Hornby 2023, no not what you think...

[RJS1977]

On 27/02/2022 at 23:46, Dagworth said:

An RTR 304 will be announced as soon as I finish my pair of 304 scratch conversions from Replica suburban coaches.

 

Andi

 

Hmm... then why didn't it appear after my father completed one made from three Triang suburbans?

 

That said, I did find two very nice kitbuilt examples on a stall at Ally Pally shortly after he'd completed it!

[SamThomas]

7 hours ago, CUCKOO LINE said:

 Remember they have already rattled Hornbys cage this year !

I would have thought that Hornby were quite capable of rattling their own cage (in between shooting themselves in the foot).

[mdvle]

2 hours ago, Godfrey Glyn said:

One thing I haven't seen expressed here, and apologies if I have missed it, is that we are about to face a financial recession when a great deal of what is now disposable income will need to be spent on gas, electricity and fuel.

 

Some good points.

 

The key thing is that nobody knows how things are going to play out, and in particular trying to predict what the price of oil and it's related commodities like natural gas will do in the medium to long term is likely as accurate as rolling a dice.

 

In the meantime products like a loco or dmu/emu all have 3+ year development time lines allowing for research, drawing, making model CAD, tooling, etc.  In some/many cases that money is spent and pausing a project can cause as many financial problems as continuing under bad economic circumstances.

 

But historically (and not guaranteed into the future) hobbies are something people continue to spend on as they cut back elsewhere - going out, vacations, home renovations, etc.  It may be different this time where Covid has created a pent up demand for vacations, but nobody really knows.

[mdvle]

7 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

So in other words they still have a rather large market area to tap.  Just look at the reaction on RMweb to the totally unexpected Jones Goods, clearly going left field doesn't take you into a desert.

 

Is there still potential in steam?  Yes, no question despite some who think they only thing that will sell going forward are diesels and electrics.

 

But my guess is the Jones Goods, while it will be a success, won't be that reliable product that can be run every couple years to generate some convenient extra cash flow to help keep things going financially.

 

Rapido can partially get that with some popular goods wagons and perhaps coaches though.

 

So while Rapido will be able to find a market others like Accurascale, Heljan and Bachmann will have the advantage that comes with having something like a Class 37 or 47 in their tooling inventory.

 

7 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

The one where they lost money in the year that they did rather well in Britain (probably yet another failure of getting the marketing right but there might be other reasons?).

 

Marketing, lack of commitment, etc.

 

Hornby's North American product line is, except for 3.5 products, essentially 30+ year old Rivarossi tooling.  That works fine for their Railroad range in the UK where Hornby is the name of the hobby but in the US people looking at the trainset level will think Walthers/LifeLike or Bachmann.

 

The exceptions, Hornby tooled up the GE U25C in HO and N and then tooled up the U28C which was close to identical to the U25C (hence the 0.5) - but that is all they tooled since 2013.  You can't sustain a North American operation on a bunch of old tooling and tooling 2.5 models over 6 year period.  The sad part though is that those models were well received and could have been a base to build up on.

 

The latest surprise is a toy version of Amtrak's Acela, available in electric or battery powered, as trainsets - https://us.Hornby.com/products/acela-electric-train-set-hr1000 but not sure how many will buy this given Hornby/Rivarossi aren't a household name in the US.

 

[mdvle]

7 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

That fairly unequivocally implies it, though.

 

No it doesn't - I was replying to a specific list of diesel locos and not all of the diesel locos that BR had.

 

Posts on RMweb, including requests in places like the Accurascale subsection, clearly show ongoing demand for the more popular classes of diesel loco - many requests for the Class 31 (just announced), Class 50, a new HST (power cars and coaches), etc.

 

A couple of requests for the Class 40 when Heljan announced their Class 45.

 

But there really isn't much if anything in the way of requests for a new Class 35/52 or even the poor Class 58.

 

And if the popularity is that low then they won't be a product that can be rerun every couple of years.

