"La Trochita"

[br2975]

Not many are aware that during the 19th century a small number of Welsh folk emigrated to Patagonia, Argentina and in particular the province of Chubut.

.

Welsh is still spoken in some of these remote places, despite the one time efforts of the Argentinian authorities to subdue the mother tongue (sounds familiar).

.

Remote villages still hold the occasional 'gymanfa ganu' and local 'eisteddfodau' albeit with an increase in Espanol.

.

But this is the main attraction, and together with 'Orca watching' was the reason my son recently made the trip to Argentina.

.

When he enquired locally about the possibility of a footplate ride, he was advised to 'speak to the driver' he did !!!

Brian R

[Oldddudders]

Gorgeous anachronism looks like Colorado & New Mexico 60 years ago. The Victorian age seems to have driven a lot of Celts out of Britain, to the benefit of far-flung countries, certainly. Your son has a lot to be proud of in "discovering" this! Great pics, too - no point in getting there and not handling the camera well, yet millions do it every holiday!

[PaulRhB]

I've seen some nice film of this line by Nick Lera doing a talk at our club

http://www.nickleravideo.com/catalogue/patagonia.htm

 

I know it's been in the rail press at times as they are a bit prone to minor derailments and the remoteness means it can take a while to get all the gear needed to sort it.

[br2975]

Some more shots from the boy's Patagonian jaunt earlier this year.

.

Brian R

[trisonic]

Very good! I've only made it as far south as Uruguay myself.

There's also a sizable Welsh population in Pennsylvania keeping up the old traditions.

Thanks for posting this.

 

Best, Pete.

[br2975]

There's also a sizable Welsh population in Pennsylvania keeping up the old traditions.

 

Pete,

.

They include my relatives, of good South-Walian stock, now living around 'Hop Bottom' north of Scranton.

.

A few years ago a colleague of mine was communicating with a lady in Wilkes-Barre PA and he was invited out to visit (they later married). My colleague was embarrassed when his ladyfriend invited him along to chapel shortly after he arrived, and everyone spoke to him in Welsh, unfortunately, being from Cardiff he couldn't speak Welsh !

.

Brian R

[RW James]

Gorgeous anachronism looks like Colorado & New Mexico 60 years ago...

I was thinking exactly the same thing.

 

Wonderful photos and story. Thanks for sharing

[Nickinwestwales]

Hi guys-Nice pics..Didn`t Paul Theroux write about travelling on the Patagonia Express ??.

 

Ian-Not sure about the Patagonian Cymraeg but am fairly sure the Pennsylvanian enclave were out there as coal miners:-It`s a truth that wherever the empire spread,the Welsh provided the engineering know-how to make the trains run....

 

Brian-I suspect that more ex-pats than natives speak Welsh:-for certain,where I live ( South Pembs--Little England beyond Wales ) it`s not spoken at all -A great shame as it is a wonderfully mellifluous & musical language-- although with that said,the Cardiff,Newport & Swansea `dialects` (if that is the word) all have their own rhyme & rhythm..and yes,I am English

 

Pete-Seeing your tag line,a similar version from Keith Richards about open `G` tuning :- 5 strings,3 fingers,2 chords,1 a$$hole....seems to have worked for him.........

 

ATB

 

Nick

 

 

[John_Hughes]

Hi guys-Nice pics..Didn`t Paul Theroux write about travelling on the Patagonia Express ??.

 

Ian-Not sure about the Patagonian Cymraeg but am fairly sure the Pennsylvanian enclave were out there as coal miners:-It`s a truth that wherever the empire spread,the Welsh provided the engineering know-how to make the trains run....

 

Brian-I suspect that more ex-pats than natives speak Welsh:-for certain,where I live ( South Pembs--Little England beyond Wales ) it`s not spoken at all -A great shame as it is a wonderfully mellifluous & musical language-- although with that said,the Cardiff,Newport & Swansea `dialects` (if that is the word) all have their own rhyme & rhythm..and yes,I am English

 

Pete-Seeing your tag line,a similar version from Keith Richards about open `G` tuning :- 5 strings,3 fingers,2 chords,1 a$$hole....seems to have worked for him.........

