OO Gauge GWR Toplight Mainline & City Coaches announced

[Guardian]

Dear All,

 

As I recently aquired set 3 (choc/cream twin cities crest) of the Toplight City coaches, I am curious about the proper traction of such set prior to the introduction of GWR 61XX class in 1931.

 

Was it simply the preceding sub-classes, I.e. classes 5101 and 3100/5100? Or (also) something completely different?

 

Thank you.

 

Best,

Mark 

[Penrhos1920]

17 minutes ago, Guardian said:

Dear All,

 

As I recently aquired set 3 (choc/cream twin cities crest) of the Toplight City coaches, I am curious about the proper traction of such set prior to the introduction of GWR 61XX class in 1931.

 

Was it simply the preceding sub-classes, I.e. classes 5101 and 3100/5100? Or (also) something completely different?

 

Thank you.

 

Best,

Mark 

 

 

Metro tanks, eg 458 or County tanks

[Coppercap]

5 hours ago, Guardian said:

Dear All,

 

As I recently aquired set 3 (choc/cream twin cities crest) of the Toplight City coaches, I am curious about the proper traction of such set prior to the introduction of GWR 61XX class in 1931.

 

Was it simply the preceding sub-classes, I.e. classes 5101 and 3100/5100? Or (also) something completely different?

 

Thank you.

 

Best,

Mark 

 

Typically one of these, a 'Large Metro'. This one, 3599 (seen here in the twilight of its career away from London), was a Southall engine for a long time, and my great grandfather most definitely drove it  - he was on the suburban trains in and out of Paddington for over 20 years up until retirement in 1924. Many 'Metros' didn't have cabs, only spectacle plates, even as late as the early 1920s ('get wets', they called them) and these were condenser apparatus fitted for running on into the City over the Metropolitan, which was what these coaches were designed for. 'County Tank' 4-4-2Ts were also used in and out of Paddington, though unlikely over the Metropolitan lines.

 

[The Johnster]

I'm sure I remember reading that 45xx were used on Paddington suburban work in the 1920s, though probably not on any Mainline & City services. But Metros, County Tanks, and the inside cylinder praires (39xx?) converted from Dean Goods locos would be the main contenders.  The 31xx large prairies, despite being developed into the 61xx which were very much associated with Paddington suburban work, were originally concieved as short-haul main line freight engines, and were uncommon in the London area.

[melmerby]

48 minutes ago, Coppercap said:

County Tank' 4-4-2Ts were also used in and out of Paddington, though unlikely over the Metropolitan lines.

A definte no-no I would've thought due to their height, some 7" taller than a 61XX and considerably heavier on the driving wheels

[Steamport Southport]

2 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

I'm sure I remember reading that 45xx were used on Paddington suburban work in the 1920s, though probably not on any Mainline & City services. But Metros, County Tanks, and the inside cylinder praires (39xx?) converted from Dean Goods locos would be the main contenders.  The 31xx large prairies, despite being developed into the 61xx which were very much associated with Paddington suburban work, were originally concieved as short-haul main line freight engines, and were uncommon in the London area.

 

I believe the 39XXs spent almost all their existence as 2-6-2Ts in the Midlands and then some moved to South Wales when the Large Prairies turned up in number.

 

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrbsh1765.htm

 

They were rebuilt as a stop gap until they had built the 46XXs that was intended to work the Midlands suburban trains, but that was deemed a failure and likewise ended up working in Wales.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GWR_4600_Class

 

 

Jason

[Penrhos1920]

On 16/03/2024 at 16:19, Guardian said:

Dear All,

 

As I recently aquired set 3 (choc/cream twin cities crest) of the Toplight City coaches, I am curious about the proper traction of such set prior to the introduction of GWR 61XX class in 1931.

 

Was it simply the preceding sub-classes, I.e. classes 5101 and 3100/5100? Or (also) something completely different?

 

Thank you.

 

Best,

Mark 

 

Where the city trains hauled by Metropolitan electrics after the metropolitan was electrified around 1908?

[Guardian]

On 16/03/2024 at 22:56, Coppercap said:

 

Typically one of these, a 'Large Metro'. 'County Tank' 4-4-2Ts were also used in and out of Paddington, though unlikely over the Metropolitan lines.

