an event happens. I’m terrible at failing to change points and ending up like this. With manual operation it isn’t of course a problem.

 

Bob

[melmerby]

2 hours ago, Izzy said:

Could I suggest that however you work them you power via an accessory bus with a switch to turn off the track bus when a short occurs because of wrongly set points. I’ve done this to overcome the conundrum of no power to change points when such an event happens. I’m terrible at failing to change points and ending up like this. With manual operation it isn’t of course a problem.

 

Bob

The easiest way to overcome this is a circuit breaker in the track supply, but still have a direct connection to the accessories.

I've had this set up for some years now and it was one of the best things I did.

If the breaker has auto recovery (many do) as soon as the short is corrected, track power returns

So change the culprit point's setting, short goes, track power back on.

It does however mean some extra expense for a breaker.

 

[Izzy]

16 minutes ago, melmerby said:

The easiest way to overcome this is a circuit breaker in the track supply, but still have a direct connection to the accessories.

I've had this set up for some years now and it was one of the best things I did.

If the breaker has auto recovery (many do) as soon as the short is corrected, track power returns

So change the culprit point's setting, short goes, track power back on.

It does however mean some extra expense for a breaker.

 

As @cga uses a Prodigy as I do I suggested a switch because my experience with such as a PSX cb is they don’t play nicely together. Indeed trying to use a PSX-1 wrecked my base station which Gaugemaster then had to repair. I’d agree that for other systems it would be an easy solution.

 

Bob

[melmerby]

12 minutes ago, Izzy said:

 Indeed trying to use a PSX-1 wrecked my base station which Gaugemaster then had to repair. I’d agree that for other systems it would be an easy solution.

 

Bob

I'm a bit puzzled as how something that detects a short circuit and cuts the power can damage a DCC system.

Yes, the cut off timings might be a problem (I had to adjust them when used with a Z21), but damage it?

IMHO it shouldn't. To me that suggests a less than robust dcc system design.

 

I actually had an NCE EB-4 but it went faulty a few months back and I opted for a PSX as it is more versatile. e.g. I can turn it it on & off from the DCC system.

The EB-4 worked as it was and didn't need tweaking.

Edited March 3, 2022 by melmerby

[PaulRhB]

41 minutes ago, melmerby said:

I'm a bit puzzled as how something that detects a short circuit and cuts the power can damage a DCC system.

Yes, the cut off timings might be a problem (I had to adjust them when used with a Z21), but damage it?

IMHO it shouldn't. To me that suggests a less than robust dcc system design.

 

I actually had an NCE EB-4 but it went faulty a few months back and I opted for a PSX as it is more versatile. e.g. I can turn it it on & off from the DCC system.

The EB-4 worked as it was and didn't need tweaking.

There are two basic protocols I was told and mixing the early and late versions can cause problems with boosters and circuit breakers. DutchMaster explained it somewhere a few years ago when I was looking at power breakers to slave off the Z21. 
I was recommended to use Uhlenbrock at the time with the Z21 and subsequently the digikeijs range gave more options. 

[Izzy]

Neither the makers of the PSX  nor Gaugemaster could understand it. Both tried to solve it and couldn’t at the time, this was some years ago now. I have no idea what had to be replaced. The Prodigy system cb works pretty much the same as the PSX, it’s very fast, but there is no user adjustment as with the PSX. I think this was at the heart of the problem. But once bitten twice shy as they say…..

 

Bob

[GRUNFOS]

 

Hi Gents,

Will the Digikeijs DR4018 work with a NCE POWER CAB?

 

Thanks

paul.

[melmerby]

9 minutes ago, GRUNFOS said:

 

Hi Gents,

Will the Digikeijs DR4018 work with a NCE POWER CAB?

 

Thanks

paul.

It's a DCC device so why not?

Just give it a separate power supply and it should work fine. (that way it won't sap DCC current)

[GRUNFOS]

36 minutes ago, melmerby said:

It's a DCC device so why not?

Just give it a separate power supply and it should work fine. (that way it won't sap DCC current)

Great, thanks for swift reply.

Paul

[Andy_C]

Update.

 

Finally got some of the MP1s working my code 55 points, via the Digikeijs 5000 and 4018. Switching is fine. control at the moment is via DigiTrainsPro app. I'm still laying track and wiring, so am unsure if I'll remain with this way of controlling things, or will move to a more conventional hand held controller. I think there is a route setting option in Pro that does appeal. If that throws the required points etc then that would work nicely for what I need. I won't need to go the whole block detection level, so a simple route setting option would work.

[Ravenser]

Does anyone have experience driving these MP1 point motors using 16V AC ? Apparently they cater for this , but there is nothing much said in the notes supplied, and all the videos I can find/everything in this thread discuss using a 12V DC supply or connecting them to an accessory decoder , or some high end Digikeijs black box. But never AC

 

The intended application is an N gauge layout which is DC analogue. 16V AC supply is available, but the only 12V DC supply is the traction power (and connecting up to something that changes polarity and is turned up and down seems like a bad idea...)

[melmerby]

According to MTB the source voltage should be 8 - 16v AC or DC, they consume about 150mA when moving.

Polarity doesn't matter as there is an inbuilt rectifier, so the motor always turns the same way.

You just need a supply and a changeover switch to operate

Edited August 28, 2023 by melmerby

[Ravenser]

2 minutes ago, melmerby said:

According to MPB the source voltage should be 8 - 16v AC or DC, they consume about 150mA when moving.

Polarity doesn't matter as there is an inbuilt rectifier, so the motor always turns the same way.

You just need a supply and a changeover switch to operate

 

 

My understanding from the documentation is that for 12V DC there is a positive common , and negative to each side of the motor/switch. So you need to wire the positive side of the DC supply to Common. That would seem to rule out using the traction supply

 

But , again - what is the situation for 16V AC (where there is no polarity) ? Does it work, and does anyone have any experience of it?

 

The deafening silence everywhere I look about wiring these for AC   is striking - and ringing alarm bells

[RobinofLoxley]

I posted elsewhere, but no-one has replied, asking what the spec is for the small screws that hold the slider and operating pin in place; I guess M2 cheesehead x 6mm, can anyone confirm please?

 

(I have lost an entire bag of them somehow)

[Gilbert]

25 minutes ago, RobinofLoxley said:

I posted elsewhere, but no-one has replied, asking what the spec is for the small screws that hold the slider and operating pin in place; I guess M2 cheesehead x 6mm, can anyone confirm please?

 

(I have lost an entire bag of them somehow)

My instruction leaflet says M2 x 5 - and they are cheeseheads

Chris H

[RobinofLoxley]

32 minutes ago, Gilbert said:

My instruction leaflet says M2 x 5 - and they are cheeseheads

Chris H

Lol so does mine. How I overlooked that I dont know..

 

Ordered from Accu, postage costs 3x the cost of 24 screws

Edited October 18, 2023 by RobinofLoxley