Return to UK Modelling ?

[Nearholmer]

Watching this thread and scratching my head a bit. Could be nits, of course, but I think it’s because I’m somewhat bemused.

 

Either you are ‘moved’ enough by U.K. prototypes of xyz date/type/company to want to create a layout based around them, or you aren’t. 
 

If you are, then you will overcome all the qualms you have, either by accepting compromises, or by scratch/kit building.

 

If you aren’t, then you will use perceived deficiencies in r-t-r material as a means to put yourself off.

 

So, what moves you most DB/DR, or BR?

 

Once you’ve settled that, the rest will follow.

[SamThomas]

13 hours ago, Allegheny1600 said:

FWIW, I do still have some British 00 stock that’s relatively modern and while they’re quite nice, I find the running quality is not up to quality of modern H0 standards. Other pundits will disagree I’m sure!

& there I think is part of the issue for me, from what I see UK RTR still has some catching up to do & TBH I'm a little dissapointed.

 

Probably a good idea as suggested to buy some stock & see how it pans out.

 

ATM, I have no intension of getting rid of my European stock, just in case.

 

I tend to avoid Model Railway Clubs/Society's as I generally find them to be a bit cliquey, hopefully when the shows restart..............

[SamThomas]

15 hours ago, Jeff Smith said:

Does the DB Class 50 have flangeless centre drivers?  Or are you saying that it hasn't but the model still goes round tight curves?

The DB 50's (& every other 2-10-0 that I have come accross) has fully flanged "drivers" (as per the prototype) & will negotoate R1 curves.

[SamThomas]

On 01/02/2022 at 19:25, Happy Hippo said:

If you wish to return to British Outline and are expressing dissatisfaction with, I presume, 4 mm scale, then don't do it, as nobody if forcing you down that road.

 

Since you're effectively starting from scratch, so you could opt for 7 mm scale if you want detail, or N gauge if you want to run big trains in the countryside.

Whilst admiring the O gauge offerings I already have some G1/45mm in the garden.

 

I've had a couple of forays into N in the past & It just is not "me".

 

Thanks for the suggestions anyway.

[Allegheny1600]

Hi Sam,

 I think that I am in a very similar situation to yourself, my apologies for being crotchety previously!

 I also am very tempted by some of today’s forthcoming items, it is appealing to see the standards being advertised and I really hope such models can live up to their promises. I think they will as the people concerned are not Dave Jones types.

My previous problems with UK 00 steam outline models have been main driving wheels that don’t run true, huge loco to tender gaps, lack of traction and general poor assembly/finish.

 I once checked out four or five different examples of a Bachmann pannier tank in my local hobby shop and the shop owner and myself rejected every one. That day I took home something red and black instead. That may have been 10 years ago now but twenty years before that, I would never have had such a problem with German stuff.

Having started my modelling career in the 1970s with secondhand 1960s Triang and Hornby stuff, learning how to dismantle them and make them work as well as possible before moving onto European stuff by the mid 1980s and yes - stripping some of these down and rebuilding them, I consider myself reasonably competent as a modeller.

 

 I don’t like having to dismantle models though, I only do it as a necessity and I shouldn’t have to do it as a matter of course which seems to happen to 50% of my 00 models. Hence why I have only two RTR 00 and two kit built locos remaining and they are split GWR and SR. You can imagine which models are appealing to me now.

Hence, I am keeping my fingers tightly crossed that models from the new smaller UK outline makers are the ones to watch rather than Hornby and Bachmann - hopefully they too will pull their socks up and ensure at the least some proper quality control.

 

All this is not to say that European H0 models are always perfect, far from it! I have read on German forums that latest Trix models have arrived with bits broken off, the first new Piko steam locos had many problems running on digital control, poor paint work/graphics on some Roco models and so forth.

There have always been problem models, some can be solved easily, some not. All I know is that, of my 100+ H0 euro collection, any problems have been easier to fix than equivalent 00 models. By the way, my collection of American H0 is probably slightly more reliable even than my euro collection but that’s likely due to the higher concentration of diesel locomotives there.

 

[SamThomas]

15 hours ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

There are or have been a fair number of decent Southern-based locos — Bachmann 'C' class, 'N' and 'E4'; Hornby 'M7' and 'H', plus the Kernow/EFE 'O2' and Beattie well tank, plus others I'm not familiar with I'm sure.

 

I think the big continental locos — like the 01 you refer to — rely on a lot of sideways slop on the axles. Perhaps the larger flanges  used, and the extra clearance on the real locos, help.

Thanks, the ear I will be looking at will be the last steam days/early electrics. I've always loved the Bullieds (MN's ect) & the Q1's I'd buy a Leader if someone made one (IIRC someone did have plans) - always room for the odd special & rule 1 of course.

 

The larger European steam Locomotives did rely on a lot of "slop" & occasionally not always sucessfully, so not everything is perfect from Europe (see a later post).

The larger flanges on older models may have helped but they are much finer thesdays (maybe UK models are better in this respect).

Edited February 5, 2022 by SamThomas

[SamThomas]

15 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Watching this thread and scratching my head a bit. Could be nits, of course, but I think it’s because I’m somewhat bemused.

