Train driver convicted after crashing train at nearly three times speed limit - Merseyside

[Free At Last]

A train driver who was using WhatsApp less than thirty seconds before he crashed his train at nearly three times the speed limit has been convicted, following a British Transport Police investigation. 
https://www.btp.police.uk/news/btp/news/in-the-courts/train-driver-convicted-after-crashing-train-at-nearly-three-times-speed-limit---merseyside/

Edited February 9, 2022 by Free At Last

[nightstar.train]

What on Earth possessed him to be using his phone and sending messages when he was driving a train?! I'm glad he's been convicted and fired. Lucky he did this at the end of the line and at a relatively low speed (40 mph). Imagine if he'd been distracted sending messages at a busy junction and sailed through a signal into the path of something else. I would hope that this sort of behaviour is very rare amongst drivers and this conviction will be a wake up call to any who are stupid enough to text and drive. Although given the number of idiots you see still using phones whilst driving cars it may be a forlorn hope. 

[Simon Lee]

26 minutes ago, nightstar.train said:

What on Earth possessed him to be using his phone and sending messages when he was driving a train?! I'm glad he's been convicted and fired. Lucky he did this at the end of the line and at a relatively low speed (40 mph). Imagine if he'd been distracted sending messages at a busy junction and sailed through a signal into the path of something else. I would hope that this sort of behaviour is very rare amongst drivers and this conviction will be a wake up call to any who are stupid enough to text and drive. Although given the number of idiots you see still using phones whilst driving cars it may be a forlorn hope. 

 

It's rare, from a former  Controllers point if view we would never phone a driver when his train was reasonably expected to be moving, but send a text requesting "phone Control when safe to do so"  Likewise if a driver rang and it was obvious he was moving,, he would be told "ring back when your stationary" and the call terminated.

 

Obviously you can never legislate for friends and family, but normally the professionalism of the driver would influence his behaviour. 

 

Your comment about road users made me realise, that, since moving to Germany, l can not actually remember the last time l saw anyone using a handheld mobile whilst driving, maybe a cultural thing or that there are generally more police about and the penalties are more severe ?

[phil-b259]

49 minutes ago, nightstar.train said:

What on Earth possessed him to be using his phone and sending messages when he was driving a train?! I'm glad he's been convicted and fired. Lucky he did this at the end of the line and at a relatively low speed (40 mph). Imagine if he'd been distracted sending messages at a busy junction and sailed through a signal into the path of something else. I would hope that this sort of behaviour is very rare amongst drivers and this conviction will be a wake up call to any who are stupid enough to text and drive. Although given the number of idiots you see still using phones whilst driving cars it may be a forlorn hope. 

 

TPWS would most likely prevent life threatening collisions due to driver inattention at junctions. 

 

In fact I'm surprised there wasn't an TPWS overspeed sensor setup on the approach to Kirkby to prevent buffer stop collisions.

 

 

[Wheatley]

8 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

In fact I'm surprised there wasn't an TPWS overspeed sensor setup on the approach to Kirkby to prevent buffer stop collisions.

 

 

There is. He was only doing 28mph when he hit the buffers. 

[John M Upton]

Most TOC company policy is that all times when in the active cab of a train, all phones, tablets, smart watches, etc are switched off.  No arguments and a potentially sackable offence if you have an incident and they discover you had your phone on.

 

The only time a driver is permitted to have a phone on in the cab is when stationary, in an emergency and when other forms of communication are not available.  With the advent of the GSMR radio system, effectively a carphone in many ways, mobile usage requirements are practically none.

[Mike_Walker]

1 hour ago, John M Upton said:

Most TOC company policy is that all times when in the active cab of a train, all phones, tablets, smart watches, etc are switched off.  No arguments and a potentially sackable offence if you have an incident and they discover you had your phone on.

 

The only time a driver is permitted to have a phone on in the cab is when stationary, in an emergency and when other forms of communication are not available.  With the advent of the GSMR radio system, effectively a carphone in many ways, mobile usage requirements are practically none.

In my experience that rule applies not just to the driver but anyone else who may be riding in the cab - with authorisation of course!

[The Stationmaster]

19 hours ago, nightstar.train said:

What on Earth possessed him to be using his phone and sending messages when he was driving a train?! I'm glad he's been convicted and fired. Lucky he did this at the end of the line and at a relatively low speed (40 mph). Imagine if he'd been distracted sending messages at a busy junction and sailed through a signal into the path of something else. I would hope that this sort of behaviour is very rare amongst drivers and this conviction will be a wake up call to any who are stupid enough to text and drive. Although given the number of idiots you see still using phones whilst driving cars it may be a forlorn hope. 

There have been past instances where SPADs were directly traced back to Drivers being distracted when using mobile 'phones while driving hence the ban on using the things.  I don't normally agree with railway staff receiving criminal convictions when involved in incidents but in this case the man clearly ignored a very clear prohibition with no genuine extraneous circumstances.

[Ncarter2]

8 hours ago, Mike_Walker said:

In my experience that rule applies not just to the driver but anyone else who may be riding in the cab - with authorisation of course!