 

 

Hi Penrhos1920 and Coppercap,

 

Thank you for mentioning these two types which would be an attractive tractionfor the Toplight City coaches. Unfortunately, none of the is available or announced as an RTR 00 model. Maybe one day...

 

Until then, I will have to obtain a 61XX class to provide adequate traction.

 

[Coach bogie]

As  Johnster says, there were a lot of 45xx in the Paddington area. In the image below it is a a possibility that the 4575, preparing to be released could go on the end of the Mainline and city stock. In addition, the stock was known to be used on High Wycombe trains both direct and via Maidenhead. A Metro tank would have an issue climbing the bank from the branch up to Wycombe and larger engines were the norm on that route. 

 

There is a view in this link that shows a big prairie at the head of a train of M&C stock at Paddington.

https://www.mediastorehouse.co.uk/mary-evans-prints-online/paddington-station-platform-5-6-london-14126978.html

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

Edited March 20 by Coach bogie

[Coppercap]

1 hour ago, Guardian said:

 

Hi Penrhos1920 and Coppercap,

 

Thank you for mentioning these two types which would be an attractive tractionfor the Toplight City coaches. Unfortunately, none of the is available or announced as an RTR 00 model. Maybe one day...

I'm well aware of that - a Metro tank has been on my wishlist for a while, even though it'll never happen...

[Miss Prism]

On 16/03/2024 at 22:57, melmerby said:

A definte no-no I would've thought due to their height, some 7" taller than a 61XX and considerably heavier on the driving wheels

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/rtw501/6847737334/

 

[Coppercap]

32 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/rtw501/6847737334/

 

Though that's not running on Metropolitan lines.

[Miss Prism]

True, but the nature of the enquiry was a bit ambiguous - apologies for the confusion.

 

I'm trying to find a pic of a Metropolitan Bo-Bo with the stock.

 

Edit: This is the pic I had in the back of my mind, but I think that is articulated stock rather than H&C.

 

 

Edited March 21 by Miss Prism
Met Bo-Bo pic reference added

[Coppercap]

2 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

True, but the nature of the enquiry was a bit ambiguous - apologies for the confusion.

 

I'm trying to find a pic of a Metropolitan Bo-Bo with the stock.

 

Edit: This is the pic I had in the back of my mind, but I think that is articulated stock rather than H&C.

 

 

Looking at the 1922 Bradshaws (admittedly thats several years before this photo with the Met Bo-Bo), morning through GW trains to Liverpool Street started at Southall or West Drayton with one train from Windsor & Eton. Regarding this photo, I wonder where the loco was changed? 

 

Edit. Since found this:

 

Edited March 21 by Coppercap

[Ian Hargrave]

2 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

True, but the nature of the enquiry was a bit ambiguous - apologies for the confusion.

 

I'm trying to find a pic of a Metropolitan Bo-Bo with the stock.

 

Edit: This is the pic I had in the back of my mind, but I think that is articulated stock rather than H&C.

 

 

 
A fascinating photo. And just maybe a reason for using the Heljan loco ? 

[Bulwell Hall]

13 hours ago, Coach bogie said:

As  Johnster says, there were a lot of 45xx in the Paddington area. In the image below it is a a possibility that the 4575, preparing to be released could go on the end of the Mainline and city stock. In addition, the stock was known to be used on High Wycombe trains both direct and via Maidenhead. A Metro tank would have an issue climbing the bank from the branch up to Wycombe and larger engines were the norm on that route. 

 

There is a view in this link that shows a big prairie at the head of a train of M&C stock at Paddington.

https://www.mediastorehouse.co.uk/mary-evans-prints-online/paddington-station-platform-5-6-london-14126978.html

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

Another interesting feature of this photo is what appears to be an auto trailer in the platform next to the Mainline and City set.  I wasn't aware that these worked in to Paddington?

[Coppercap]

29 minutes ago, Bulwell Hall said:

Another interesting feature of this photo is what appears to be an auto trailer in the platform next to the Mainline and City set.  I wasn't aware that these worked in to Paddington?

