Private Owner Vans, did they actually exist?

[Compound2632]

4 hours ago, doilum said:

One thought struck me, did some companies buy àdvertising space on the sides of wagons? Otherwise, why would Kodak justify its own fleet of side and end door mineral wagons?

 

It would be hard to find an industry that did not consume coal. Any firm with a fair-sized factory might choose to operate its own coal wagons (purchased or hired) to bring fuel to its premises, rather than relying on those of the supplying colliery or coal factor. Once the wagon is on one's own private siding, there's no urgency to unload to avoid demurrage charges etc. 

 

Thus one could see coal wagons painted up with the names of at first sight the most unlikely industries, from chocolate (Cadburys) and biscuits (Huntley & Palmers) to matches (S.J. Moreland & Co.) and bee-hive manufacturers (Burtt of Gloucester).

 

The fleet number, 1205, is not necessarily an indicator of the size of the wagon fleet. Sometimes a number was chosen to give the impression the business was bigger than it seemed, or because it was the wife's birthday - but this was usually confined to coal merchants, which tended to be rather small businesses. We don't know what else Kodak might be numbering in the same series as that wagon - road vehicles, factory hand carts...

Edited February 23, 2022 by Compound2632

[Compound2632]

A thought. Did the RCH ever issue any specifications for covered goods wagons? Under the system introduced in 1887, whereby in order to be accepted by the main line companies, a PO wagon had to be inspected by and registered with one of them, a non-standard vehicle would be considerably more bothersome to register. This would militate against PO vans, if there was no specification.

 

I note that the well-known Shepherd, Neame malt and hop van, on the cover of John Arkell's book, was registered with the SE&CR in 1912, but other such vehicles illustrated date from the 1870s. 

[Invicta]

7 hours ago, doilum said:

Having had another ten  minutes or so, I scrolled through the POWSIDES catalogue. Apart from salt wagons (one of which was Hobbs cement,) I found only six vans. Three were small independent breweries, two cement and a van owned by the Elipse Peat co.

One thought struck me, did some companies buy àdvertising space on the sides of wagons? Otherwise, why would Kodak justify its own fleet of side and end door mineral wagons?

 

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

The fleet number, 1205, is not necessarily an indicator of the size of the wagon fleet. Sometimes a number was chosen to give the impression the business was bigger than it seemed, or because it was the wife's birthday - but this was usually confined to coal merchants, which tended to be rather small businesses. We don't know what else Kodak might be numbering in the same series as that wagon - road vehicles, factory hand carts...

 

According to the Keith Turton PO Wagon books (it's Vol 1, p103 if anyone wants to look up the actual photos), the "Kodak" PO coal wagons weren't owned and operated by Kodak themselves, but by London coal merchants Wallace Spiers. It seems Wallace Spiers had wagons painted in advertising liveries for some of their customers, with 'Coal Suppliers, Wallace Spiers & Co, St. Pancras Road, London' painted on the end door - they also had wagons liveried for "Crystalate Billiard Balls" in the same manner.

 

As for the lack of PO vans in the Powsides catalogue, I've had a quick skim through several of the Turton PO wagon books, and they're equally conspicuous by their absence there. Cement, gunpowder and brewery vans aside, they definitely seem to have been rare birds.

 

 

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, Invicta said:

According to the Keith Turton PO Wagon books (it's Vol 1, p103 if anyone wants to look up the actual photos), the "Kodak" PO coal wagons weren't owned and operated by Kodak themselves, but by London coal merchants Wallace Spiers. It seems Wallace Spiers had wagons painted in advertising liveries for some of their customers, with 'Coal Suppliers, Wallace Spiers & Co, St. Pancras Road, London' painted on the end door - they also had wagons liveried for "Crystalate Billiard Balls" in the same manner.

 

Ah, that's interesting, and explains the fleet number. (I don't have Turton's First.) I've not come across such an arrangement before; I wonder if there are any other examples?

[Invicta]

36 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Ah, that's interesting, and explains the fleet number. (I don't have Turton's First.) I've not come across such an arrangement before; I wonder if there are any other examples?