 

Either you are ‘moved’ enough by U.K. prototypes of xyz date/type/company to want to create a layout based around them, or you aren’t. 
 

If you are, then you will overcome all the qualms you have, either by accepting compromises, or by scratch/kit building.

 

If you aren’t, then you will use perceived deficiencies in r-t-r material as a means to put yourself off.

 

So, what moves you most DB/DR, or BR?

 

Once you’ve settled that, the rest will follow.

Good points but I should have made it clear that if I do return to these shores I will not be getting rid of my European Rolling Stock.

 

I'll be looking at creating a separate layout, but having said that I may look at the feasability of creating a layout "to watch the trains go by" with little infrastructure to I.D. the location - then I can run UK or EU, maybe it will work, maybe it's just a rubbish idea.

 

It's a great pity about the scale difference - I have no qualms about running a Glaskasten & an ICE train at the same time so would be quite happy to exercise Rule 1.

 

 

[SamThomas]

20 minutes ago, Allegheny1600 said:

Hi Sam,

 I think that I am in a very similar situation to yourself, my apologies for being crotchety previously!

 I also am very tempted by some of today’s forthcoming items, it is appealing to see the standards being advertised and I really hope such models can live up to their promises. I think they will as the people concerned are not Dave Jones types.

My previous problems with UK 00 steam outline models have been main driving wheels that don’t run true, huge loco to tender gaps, lack of traction and general poor assembly/finish.

 I once checked out four or five different examples of a Bachmann pannier tank in my local hobby shop and the shop owner and myself rejected every one. That day I took home something red and black instead. That may have been 10 years ago now but twenty years before that, I would never have had such a problem with German stuff.

Having started my modelling career in the 1970s with secondhand 1960s Triang and Hornby stuff, learning how to dismantle them and make them work as well as possible before moving onto European stuff by the mid 1980s and yes - stripping some of these down and rebuilding them, I consider myself reasonably competent as a modeller.

 

 I don’t like having to dismantle models though, I only do it as a necessity and I shouldn’t have to do it as a matter of course which seems to happen to 50% of my 00 models. Hence why I have only two RTR 00 and two kit built locos remaining and they are split GWR and SR. You can imagine which models are appealing to me now.

Hence, I am keeping my fingers tightly crossed that models from the new smaller UK outline makers are the ones to watch rather than Hornby and Bachmann - hopefully they too will pull their socks up and ensure at the least some proper quality control.

 

All this is not to say that European H0 models are always perfect, far from it! I have read on German forums that latest Trix models have arrived with bits broken off, the first new Piko steam locos had many problems running on digital control, poor paint work/graphics on some Roco models and so forth.

There have always been problem models, some can be solved easily, some not. All I know is that, of my 100+ H0 euro collection, any problems have been easier to fix than equivalent 00 models. By the way, my collection of American H0 is probably slightly more reliable even than my euro collection but that’s likely due to the higher concentration of diesel locomotives there.

 

No problem John & no need to apolgise.

 

Your "potted history" is very similar to mine.

 

I've more or less stopped buying new EU prototypes now (we have similar sized fleets) but could the issues with some recent EU prototypes have anything to do with the country of manufacture ?

 

In the interests of ballance I have in the past found a number of issues with EU manufactures/models & some come into my category of "unacceptable" ;

 

Lilliput (Austria) BR05 in photographic Grey.

Beautiful looking powerful Locomotive but the Locomotive itself "crabbed" so after spending some time as a showcase queen off it went.

 

Trix BR05 in black & streamlined.

Beautiful Locomotive but could only pull ariound 6 coaches (AFAIK the prototype was only used on short & fast trains). Also, the speaker was in the tender & once my ears became aware that the "chuff" were coming from the end I did not use the sound (a small speaker in the smokebox would have solved that) - that went back to Germany.

Backput 2-6-0 SNCB Locomotive - never really ran well despite the attention from a semi-professional model maker.

 

Trix BR44.

Very dissapointed in this one - when it arrived I was dismayed to find the cab firebox taking up the whole cab to accomodate the motor. There was also a clearly visible gearwheel on the side of the chassis near the cab.

 

Piko ICE-3.

Very prone to derailing (I sold my Trix version to pay for it - that never derailed, even at warp speed).

 

Flesichman BR614 DMU.

Huge motor visible through the windows.

 

Heljan Norhab.

Not very smooth from day one - motor failed, Heljan borderline rude about it, motor replaced but still a "duff".

 

Brawa Ludmilla.

Lost it's driver one end - back to Brawa, repaired & never what you would expect running wise from Brawa.

 

Fleischmann Generally.

A common (but easy fix) issue was the soldering on the wires going to the motor bogies on diesel/OHE Locomotives.

 

With the exception of the Fleischmann all the above were sold on eBay as "non-runners".

 

So, the EU manufactures are not 100% either.

 

[Allegheny1600]

Hi Sam,

Thanks for your reply and thanks for the gen on both makes of BR05 - that is a loco that I would have liked to add to my fleet - one day! It would be a nice to have model rather than part of my focussed fleet.