 

ATB

 

Nick

 

 

The Welsh of Pennsylvania went there because William Penn opened the door wide for them; they were generally Quakers who faced persecution in their own country, and wanted somewhere they could live in peace.

 

There's a Quaker Museum in Bala which tells their story, and there are also two excellent Welsh novels, Y Stafell Ddirgel and Y Rhandir Mwyn. (The Secret Room and Fair Wilderness; both have been translated into English and both were dramatised on television in the 1970s).

 

As late as the middle of the 19th Century it was said you could travel all day in parts of Pennsylvania and hear nothing spoken but Welsh.

[coachmann]

Another possible reason for South Walians moving to Pennsylvania was to do what they knew best, work in the coal mines. Poles went there for the same reason.

[trisonic]

[quote name='Nickinwestwales' date='07 August 2010 - 18:46 ' timestamp='1281224792' post='193694'

 

Pete-Seeing your tag line,a similar version from Keith Richards about open `G` tuning :- 5 strings,3 fingers,2 chords,1 a$hole....seems to have worked for him.........

 

ATB

 

Nick

 

 

 

 

 

Nick, You're the first person to pick up on that but yes that's where my sig line originated........met him whilst working on the mix for "Satanic Majesties" with Glyn Johns when Dick Rowe sent me to pick up the Master for Production - at the time I was the gopher for Decca's A&R Dept! walked in when they were finishing "She's a Rainbow". Still have a soft spot for that track....

 

Best, Pete.

 

 

[ForestPines]

Brian-I suspect that more ex-pats than natives speak Welsh:-for certain,where I live ( South Pembs--Little England beyond Wales ) it`s not spoken at all -A great shame as it is a wonderfully mellifluous & musical language-- although with that said,the Cardiff,Newport & Swansea `dialects` (if that is the word) all have their own rhyme & rhythm..and yes,I am English

 

South Pembrokeshire was probably the first part of Wales where Welsh was lost as the local language - hence the "Little England Beyond Wales" name. It happened as long ago as the Middle Ages: there was heavy settlement of the area by Norman aristocrats, which led to heavy anglicisation.

 

On the other hand, in parts of the Pennines and Cumbria, late enough to be recorded by modern folklorists, shepherds still used a Welsh dialect specifically to count their sheep, and for nothing else. It's called the "yan tan tethera" rhyme, if you want to look it up.

[Nickinwestwales]

Well good evening gentlemen all,drinks all round I think......Given the nature of the topic,Brains S.A should be appropriate

 

First I think to Brian:-Apologies for unintentionally de-railing a perfectly straightforward thread with matters of Celtic diaspora & lineage,salted with musicianspeak...a consistent failing of mine :- As an act of penance I will try to do a little research and see if I can flesh out the fab pix with some solid background info...

 

As an initial punt,I would guess at 3` gauge and the Baldwin works for those lovely fat cylindered locos...will report back when more is known.

 

Well then,since the ball is now out of the scrum and moving down the back line...

 

John:-Thank you sir,I stand corrected-The Quaker connection had never occured to me-Was it a North Walian thing ?-To my shame I can never remember whether the Kingdom Hall or the Friends House (if either) is the Quakers or the Jehovah`s ,-I guess we had a similar thing here with the influx of Flemish weavers-poss. at the time of William of Orange & Mary ??? (open to correction here )

 

Coachmann:-Had no idea that there were also that many Polish emigres in that area-still,a day without learning is a day wasted .......

 

Pete:-as conversation stoppers go,that is a FINE anecdote ..!!:-So,I`m guessing you are a player yourself,where do you stand on the open `G` debate..?-Keep the 6th string or lose it ?

for myself, I say keep it,that low `D` gives a valuable extra floor note-especially when playing solo acoustic

A pleasure to connect.......

 

Forestpines:-You are quite correct-this part of Wales has been under the thumb since way back ( although the Romans gave up when they got to Carmarthenshire) -Although, at least one British King has come from here- Henry Tudor was born and raised in Pembroke castle-You wanna talk castles-we have more castles than a bad day at Swindon works..............