 

So, like I said, diesel loco market is still strong (Bachmann wouldn't have spent all that money developing the new Class 47 model if it wasn't) but there are limitations where either the existing model(s) are viewed as good enough or not enough people care to be requesting a new version.

 

7 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

That said, the prime Hydraulic target for a new model is really the Swindon (Class 42) Warship. 

 

Wouldn't necessarily disagree, but this is the first request for a new version in many months...

[eldomtom2]

12 hours ago, 1andrew1 said:

I agree that they've previously been tardy on electric locos and multiple units but seem to making some amends here. However, when you step back and look at their range, I think they have been innovative eg

• The  Basset Lowke steampunk range
• Playtrains range
• Lower-priced Railroad range
• Bringing steam generators to UK market
• Era 1 range including use of non-tension lock couplings
• Launch of 4-wheel and 6-wheel era 2 coaches - something they were working on before Hattons 
•  App-based analogue controls

How many of those have been successful though, or as innovative as you describe?

• Steampunk - as far as I can tell this was a complete flop, no new items since initial release except bought-in knockoff Lego sets that probably breach Lego's trademarks.
• Playtrains - seems to have done decently considering we got new items this year, but there were several false starts before it.
• Railroad - sort of a success, but then it required little investment. The branding however can only be described as a complete disaster and the range's success is in spite of it.
• Steam generators - Jury still out, but I'm not sure it's innovative as they did it in the past...
• Era 1 - I'll give you that, though with various 200th anniversaries coming up someone would probably have done it eventually
• Generic coaches - these I won't give you, because the theory (and it is a plausible one) is that they were Stroudley coaches hurriedly changed to be generic ones when Hattons announced their range.
• App-based analogue controls - where these a success? I generally didn't hear anything about them beyond the announcement.

[The Stationmaster]

1 minute ago, eldomtom2 said:

How many of those have been successful though, or as innovative as you describe?

• Steampunk - as far as I can tell this was a complete flop, no new items since initial release except bought-in knockoff Lego sets that probably breach Lego's trademarks.
• Playtrains - seems to have done decently considering we got new items this year, but there were several false starts before it.
• Railroad - sort of a success, but then it required little investment. The branding however can only be described as a complete disaster and the range's success is in spite of it.
• Steam generators - Jury still out, but I'm not sure it's innovative as they did it in the past...
• Era 1 - I'll give you that, though with various 200th anniversaries coming up someone would probably have done it eventually
• Generic coaches - these I won't give you, because the theory (and it is a plausible one) is that they were Stroudley coaches hurriedly changed to be generic ones when Hattons announced their range.
• App-based analogue controls - where these a success? I generally didn't hear anything about them beyond the announcement.

And even the new steam generator isn't innovative because it appears to be a copy if one which has been around for a little while although never previously offered on off-the-shelf r-t-r.  presumably Hornby are takinga licence to produce or wil they be getting another letter?

 

Incidentally reportedly the proposal within Hornby to make some generic 4 & 6 wheeled coaches was shelved and all work on them was stopped.  but seeing Hattions project 'somebody', in a rush to beat Hattons to market, had the Hornby work revived far too quickly to get all the underframe detail sorted as it would originally have been.

 

Is Railroad a success?  It is still there so presumably it sells and it uses old tooling so costs are low but does it wash its face in profit terms.  Don't forget that what we don't know is which things make the best level of profit for Hornby model railways or even, nowadays, the quantities in which they sell.  Their frequent rush to get out Year 2 models, many of which get no further than the warehouse or retailer's shelves suggests to me that apart from not understanding how demand works for some of their models they might also not make sufficient profit on Year 1 models.  Maybe ok to re-release after a couple years but some of their quick follow-ups have landed in the wrong place on the balance sheet.

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, eldomtom2 said:

How many of those have been successful though, or as innovative as you describe?