I know of at least one more -  coal for the Firestone Tyres factory at Brentford supplied by Milner Thomas & Co of London, who had wagons painted in Firestone colours to serve the contract. I'd be surprised if there weren't other similar arrangements between some of the bigger coal merchants/factors and their large-scale industrial clients

 

What seems to have been more a case of blatant advertising, rather than a coal supplier dedicating wagons painted in the client's livery to a specific contract, is a wagon owned by Chesterfield journalist and coal merchant Edmund Hind (Turton, vol. 13, p60-1), but carrying the name of "Eyre & Sons, House Furnishers", with his own name confined to the bottom-left corner of the wagon side. Apparently Hind had a similar wagon carrying the slogan "Let Wolf and Sons, Chesterfield be your tailors" - 

 

Edited February 23, 2022 by Invicta

[dibber25]

At least two different cement company liveries here on GWR Iron Minks. (CJL)

[corneliuslundie]

An interesting case is Spillers. Because they were unhappy with the cost of the supply of wagons by the GWR for their flour traffic from Cardiff docks to other parts of the country, in 1906 and 1907 they bought a fleet of 300 Iron Minks from Harrison & Camm. But there was a row with the GWR who, effectively, refused to accept them at rates acceptable to Spillers. So in the end Spillers sold them to the GWR in 1911 who sold some on to the Rhymney Railway. The story is in "All about Iron Minks" by Lewis et al published some years ago by the HMRS.

I suspect that this may have been the biggest fleet of PO vans, though not for long.

Jonathan

[Dave John]

Some of the early PO grain hoppers were built as vans with a hopper inside. For  example ;

 

http://www.srpsmuseum.org.uk/10042.htm

 

http://www.srpsmuseum.org.uk/10099.htm

 

I have always fancied building one. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Compound2632]

23 minutes ago, dibber25 said:

At least two different cement company liveries here on GWR Iron Minks. (CJL)

 

It's a not-a-mink. Not a Great Western Iron Mink, but one of the numerous mink-a-likes by various builders. Some were for the various South Wales railway companies, others were gunpowder vans for the main-line companies, others, as here and in the Spillers case mentioned by @corneliuslundie, were built by the wagon trade for private owners. Most of these knock-offs copied the iron mink body style - but with variations in length - but differed at and below solebar level, according to the builder.

 

Neither, I think, are there really two different firms though two different liveries, the Ferrocrete brand name having changed to Blue Circle (there may have been a take over or amalgamation.) I believe these are the same as the one seen here in earlier years, alongside a kosher iron mink:

 

 

[Embedded link to Warwickshire Railways image lnwrlav6062a.]

[corneliuslundie]

Agreed. Most of the Welsh companies built, or more often had built for them, "Iron Minks" which were of various different designs. Some were used as gunpowder vans (eg the Cambrian) but others for merchandise. The Spillers ones, for example, had Dean-Churchward brake gear.

And of course in later years the "Iron Minks" were actually steel.

Jonathan

[The Stationmaster]

12 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

It's a not-a-mink. Not a Great Western Iron Mink, but one of the numerous mink-a-likes by various builders. Some were for the various South Wales railway companies, others were gunpowder vans for the main-line companies, others, as here and in the Spillers case mentioned by @corneliuslundie, were built by the wagon trade for private owners. Most of these knock-offs copied the iron mink body style - but with variations in length - but differed at and below solebar level, according to the builder.

 

Neither, I think, are there really two different firms though two different liveries, the Ferrocrete brand name having changed to Blue Circle (there may have been a take over or amalgamation.) I believe these are the same as the one seen here in earlier years, alongside a kosher iron mink:

 

 

[Embedded link to Warwickshire Railways image lnwrlav6062a.]

A lovely picture of Leamington taken from the LNWR side.  There is a history of Greaves on the Warwickshire Railways site - quite logically  so as Greaves Siding, with the signal box of that name on the GW northern main line 8 miles south of Leamington Spa, was the railway connection to Greaves Works.   It eventually finished up as part of the APCM group (as was Blue Circle) but I don't know their product was rebranded as Blue Circle.

 

Apparently cement manufacture there ceased in 1970 but anyone with an interest in and some knowledge of the route will know the Greaves Siding location and the site of the works was still very obvious well into the 1990, even after the signal box had gone.