Indeed, when my cab pass is renewed, there is a document that I sign to say I have read and fully understand driving cab etiquette. NR is hot on it if they receive a report of one of their staff not following the rules. I’ve been made aware of an individual being banned from holding a cab pass following a report being made. 

[Shedmaster]

44 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

There have been past instances where SPADs were directly traced back to Drivers being distracted when using mobile 'phones while driving hence the ban on using the things.  I don't normally agree with railway staff receiving criminal convictions when involved in incidents but in this case the man clearly ignored a very clear prohibition with no genuine extraneous circumstances.

 

Hi Mr Stationmaster, 

 

Whilst not wishing to challenge your point, I would like to respectfully ask/clarify something please if I may? 

 

Were our Train Driver Mobile Phone 

regs not kicked into touch after a fatal collision/derailment in California some years ago, due to the Driver texting? 

 

I seem to remember there was a huge tightening of our rules soon after this, or at least, I thought it was around the same time? 

 

Finally, I struggle to believe that Railway Staff are still stupid enough to take drugs or use mobile phones etc in todays railway environment, as we all know full well the career ending consequences when inevitably caught, doesn't make sense to me. 

 

Kindest Regards, 

 

Shed. 

[Ncarter2]

33 minutes ago, Shedmaster said:

Finally, I struggle to believe that Railway Staff are still stupid enough to take drugs or use mobile phones etc in todays railway environment, as we all know full well the career ending consequences when inevitably caught, doesn't make sense to me. 

Unfortunately, while it certainly is less these days, there are still a number of staff across the rail industry that are dismissed for failing to comply with this requirement. One of the problems that exist will be we simply don’t appreciate what someone may be dealing with outside of the railway, and that is just one aspect, there are some who see themselves as clever enough to never be caught. What most may see as illogical, some will see no concern. 

[Titan]

12 hours ago, Wheatley said:

There is. He was only doing 28mph when he hit the buffers. 

 

Why does the system allow him to hit the buffers at "only" double the speed limit, (give or take a couple of mph)  after already having slowed considerably due to a driver initiated emergency brake application at three times the speed limit?

[great central]

42 minutes ago, Ncarter2 said:

Unfortunately, while it certainly is less these days, there are still a number of staff across the rail industry that are dismissed for failing to comply with this requirement. One of the problems that exist will be we simply don’t appreciate what someone may be dealing with outside of the railway, and that is just one aspect, there are some who see themselves as clever enough to never be caught. What most may see as illogical, some will see no concern. 

 

There is, or should be, support mechanisms provided by employers to deal with anything outside work likely to cause  serious distraction and problems. However that does rely on employees acknowledging that a problem exists in the first place, which is often the biggest hurdle to overcome.

If someone thinks they're above being caught it's only a matter of time.......

[Ncarter2]

1 hour ago, great central said:

 

There is, or should be, support mechanisms provided by employers to deal with anything outside work likely to cause  serious distraction and problems. However that does rely on employees acknowledging that a problem exists in the first place, which is often the biggest hurdle to overcome.

If someone thinks they're above being caught it's only a matter of time.......

Exactly that, I will say, the rail industry has really invested in its people and their welfare / wellbeing. More are reaching out for help and support, there are also much better programs, the stigma is also beginning to fade towards those who ask for help or admit to having a problem. 
Those who are fully aware of what they are doing and continue to do so are the dangerous ones, and IMO, they tend to get others hurt or worse before being caught out. 

[Wheatley]

2 hours ago, Titan said:

 

Why does the system allow him to hit the buffers at "only" double the speed limit, (give or take a couple of mph)  after already having slowed considerably due to a driver initiated emergency brake application at three times the speed limit?

The BTP report doesn't say exactly where his emergency brake application was made, I believe there is  set of TPWS loops further out from the final 'bay platform' set but I'm not that familiar with the location.  The RAIB hasn't reported yet so as far as I know the full sequence of events is not  yet in the public domain. I'm as intrigued as you at the moment, but it could have been worse. 

[kevinlms]

On 10/02/2022 at 09:23, Simon Lee said:

 

It's rare, from a former  Controllers point if view we would never phone a driver when his train was reasonably expected to be moving, but send a text requesting "phone Control when safe to do so"  Likewise if a driver rang and it was obvious he was moving,, he would be told "ring back when your stationary" and the call terminated.

 

Obviously you can never legislate for friends and family, but normally the professionalism of the driver would influence his behaviour. 

 

Your comment about road users made me realise, that, since moving to Germany, l can not actually remember the last time l saw anyone using a handheld mobile whilst driving, maybe a cultural thing or that there are generally more police about and the penalties are more severe ?

Australia has high penalties for using a non handsfree phone whilst driving a vehicle, but that doesn't stop it from occurring. Personally, I gave up on the HF too, when I realised how far I'd travelled while on the mobile and little recollection of the drive!

[The Stationmaster]

19 hours ago, Shedmaster said:

 

Hi Mr Stationmaster, 

 

Whilst not wishing to challenge your point, I would like to respectfully ask/clarify something please if I may? 