The Bachput 2-6-0, I would agree with and that’s supposed to be one of their better models!

Sorry to hear about your Piko ICE3, apart from a ‘coggy’ motor which I replaced with a Mashima, mine runs very well.

I agree about all your other points only I will add that I too, had a Heljan Nohab in my Danish days, it was rubbish and as for what I’ve read about their very nice looking 0-8-0 diesel, well it sounds really bad.

In my opinion, Heljan are a bit of a joke in the euro market.

 

Finally, yes! An awful lot of these problems (but not all) are due to being made in the Far East. The second major problem is the bean counters “cheapening” models by putting cheap and nasty motors in for example or refusing proper quality control.

Sorry! I’ve dragged the subject away from your original post.

Cheers,

 John

[Jeff Smith]

There are two major stages in the quality of RTR, British, US or the rest of the world.  Design and manufacture.  Both need to be done well to get a good model.  AFAIK Bachmann has it's own factory in China which probably manufactures it's whole range, N, OO, HO, O and G.  Although the designs may be done in different countries there will probably be some common parts such as wheels, motors, etc that are shared but design principals may vary from country to country.  From its newsletters it seems that Rapido does all the design work in Canada and has quite a bit of influence over the quality of manufacturing facility but there may well be other small companies products also being assembled there.

 

To take a well documented recent problem, the Heljan 009 Lynton and Barnstable loco that suffered a number of problems with pony trucks and motion separation was I believe redesigned and may have even had production moved to a different factory.

 

I stand to be corrected on any of the above points......

[F-UnitMad]

I left British outline OO around 30 years ago, and will never return; it's mostly to do with couplers.

The tension-lock is a stone age abomination, even in it's slimline form, but the Kadee buckeye looks equally wrong on models where the prototype didn't have such fitted.

Scale couplers restrict the radius that is practical, and are far too small for me to deal with these days anyway.

 

[SamThomas]

46 minutes ago, F-UnitMad said:

I left British outline OO around 30 years ago, and will never return; it's mostly to do with couplers.

The tension-lock is a stone age abomination, even in it's slimline form, but the Kadee buckeye looks equally wrong on models where the prototype didn't have such fitted.

Scale couplers restrict the radius that is practical, and are far too small for me to deal with these days anyway.

 

I really don't see why the tension lock has survived to this day.

I've never got on with Kadee's & tend to use the Fleischmann Profi (as do a lot of UK modellers that I know).

Some time ago I did have at the back of my mind the possibility of US freight only - no need to worry about the distances between vehicles or lighting in coaches.

[PaulaDoesTrains]

5 hours ago, Jeff Smith said:

There are two major stages in the quality of RTR, British, US or the rest of the world.  Design and manufacture.  Both need to be done well to get a good model.  AFAIK Bachmann has it's own factory in China which probably manufactures it's whole range, N, OO, HO, O and G.  Although the designs may be done in different countries there will probably be some common parts such as wheels, motors, etc that are shared but design principals may vary from country to country.  From its newsletters it seems that Rapido does all the design work in Canada and has quite a bit of influence over the quality of manufacturing facility but there may well be other small companies products also being assembled there.

 

To take a well documented recent problem, the Heljan 009 Lynton and Barnstable loco that suffered a number of problems with pony trucks and motion separation was I believe redesigned and may have even had production moved to a different factory.

 

I stand to be corrected on any of the above points......

 

This blog post is some years old now

 

https://thebusinessofmodels.wordpress.com/2015/03/27/Hornby-paid-0-5m-to-end-its-chinese-supplier-misery/

 

but explains what happened when Bachmanns's parent company, Kader, bought Sanda Kan.

[Jeff Smith]

This thread is interesting in so far as the discussion is centred on the quality of the RTR equipment rather than interest in reproducing a particular railway system or company.....

 

The contrary view of course is make the best use of what is available for a particular railway or era of interest and try to improve or kit build as appropriate!

 

Regarding couplings, Kadee are excellent but of course are designed to represent a prototype coupling on vehicles without twin buffers.  So any centre buffing coupler has to maintain unprototypical vehicle spacing with twin buffers to prevent buffer locking.  Unfortunately the only way to accurately represent UK and other twin buffered vehicles is with sprung buffers and a screw type coupling, and of course relaxed curves.

[HonestTom]

On 05/02/2022 at 22:13, Jeff Smith said:

This thread is interesting in so far as the discussion is centred on the quality of the RTR equipment rather than interest in reproducing a particular railway system or company.....

 

The contrary view of course is make the best use of what is available for a particular railway or era of interest and try to improve or kit build as appropriate!

 

 

I have a book from the 80s on budget modelling that includes a bit about a layout based on Robin Hood's Bay whose builder went representative rather than literal, with a "close enough" approach. So passenger trains were Hornby Gresleys hauled by an Airfix N2 with a Mainline J72 on shunting and a Lima J50 on goods. I think there's a lot to be said for that approach if you want to dip your toe into modelling a subject without making a huge time/money commitment. Then you can upgrade if you like it or sell if you don't.

Edited February 9, 2022 by HonestTom