 

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/misc/harbury-cement.htm

[Nick Holliday]

On 22/02/2022 at 11:00, The Stationmaster said:

On 22/02/2022 at 08:19, 41516 said:

 

 

Secondly, demurrage Payments.  If it's cost effective to have your own fleet of wagons and not pay the railway company for having their wagons standing either full or empty before you can return them, then it makes sense.  If those costs change and the demurrage costs are less than purchasing and running a fleet of wagons, then it seems sensible not to bother.  Also bare in mind many PO wagons marked up as being PO were actually on hire from the wagon builder companies, it may be the case after a while they were simply returned to thier owners when they were no longer cost effective.

 

 

 

But it didn't work that way.  The only time you would save on demurrage payments was if your wagons were on your own premises (or someone else's private siding),  If they were in any railway owned goods depot or yard for any longer than the allowed period (usually two working days) then Siding Rent would be charged and if they also had to be shunted aside to move other wagons in or out when Siding Rent was being charged there was also a Shunting Charge (6d per occasion in the late 1920s).  

 

The Railways were also legally entitled to add to the normal rates an additional sum for a privately owned vehicle occupying and being sorted in railway owned yard during transit and when the LNWR was challenged in court in respect of such charges it won the case.   And you need to add on the Commuted Charge for movement to a location where repairs could be carried out if they were needed plus the cost of movement after repair.  Many private owner wagons were effectively owned by what we would nowadays call 'finance companies' and even when they were purchased a common method of purchase was called 'hire purchase' where the company buying the wagon paid the builder or an associated company, or a separate 'finance company',  a hire charge as they paid off the purchase price in instalments.

 

At least in the thirties and earlier, demurrage was completely separate from any Siding Rent.  Demurrage was paid if a wagon took longer to unload than the agreed period, usually two days, I think, and was paid to the owner of the wagon, which could be a railway company.  Thus a wagon, if owned by the private trader, or hired to him, would not be subject to any payments on this account, although demurrage worked both ways, and the railway company might be liable to pay the wagon owner/hirer if it unduly delays the wagon.

I'd not heard of Shunting Charges if a wagon has to be shunted aside to move other wagons.  I would have thought that it was the railway company's responsibility to place wagons in suitable locations in the yard, and any shunting required would be down to them.  It might be different if the wagon had spent too long in the siding.  A 1937 book on Modern Railway Practice does note a charge of 1s to shunt a crippled wagon into or out of sidings, and 6d a day for siding rent after three days.  This is where the Commuted Charge (for Shunting and Siding Rent), from the twenties, comes in.  For an annual charge of 1s per wagon, these charges were waived.

The other annual charge, indicated by the yellow star, was introduced in the thirties. In 1930 the RCH gave notice of changes in the way empty running to repair locations.  Previously, there were no charges for returning an empty wagon to the original loading point, or for forwarding an empty wagon to the point of loading, providing the journeys each way were over the same route. There was also provision that there would be no charges if the wagon was diverted, perhaps for repairs, providing the distance travelled over a particular line was less than the original. The RCH proposed to charge for the last, which caused an uproar, and this was resolved by means of a modest annual payment, around 1s 10d, covering most situations.

[dibber25]

18 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

It's a not-a-mink. Not a Great Western Iron Mink, but one of the numerous mink-a-likes by various builders. Some were for the various South Wales railway companies, others were gunpowder vans for the main-line companies, others, as here and in the Spillers case mentioned by @corneliuslundie, were built by the wagon trade for private owners. Most of these knock-offs copied the iron mink body style - but with variations in length - but differed at and below solebar level, according to the builder.

 

Neither, I think, are there really two different firms though two different liveries, the Ferrocrete brand name having changed to Blue Circle (there may have been a take over or amalgamation.) I believe these are the same as the one seen here in earlier years, alongside a kosher iron mink:

 

 

[Embedded link to Warwickshire Railways image lnwrlav6062a.]

I thought I did say 'liveries' not 'firms' and I used the term GWR 'iron mink' because as far as I'm aware that's the only kind of 'iron mink' that's been offered in model form and likely to be found in PO liveries. I was under the impression that the question was a fairly basic one and required a fairly simple answer. (CJL)

[The Stationmaster]

24 minutes ago, Nick Holliday said:

At least in the thirties and earlier, demurrage was completely separate from any Siding Rent.  Demurrage was paid if a wagon took longer to unload than the agreed period, usually two days, I think, and was paid to the owner of the wagon, which could be a railway company.  Thus a wagon, if owned by the private trader, or hired to him, would not be subject to any payments on this account, although demurrage worked both ways, and the railway company might be liable to pay the wagon owner/hirer if it unduly delays the wagon.