• Steampunk - as far as I can tell this was a complete flop, no new items since initial release except bought-in knockoff Lego sets that probably breach Lego's trademarks.
• Playtrains - seems to have done decently considering we got new items this year, but there were several false starts before it.
• Railroad - sort of a success, but then it required little investment. The branding however can only be described as a complete disaster and the range's success is in spite of it.
• Steam generators - Jury still out, but I'm not sure it's innovative as they did it in the past...
• Era 1 - I'll give you that, though with various 200th anniversaries coming up someone would probably have done it eventually
• Generic coaches - these I won't give you, because the theory (and it is a plausible one) is that they were Stroudley coaches hurriedly changed to be generic ones when Hattons announced their range.
• App-based analogue controls - where these a success? I generally didn't hear anything about them beyond the announcement.

Bluetooth-based wireless analogue controls have been available from Blue Railways since well before Covid kicked in and I find them highly satisfactory. They also offer my preferred choice of a handset with a knob rather than being stuck using the touch-screen on my phone which frankly would bore me rigid.

 

John

Edited March 3, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[1andrew1]

4 hours ago, eldomtom2 said:

How many of those have been successful though, or as innovative as you describe?

• Steampunk - as far as I can tell this was a complete flop, no new items since initial release except bought-in knockoff Lego sets that probably breach Lego's trademarks.
• Playtrains - seems to have done decently considering we got new items this year, but there were several false starts before it.
• Railroad - sort of a success, but then it required little investment. The branding however can only be described as a complete disaster and the range's success is in spite of it.
• Steam generators - Jury still out, but I'm not sure it's innovative as they did it in the past...
• Era 1 - I'll give you that, though with various 200th anniversaries coming up someone would probably have done it eventually
• Generic coaches - these I won't give you, because the theory (and it is a plausible one) is that they were Stroudley coaches hurriedly changed to be generic ones when Hattons announced their range.
• App-based analogue controls - where these a success? I generally didn't hear anything about them beyond the announcement.

I think I've demonstrated that Hornby have been innovative, which was the point I was debating on. I hadn't really developed a view but when I looked back objectively at what they had done, their innovation became apparent. None of that excuses their significant mis-steps though,

Whilst I wasn't setting out to prove that their innovations have been successful, I think apart from Steampunk, they have been successful with these innovations and the steam generators have not launched yet. By being innovative you take risks - some risks work, other risks don't. 

 

I  like the Railroad concept and it's cleverly positioned. Clinically, I would have liked to have seen Hornby using the Lima branding across Europe for this purpose with the brands of Electrotren, Jouef, Rivarossi and Hornby sitting above it. However, I get that the Hornby brand is too strong to not use in the UK hence the Railroad brand.

[rob D2]

48 minutes ago, scumcat said:

How did you know I live near Birkenhead?

excellent , are you planning on making your own APT ? 

[rob D2]

It's a shame if steampunk was a flop, you have to gamble at times i guess .

Reference the 58 - i wouldn't mind a new version as I won't buy the rather coarse over priced danish one .

 

I can't imagine anyone touching it with a barge pole though . Short time span , limited area of ops initially , small range of liveries on a small class, doesn't seem to have a " cult" following . Doesn't seem a money spinner 

[1andrew1]

2 hours ago, rob D2 said:

It's a shame if steampunk was a flop, you have to gamble at times i guess .

Yes. It was probably a fairly low-cost gamble and I'm sure  they knew it was quite high risk. Perhaps without Covid it might have developed momentum via exhibitions; we'll never know but I suspect not.

[Pmorgancym]

7 hours ago, rob D2 said:

It's a shame if steampunk was a flop, you have to gamble at times i guess .

I wonder if they had simply, done it better....