 

Were our Train Driver Mobile Phone 

regs not kicked into touch after a fatal collision/derailment in California some years ago, due to the Driver texting? 

 

I seem to remember there was a huge tightening of our rules soon after this, or at least, I thought it was around the same time? 

 

Finally, I struggle to believe that Railway Staff are still stupid enough to take drugs or use mobile phones etc in todays railway environment, as we all know full well the career ending consequences when inevitably caught, doesn't make sense to me. 

 

Kindest Regards, 

 

Shed. 

I'm not sure of the date when things were changed without going through a lot of amendments  but you don't have to go back all that many years to the time when mobile 'phone use was becoming recognised as a factor in SPAD incidence and various people began pressing for change including NR's own Traction Inspector so it was definitely an increasingly recognised problem here.    

 

As far as drugs are concerned the Transport & Works Act back in 1992 and BR policy from that era and slightly earlier really sorted things but I don't doubt that there could still be occasional instances of somebody thinking they are far more clever than the rules.    The T&W Act also created additional enforcement powers, plus testing requirements, and these were made very clear to everybody yet I know there was a case in the latter part of the 1990s where a Driver reported for work one day when he could barely stand up due to intoxication - and his employer (SNCF) had made very clear to him what would happen in. such circumstances when he was working in England. 

[Jonb82]

18 hours ago, Titan said:

 

Why does the system allow him to hit the buffers at "only" double the speed limit, (give or take a couple of mph)  after already having slowed considerably due to a driver initiated emergency brake application at three times the speed limit?

approaching buffer stops the tpws if fitted should be set to around 11-12mph, we are always told to approach them under 10mph, unfortunately they won’t offer much protection at such a high approach speed.

Edited February 11, 2022 by Jonb82

[melmerby]

6 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

Australia has high penalties for using a non handsfree phone whilst driving a vehicle, but that doesn't stop it from occurring. Personally, I gave up on the HF too, when I realised how far I'd travelled while on the mobile and little recollection of the drive!

This is the proof that being in converstion (or texting etc.) on a phone is the main cause of lack of attention, not the act of starting the call using one's hands.

 

I once drove many miles behind a driver on the A45 east of Northampton (UK) who was deep in conversation and totally oblivious to what was behind him and how he was driving., he was driving well below the speed limit and was wandering from lane to lane in such a way that no one could pass him, the queue of traffic behind slowly built up.

Even a long (very long) blast on the horn didn't even register. (IIRC I only got past when he went a different way at a roundabout.)

 

One day (much more recently) I was about to drive my car off my drive when a car with a female driver in deep conversation on an ordinary mobile stopped across the end of it blocking my way off.

I blew my horn - no response - I blew it again for much longer - still no response, I got out of the car and only a substantial thump of her side window gained her attention.

It was quite clear from her response that she was completely lost in her conversation and hadn't realised what she was doing.

 

Both these cases serve to show that, IMHO, mobile phone use by a driver in a car should be banned totally.

[guzzler17]

36 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Both these cases serve to show that, IMHO, mobile phone use by a driver in a car should be banned totally.

 

Alternatively turn every car into the microwave equivalent of a Faraday cage. 

 

Oh no better not coz a good number will then have to stop every 30 seconds in order to get out of their vehicle to see if someone's replied to their latest social media post.

[mdvle]

20 hours ago, Shedmaster said:

a fatal collision/derailment in California some years ago, due to the Driver texting? 

 

That would be the Metrolink (LA area commuter railroad) collision with a freight train in 2008 in Chatsworth - killed 25 and injured 135 - where the engineer was texting as he passed a red signal.

 

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2010-jan-22-la-me-metrolink22-2010jan22-story.html

 

 

20 hours ago, Shedmaster said:

Finally, I struggle to believe that Railway Staff are still stupid enough to take drugs or use mobile phones etc in todays railway environment, as we all know full well the career ending consequences when inevitably caught, doesn't make sense to me.

 

Human beings aren't 100% rational, and we are frequently very bad at evaluating the danger of our activities while overestimating our abilities.

 

We know drunk driving is dangerous and against the law, yet it remains a chronic problem on the roads for example.

 

 

[Wheatley]

One of the most effective anti-mobile campaigns I've seen on the railway was actually aimed at track workers around 1995ish. We'd struck and killed an Engineering Supervisor (I think) in a possession because he was making a perfectly legitimate call on his newly issued company mobile.

 

It featured in a briefing video, except instead of the usual dry voiceover they used an interview with his widow over the video of the re-enactment. Cut to the end where she looks at the interviewer and said "... and I'd just like to ask everyone watching this to be really careful because my little lad is never going to know his dad...." - I glanced round the room and there were a dozen or so signalmen, Pway and others all blubbing like babies, me included.  

[big jim]

On 10/02/2022 at 06:41, Wheatley said:

There is. He was only doing 28mph when he hit the buffers. 

Only!

 

the cctv footage of the incident is pretty damn scary.

 

 

 

 

[33C]

But, the older type body shell stood up very well to the impact.  

[Michael Hodgson]

When mobile phones first came out we used to be plagued by voices shouting "Hello?  I'm on the train".

I never realised some of these herberts were actually driving one.