I'd not heard of Shunting Charges if a wagon has to be shunted aside to move other wagons.  I would have thought that it was the railway company's responsibility to place wagons in suitable locations in the yard, and any shunting required would be down to them.  It might be different if the wagon had spent too long in the siding.  A 1937 book on Modern Railway Practice does note a charge of 1s to shunt a crippled wagon into or out of sidings, and 6d a day for siding rent after three days.  This is where the Commuted Charge (for Shunting and Siding Rent), from the twenties, comes in.  For an annual charge of 1s per wagon, these charges were waived.

The other annual charge, indicated by the yellow star, was introduced in the thirties. In 1930 the RCH gave notice of changes in the way empty running to repair locations.  Previously, there were no charges for returning an empty wagon to the original loading point, or for forwarding an empty wagon to the point of loading, providing the journeys each way were over the same route. There was also provision that there would be no charges if the wagon was diverted, perhaps for repairs, providing the distance travelled over a particular line was less than the original. The RCH proposed to charge for the last, which caused an uproar, and this was resolved by means of a modest annual payment, around 1s 10d, covering most situations.

The Commuted Charge applied to cripples - not to traffic wagons - where Siding Rent was chargeable on a PO vehicle which overstayed the permitted period for unloading.  the whole point ogf demurrage and Siding rent charges was to encourage a consignee to accept the traffic in the wagon so that it could be removed and the space it occupied could then deal with subsequent traffic.   In effect what was being charged for amounted to rather more than use io a wagon for warehousing.  Both charges were paid, to the railway, at the station they were incurred - there being suitable columns to enter them in the daily goods balance sheet at that station or its accounting point.

 

Now it is a very long time since I did my Station Accountancy exam and almost as long since I had any involvement at all in most aspects of goods station/goods working  accountancy and memory can be faulty.   So I decided to check the facts in a GWR Goods Station Working and Accountancy book I happen to have and that was whereI found the charge for shunting because I'd definitely not come across it previously - it hardly mattered in the late 1960s when I was learning station accountancy because PO wagons in general traffic through BR goods depots or sidings with a mixture of traffic were something of a rarity and it might well have vanished by then anyway, see below

 

A considerable  amount of the previous attention and auditing given to demurrage charges and some situations involving siding rent and shunting charges went the way of many good things at some places during WWII for a variety of reasons including lack of staff.  And sometimes the'(not so old) Spanish customs' that had grown up during the war years continued for decades afterwards.   For example a major audit examination at a particular location in South Wales in the early 1970s uncovered a trail of practices which had developed during the war and had never been corrected and which had led to a consequent loss of demurrage and shunting charges revenue over the following 30 years which ran to almost a  total six figure amount (in £s).  

 

Demurrage charges were never - in my view and experience - sufficient to deter the most determined of slow wagon dischargers or loaders, especially coal merchants who simply regarded it as an additional cost in their business and added it to the retail price in some way or other.

Edited February 24, 2022 by The Stationmaster

[Compound2632]

34 minutes ago, dibber25 said:

 the question was a fairly basic one and required a fairly simple answer. (CJL)

 

You did, yes, say liveries. But you also stated that they were Great Western iron minks, which was not the case; hence my clarification - they were PO wagons, not GW wagons painted up for a particular customer - unlike, for instance, the Westmoreland Express Egg vans in their striking blue paint scheme, which were LMS vehicles assigned to the use of a particular customer.

 

I didn't read your post as a question, so what I wrote was not an answer. I hoped that others might find the clarification and additional information interesting. 

Edited February 24, 2022 by Compound2632

[41516]

22 hours ago, Invicta said:

I've had a quick skim through several of the Turton PO wagon books, and they're equally conspicuous by their absence there. Cement, gunpowder and brewery vans aside, they definitely seem to have been rare birds.

 

Would you mind giving a list of Brewery companies with vans please?