I think you will find that it's actually a slip coach. These had end windows and gongs.

Edited March 21 by Coppercap

[The Johnster]

There is a slip coach on the end of the train to the left of the Mainline & City set, but there is an auto to the right of it.  Autos worked into Paddington on inner suburban jobs; in fact, the bulk of auto work was of a city suburban main line nature despite our association with them on bucolic rural branches.  The steam railmotors, on which you bought your ticket on the train, that they were developed from were initially a response to the spread of urban tram networks into new city suburbs, along with what were originally called ‘haltes’

[Steamport Southport]

I would suggest that is the Greenford train. I can't think of any other autotrains from Paddington. Worked by a 14XX from Slough in later days.

 

 

 

Jason

 

 

[Hal Nail]

Just now, Steamport Southport said:

I would suggest that is the Greenford train. I can't think of any other autotrains from Paddington. Worked by a 14XX from Slough in later days.

Those were the days. Change at West Ealing now to a shuttle, carefully timed so it doesn't connect with anything in either direction.

[phil-b259]

35 minutes ago, Hal Nail said:

Those were the days. Change at West Ealing now to a shuttle, carefully timed so it doesn't connect with anything in either direction.

 

Thats not surprising, but done for sound reasons. Elizabeth line trains (which is what you have to change on to at Ealing) run at irregular intervals because thats the only way of pathing them (plus freight etc) along the GWML. Changing them would result in a significant reduction in the number of trains which can be provided which is not sensible given passenger loading on Elizabeth line services while the Greenford shuttle timings are also constrained as its operated by a single unit which cannot wait around to make connections without making the service frequency on the branch even worse.

 

Of course the Greenford end does have a pretty frequent central line service which can be utilised rather than going via West Ealing if central London is your destination...

 

But none of the above (including your observations) are of any relevance to the thread which is about model coaching stock

Edited March 21 by phil-b259

[The Johnster]

  As the GW regarded it's open saloon auto-trailers as saloons, they were usually given the best current main line livery, and WR continued this practice post-nationalisation, applying the gangwayed main line stock crimson/cream livery to them.  The story goes that, one day in 1950 Mr.Riddles was passing through Paddington about his business, and spotted one of these auto-trailers, resulting in a letter to WR head office at Paddington enquiring what his top express livery was doing on a lowly auto-trailer.  Thereafter, auto-trailers were painted in the correct unlined crimson livery, but those painted in the crimson/cream were left in service in that livery until their overhauls were due.  As this was nominally every seven years, auto-trailers painted in crimson/cream post 1949 may well have missed the unlined plain crimson livery altogether, being repainted into 1956 unlined maroon; many of course were being withdrawn at this time and would have ended their careers in crimson/cream.  AFAIK no trailers of earlier origin than the all-steel Collett A27, A28, and A30 diagrams survived long enough to recieve 1959 lined maroon livery.

[LondonCharivari]

9 hours ago, Coppercap said:

Looking at the 1922 Bradshaws (admittedly thats several years before this photo with the Met Bo-Bo), morning through GW trains to Liverpool Street started at Southall or West Drayton with one train from Windsor & Eton. Regarding this photo, I wonder where the loco was changed? 

 

Edit. Since found this:

 

There was a similar discussion on the District Dave forum many moons ago which may be of some interest around this topic 

 

https://districtdavesforum.co.uk/thread/19392/met-electric-loco-on

[Ian Hargrave]

On 21/03/2024 at 09:50, Ian Hargrave said:

 
A fascinating photo. And just maybe a reason for using the Heljan loco ? 

Which,in searching for something I didn’t find,I found. Heljan 9001 Met./BoBo 9 John Milton. A whim purchase at Warley years ago when they were released and never used because I didn’t have suitable stock. It is a beautiful little thing .So then just maybe an excuse for some City Toplights. Just a thought ? 

[melmerby]

What are people using to haul a full rake of 6?

Many of my locos wont make it up a rising grade with them, including Dapol Mogul & Hornby 61XX.

Even with extra mass in the 61XX, it's a struggle but sails up with 6 Hornby Colletts.