The models weren't particularly good looking, if they'd a bit more of a 'wow factor' to them

[bigherb]

On 02/03/2022 at 22:00, 1andrew1 said:

I agree that they've previously been tardy on electric locos and multiple units but seem to making some amends here. However, when you step back and look at their range, I think they have been innovative eg

• The  Basset Lowke steampunk range
• Playtrains range
• Lower-priced Railroad range
• Bringing steam generators to UK market
• Era 1 range including use of non-tension lock couplings
• Launch of 4-wheel and 6-wheel era 2 coaches - something they were working on before Hattons 
•  App-based analogue controls

You can add the small Industrials to that Sentinel, Peckett and Rushton.

[Dunsignalling]

8 hours ago, 1andrew1 said:

Yes. It was probably a fairly low-cost gamble and I'm sure  they knew it was quite high risk. Perhaps without Covid it might have developed momentum via exhibitions; we'll never know but I suspect not.

Going on the look of them, and the models they were derived from, it was definitely a low cost gamble. 

[Legend]

9 hours ago, 1andrew1 said:

Yes. It was probably a fairly low-cost gamble and I'm sure  they knew it was quite high risk. Perhaps without Covid it might have developed momentum via exhibitions; we'll never know but I suspect not.

 

Trouble is everyone saw it for what it was . An cheap to produce 0-4-0 with nuts attached.   Id call it half hearted Steampunk. 

[The Stationmaster]

11 hours ago, 1andrew1 said:

Yes. It was probably a fairly low-cost gamble and I'm sure  they knew it was quite high risk. Perhaps without Covid it might have developed momentum via exhibitions; we'll never know but I suspect not.

Like some of the other 'innovations' you listed it contained virtually no risk with very low tooling costs (if any) and merely a need to get back whay t it cost them in manufacture and distribution etc plus make a contribution to costs.  I'd hardly calla low risk venture like that onnovative when compared with teh way others are approaching thee marketplace.

 

And of course some of what you listed as 'innovative wasn't - one item on your list was directly copying someone else's innovation, another has in part used not only an idea but also product from another (non UK) manufacturer - which I don't condemn but it's hardly 'innovation'.   And Railroad is still a marketing mess with limited separation of identity and cost:value relationship compared with the main range. 

 

apart from the industrials - which pre-date the current regime at Hornby - the only real innovation has been the very early railways era and now they've gone and made a mess of that by playing a sensible addition to it in a far from clever way marketing wise - simply not quick enough off the mark. 

[JSpencer]

On 03/03/2022 at 16:49, 1andrew1 said:

I  like the Railroad concept and it's cleverly positioned. Clinically, I would have liked to have seen Hornby using the Lima branding across Europe for this purpose with the brands of Electrotren, Jouef, Rivarossi and Hornby sitting above it. However, I get that the Hornby brand is too strong to not use in the UK hence the Railroad brand.

 

It is cleverly positioned, but like a lot of their stuff, it is not the type of item that will suddenly fly off the shelves. Here in lays part of the problem. They need cash to sit on these items that probably take  1 to 2 years to move. The other part is getting their production calculations correct for those all newly tooled super detail items whereby they often fail to make the killing they should have.

Edited April 20, 2022 by JSpencer

[SamThomas]

On 03/03/2022 at 15:49, 1andrew1 said:

I  like the Railroad concept and it's cleverly positioned. Clinically, I would have liked to have seen Hornby using the Lima branding across Europe for this purpose with the brands of Electrotren, Jouef, Rivarossi and Hornby sitting above it. However, I get that the Hornby brand is too strong to not use in the UK hence the Railroad brand.

Hopefully, this will never happen.

 

UK modellers experience of Lima tends to be the poor quality stuff. European Lima towards the end was pretty good quality.  Late Jouef & Rivarossi is well regarded too.

However, I do remember some QC issue with the Rivarossi DB58 when it came out under the HornbyRivarossi banner.

 

Hornby should (IMHO) stick to the Railroad brand for their entry level/hobby/start models & try to promote the Electrotren & former Lima group models into the Roco/Piko/Trix arena.

[melmerby]

To me Hornby's "Railroad" is a label that doesn't know what it is or where it sits.