 

 

 

Interesting note on the Yan,Tan rhyme-I believe it also appears in Cornwall & Devon ( same Celtic diaspora north from Brittanny) but also, as you say,in Cumbria & Pennines which suggests it may predate the Celtic influence and poss. hark back to the Pictish `original` settlers-It is after all a very primitive system-4 fingers 1 stone,four fingers 2 stones...I have it in mind that the Greeks used a similar system back before grandma was a girl

 

Anyway-enough-be good ,have fun

ATB

Nick

 

 

 

 

 

[Adam]

Nick

 

The Friends Hall would be the Quakers - their 'proper' name being 'The Religious Society of Friends'.

 

I'll lay off the issue of Welsh language in Pembrokeshire since I don't know enough about it as it is at present. The Landsker is an old divide but there is plenty of evidence for Welsh being spoken extensively throughout the county in the later middle ages (which is part of the day-job so I am confident about that!).

 

Thanks to Brian for the photos which kicked this all off.

 

Adam

[John_Hughes]

Nick

 

The Friends Hall would be the Quakers - their 'proper' name being 'The Religious Society of Friends'.

 

I'll lay off the issue of Welsh language in Pembrokeshire since I don't know enough about it as it is at present. The Landsker is an old divide but there is plenty of evidence for Welsh being spoken extensively throughout the county in the later middle ages (which is part of the day-job so I am confident about that!).

 

Thanks to Brian for the photos which kicked this all off.

 

Adam

 

The Landsker Line (the word itself is an interesting blend of Welsh and English) which marks the border between Welsh and English Pembrokeshire has a certain amount of official existence, having been recognised in Dyfed County Council Education Department documents in the 1980s (and that was my day job at the time!) At one time it literally ran down the middle of Haverfordwest High Street; you'd hear mostly Welsh on one side and mostly English on the other.

 

The Picts and the others mentioned aren't evidence of a Celtic diaspora, but the visible remains of the one-time complete Celtic occupation of these islands; the various inscribed Pictish stones show that 'Pictish' is actually Brythonic (pre-Welsh Welsh, if you see what I mean), and close enough to modern Welsh that I can decipher many of the texts without difficulty.

 

And the Celtic kingdom of Rheged (more-or-less modern Cumbria) was (historic fact!) at one time ruled by Coel Hen; you may know him better as Old King Cole!

 

The Rheged Centre - about a mile from Penrith railway station - is a good spot to visit if these things interest you, as is the truly superb Tullie House Museum in Carlisle, surely one of the best local museums in England, even though only just so!

[ForestPines]

the various inscribed Pictish stones show that 'Pictish' is actually Brythonic (pre-Welsh Welsh, if you see what I mean), and close enough to modern Welsh that I can decipher many of the texts without difficulty.

 

Are you sure you're thinking of Pictish stones there? Evidence for the Pictish language is extremely limited, and most of the Pictish words that have survived are proper nouns; the vast majority of Pictish inscribed stones are "symbol stones" with images in a distinctive curvilinear style.

 

There are, of course, plenty of other inscribed stones with Brythonic inscriptions. They're not really Pictish, though. And we're not even sure really what the Picts' own name for themselves was!

[Nickinwestwales]

Hi all-back again :- to start with,a delightful example of synchronicity,to wit-on opening my crisp new copy of the Modeller yesterday,what do I find but an advert for the upcoming Continental Modeller featuring an article about....(drumroll)... La Trochita !!!-what are the odds on that then...?....Perhaps I should start a thread on the Hook Colliery line and see what emerges..

 

Adam-Many thanks for the clarification there sir..Good stuff.

 

John-another fascinating submission from you-I had no idea the Landsker line had been so finely plotted-I`m having a quiet smile imagining either the Lower Three as English speaking & the Castle & Friars as Welsh or the reverse (Pubs on the town square for those not local ) -I have heard all sorts of language in all of them,but little of it fit for publication............