 

 

[corneliuslundie]

What you want it this:

https://lightmoor.co.uk/BDLpdf_files/Private_Owner_Wagons_Index.pdf

Jonathan

[t-b-g]

I have seen drawings of a private owner van in the livery of W H Davis, wagon builders. They also had a coal wagon version lettered with their details.

 

Basically it seems to have been a mobile advertisement. I recall reading somewhere that it was used to carry spare parts as they had several premises and also needed to have spare parts taken out to outlying places to allow them to carry out wagon repairs but I can't remember where I saw it.

[Compound2632]

18 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

What you want it this:

https://lightmoor.co.uk/BDLpdf_files/Private_Owner_Wagons_Index.pdf

 

But, with respect, that does not help, much - or at least, does not help if you do not have the library of books to which it is an index. it doesn't indicate what type of wagon is illustrated. so if you do find the name of a brewery firm there, it's no positive indication they've a van rather than coal wagons.

[Steamport Southport]

3 hours ago, t-b-g said:

I have seen drawings of a private owner van in the livery of W H Davis, wagon builders. They also had a coal wagon version lettered with their details.

 

Basically it seems to have been a mobile advertisement. I recall reading somewhere that it was used to carry spare parts as they had several premises and also needed to have spare parts taken out to outlying places to allow them to carry out wagon repairs but I can't remember where I saw it.

 

Bachmann do the wagon.

 

It was an advertisement and I assume it was meant to attend exhibitions or to be available to show to prospective customers.

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/133183985065

 

Bachmann have done a few of the exhibition wagons as Collectors Club specials.

 

 

 

Jason

Edited February 25, 2022 by Steamport Southport

[jwealleans]

There may be others, but on the Britain from Above site, if you search for the Coltness Cement Works (misspelt 'Costness', so search for that) you can see both opens and vans in the Works livery.   The text isn't always legible, but they painted the name diagonally up the sides so it's easy to spot.  

 

Of course, the vans may be internal user only (but why pay to have them lettered?) but I have seen a different picture of a former ROD 20T van in the Coltness livery.

[corneliuslundie]

Apologies. Yes, it lists the owner but not the type of vehicle. I had not looked at it for some time, merely had it as an internet link.

And from memory it doesn't include the other Lightmoor PO wagon books. of which there are several

Jonathan

[Compound2632]

37 minutes ago, jwealleans said:

Of course, the vans may be internal user only (but why pay to have them lettered?) but I have seen a different picture of a former ROD 20T van in the Coltness livery.

 

Cadburys at Bournville had an internal user fleet, including various ex-L&Y and ex-Caledonian vans, that was painted in a uniform livery and lettered up "Cadburys" in the characteristic chocolate wrapper style, so it was done.

[TheSignalEngineer]

10 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Cadburys at Bournville had an internal user fleet, including various ex-L&Y and ex-Caledonian vans, that was painted in a uniform livery and lettered up "Cadburys" in the characteristic chocolate wrapper style, so it was done.

Cadburys were one of the last big users of canal transport to bring in bagged raw materials from the docks and transfer between factories. I remember seeing sacks being unloaded at their canalside warehouse in 1960/61. The rail vans were used to take the sacks across to the factory via an incline on the east side then back over the skew bridge to the factory.

This 25 inch OS Map shows the extent of the network, with the canal wharf at the top and the kick-back incline up to Raddlebarn Road. 

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/mrcad1478.htm

These are some in use on an enthusiasts tour

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/misc/misc_cad121.htm

[t-b-g]

8 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Bachmann do the wagon.

 

It was an advertisement and I assume it was meant to attend exhibitions or to be available to show to prospective customers.

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/133183985065

 

Bachmann have done a few of the exhibition wagons as Collectors Club specials.

 

 

 

Jason

 

That is interesting but it isn't the same company that I was posting about! W H Davis was (and still is) based near the LD&ECR at Langwith Junction/Shirebrook North. The W H Davis wagons, both the van and the coal type, were painted black, with white lettering shaded red.

 

I wonder if the two Davis wagon firms were related? 

 

I agree that they were very much mobile advertisements but the coal wagons (I don't know how many there were so that could perhaps be coal wagon!) were also used in traffic. I have a photo which shows a W H Davis coal wagon in a "normal" coal train, looking very scruffy and not up to exhibition condition. I haven't seen a photo of the van in use.