 

Would the inscribed Pictish stones you mention include the Oggham stone up at Nevyn ? -My limited understanding (mostly gleaned from the Mabinogion & the like )was that even at that early time Pembs. had had a strong influx of Irish settlers (poss. as a result of dynastic marriages) that may have caused an early division in language between north & south

 

Now ,since you obviously know wherof you speak,a couple of posers for you.....The Mabinogion mentions Arberth (Narberth) as the capital ( for want of a better word ) of King Pwll`s little kingdom-but right by the sea and with a `hill with a burial mound on top`-now that sounds more like round the coast and up towards Newport to me:-Carn Ingli.....The narrative in the tale supports this theory,although I would welcome a definitive answer,and,just for fun-The origins of the Llangwm (where I live ) cry of "Stone him Johnny" (asking Nikki Boswell is cheating BTW )

 

Forestpines:-At risk of sounding flippant,I suspect the Picts name for themselves was....Us-In the same way that Cymraeg is `the comrades/people/US & Sasnaeg/Sassenach is stranger/enemy/THEM--life was a lot simpler then..........

 

 

 

O.K chaps-enjoy the weekend,get some useful modelling done...or just have fun in the sun...

 

Regards to all

 

 

 

Nick

 

P.S-Forgot to mention,the latest `modern` outpouring from Hornby is the single car 158 units that work from Pembroke Dock up to Cardiff..just perfect for the man that wants a 4` long diorama of Penally..Ever the cynic I`m afraid

[John_Hughes]

This is turning into a Wheeltappers topic!

 

First, yes, I do know of the pictorial Pictish stones - which I see according to a recent suggestion are actually 'language' rather than 'pictures' though I'm not at all sure I buy the idea.

 

But there are a number of others - usually of early Christian origin - which are usually described as Pictish and have writing on them in a version of the Latin alphabet (not Ogham, interestingly - and which are clearly Brythonic; there are casts of a number of them in Pictavia near Brechin, but most of the originals are still out there in the fields where they were first set up, while others have found their way into the walls of various buildings, often in an incomplete form.

 

The Mabinogion stories - wonderful tales - are really pagan relics, with the gods demoted to heroes for a more-or-less Christian audience, and the stories localised in places the tale-tellers (and their hearers) knew. So trying to identify them with anywhere for certain is fun but inconclusive - like trying to find Avalon or the home of the Lady of the Lake on an OS map. Characters like Lleu - whose name presumably means Light, and who is often taken to be a demoted sun-god - are localised in Wales, but his name also crops up all over the Celtic world, as in Lugovallum (Carlisle) and Lyons in France.

[ForestPines]

Would the inscribed Pictish stones you mention include the Oggham stone up at Nevyn ? -My limited understanding (mostly gleaned from the Mabinogion & the like )was that even at that early time Pembs. had had a strong influx of Irish settlers (poss. as a result of dynastic marriages) that may have caused an early division in language between north & south

 

Back then, the sea was the main form of transport, so there almost certainly would have been Irish visitors and settlers in Pembs - not to mention people from further afield; Iron Age Cornwall, for example, did considerable trade with the Mediterranean. "Pict", though, isn't generally used to describe anyone in Wales; they're thought to have been limited to north-east Scotland; although nobody really knows how far into the west of Scotland they extended, there isn't any Pictish archaeology south of Fife. Central Scotland was thoroughly Brythonic, at least until the Gododdin got themselves slaughered at the Battle of Catterick (and immortalised in one of the works of Taliesin); after that Edinburgh was securely English until late in the 1st millennium.

 

Now ,since you obviously know wherof you speak,a couple of posers for you.....The Mabinogion mentions Arberth (Narberth) as the capital ( for want of a better word ) of King Pwll`s little kingdom-but right by the sea and with a `hill with a burial mound on top`-now that sounds more like round the coast and up towards Newport to me:-Carn Ingli.....

 

Forestpines:-At risk of sounding flippant,I suspect the Picts name for themselves was....Us-In the same way that Cymraeg is `the comrades/people/US & Sasnaeg/Sassenach is stranger/enemy/THEM--life was a lot simpler then..........

 

You're probably right about the Pict's name for themselves there! There are oddities though - "Saxon" probably means "Swordsman".

 

As for the location of Pwyll's fort: you could well be right. It's one of those things that can never be proved - you could make a whole academic career out of debating that one point. Carn Ingli is definitely the right type of site. There have been innumerable academic articles written about that sort of thing - and lots of bad archaeology has been done to try to prove that a given site on the ground is or isn't a particular historical or mythological site - I say "bad archaeology" because archaeology isn't very good at giving you that sort of answer, so such archaeology tends to end up with extremely tenuous conclusions. The conclusion I'd take from your expertise is that whoever wrote down that part of the surviving text wasn't very familiar with Pembrokeshire, particularly with the Pembrokeshire of several hundred years previous, and either confused or conflated the two places.

 

I'm trying to think of a way to get this back onto railways - preferably Welsh ones! It's tricky though! Although I did mention Taliesin up there. If you ever build a fictional Welsh railway and need inspiration for loco names, the Mabinogion is probably a good source.

[James]

Brian, are the locos truly 'working' locos or are they for the benefit of visitors and tourists?

[Nickinwestwales]

Good evening gentlemen all,my round I think......

 

James-From the very few memories I have of seeing this line in print before I would guess ( and purely that) that it is a service train that runs interrmitantly-I.E-when funds are available-however lets wait and see-the article is forthcoming....

 

FORESTPINES-now-the saecs was the sword with which this particular bunch of hoodlums was associated and drew there name ( if I have the right of it )-so we are in the same area here....As to my `expertise`-in this area,you flatter me sir-I am merely interested in the area where I live,-further to the battle you mention:-Cattraeth ??-All I know is that it was `decisive`-rather like the Iceni against the legions ( a classic case of bad tactics) but back to the trains ( and well done you for the pointer) -heres a thought :-imagine one of those huge Baldwins (if thats what they are) on the same gauge W&L line-would lift any train up the Gollfa bank out of Welshpool,but imagine the pounding it would give the track-and would the run-round at Llanfair be long enough to let it out ?

 

 

 

JOHN-Will be back to you later-have had a fierce day at work and several beers-your submission will require my full attention

 

Whilst on the railway topic,myself & Missisnick are getting married in a few weeks and have a plan in mind for a honeymoon -The W.H.R (although I have a problem with their attitude R.E the W.H.H.R) , The W&LR ( I hope they have the new coaches out ) & the Corris Rly (gotta love their `can do` attitude-original engines working up the road-no worries,lets build some new ones.....,try and call in on the VoR -see if they have a second engine working yet ( last time #9 `Prince of Wales` was doing everything)...apparently we will be doing other stuff as well-visiting Chester Zoo etc...we shall see...hohoho

 

Sleep well,be happy,

 

speak soon

 

Nick

 

 

[John_Hughes]

Dragging this back to a combination of railways and folklore, how about Myrddin Emrys - aka Merlin?

[Nickinwestwales]

John-Hi :- Had a little ride out behind one of the Fairlies a few years ago-the new one,I forget the name-very impressive machine...lifted 8 fairly heavy looking coaches ( lightly loaded to be sure ) out of the Harbour & up to Tan-Y-Bwlch without apparent effort....As we were climbing down the path from the station we could hear the bark of the engine bouncing back from the valley walls...Hit all the right notes

 

Continuing the Celtic crossover,Would love to have a ride out behind the new Taliesin :-By all accounts,the original was a well liked and free running engine-which presumably explains its relatively short life-worked into an early demise...

 

 

 

Changing the subject slightly,do you have any idea where the narrow gauge engines from Trecwn ended up ?? -The wagons seem to be everywhere (You havn`t arrived until you have a pair of R.N.A.D roof loaders in the yard ) I recall seeing that at least the last two had been bought for what sounded like continued service rather than scrap value...........??

 

 

 

ATB

 

Nick

 

 

[Bilbo]

There has been a fairly recent book published on this line "Narrow Gauge Rails to Esquel" it was from Plateway Press I think. It is out of print at the moment.

[Phil Traxson]

John-Hi :- Had a little ride out behind one of the Fairlies a few years ago-the new one,I forget the name-very impressive machine...lifted 8 fairly heavy looking coaches ( lightly loaded to be sure ) out of the Harbour & up to Tan-Y-Bwlch without apparent effort....As we were climbing down the path from the station we could hear the bark of the engine bouncing back from the valley walls...Hit all the right notes

 

 

8 coaches is top load for 'Linda' and 'Blanche' the Fairlies will take 12, in good nick they would take more but the track circuits in the passing loops aren't long enough.

 

Phil Traxson