 

We had a new tooled Railroad P2. To confuse matters, the P2 also had a higher price (but not proper main range) version.

We have old Lima, Hornby, Airfix etc. The basic 0-4-0T.

Then they throw in "Railroad Plus".

Many Railroad items get packaged into sets, that aren't labelled Railroad.

 

The whole concept is confusing.

 

[Dunsignalling]

 

Railroad Plus is the easiest bit of it all to understand; Railroad with a better paint job. That's effectively what the dearer versions of the P2 and Duke of Gloucester were/are, but Hornby hadn't named it at the time.....

 

As you say, though, "Railroad" has suffered by being rather too loosely defined. Perfectly OK for getting further earnings from obsolete stuff that's been retooled in the main range. Aimed at children, beginners and those who don't want the fiddly/vulnerable detail (e.g. garden users and the self-confessed ham fisted) it makes perfect sense.

 

The waters were muddied by attempting to market what  are effectively mid-level models (P2, DoG, and Crosti 9F) in both Railroad and the main range (the ill-thought-out Design Clever concept). Railroad and Railroad Plus actually offers an opportunity for greater clarity if applied wisely. 

 

My thought is that there should be that if Hornby is to have Premium and Budget ranges, there should be no apparent overlap between the two, though common mechanisms needn't be a problem.

 

Better stratification is needed in what goes into the range. Simply changing "Hornby Railroad" to "Railroad by Hornby" might be enough to clarify the marketing side.

 

There again, they own the Tri-ang name again these days.....  

 

John

Edited April 20, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[adb968008]

11 hours ago, SamThomas said:

Hopefully, this will never happen.

 

UK modellers experience of Lima tends to be the poor quality stuff. European Lima towards the end was pretty good quality.  Late Jouef & Rivarossi is well regarded too.

However, I do remember some QC issue with the Rivarossi DB58 when it came out under the HornbyRivarossi banner.

 

Hornby should (IMHO) stick to the Railroad brand for their entry level/hobby/start models & try to promote the Electrotren & former Lima group models into the Roco/Piko/Trix arena.

Lima wasnt seen as poor quality at the time it was made.

 

If you wanted a 08/31/37/43(HST)/47/52 it was head and shoulders above the Hornby one, both price and detail. Class 20/55’s competitor was Wrenn, class 40’s was Jouef !!!

indeed the only diesel Lima was beaten on was the 42Warship, both Flieschmann and Mainline beat it hands down.

 

it was only when Lima was on the rocks that competitors from the far easy went on a frenzy to replace them… its interesting to think at one point a Bachmann Warship and a Lima Warship shared the same price tag on the retailers shelf at the same time.

 

[SamThomas]

37 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Lima wasnt seen as poor quality at the time it was made.

I've yet to meet a UK modeller who thought that early Lima was good quality (thinking HO class 33 era here)

[adb968008]

7 hours ago, SamThomas said:

I've yet to meet a UK modeller who thought that early Lima was good quality (thinking HO class 33 era here)

Thats because your asking 30 years too late.

Put the Wrenn / Dublo 20 next to a Lima 20 and ask which is better ?

Then your thinking how it used to be, not how it is today.

 

Someday, the stuff being made now will be seen as low quality rubbish compared to what you will be able to have then… thats how consumer society works… and people will be moaning of the £1600-£2000 price tag of new locos.. thats how inflation works too. of course we still wont have a new Class 81 / 124 then either and the Trix ones will be prized highly.

 

Edited April 21, 2022 by adb968008

[SamThomas]

3 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Thats because your asking 30 years too late.

Put the Wrenn / Dublo 20 next to a Lima 20 and ask which is better ?

Then your thinking how it used to be, not how it is today.

 

Someday, the stuff being made now will be seen as low quality rubbish compared to what you will be able to have then… thats how consumer society works… and people will be moaning of the £1600-£2000 price tag of new locos.. thats how inflation works too. of course we still wont have a new Class 81 / 124 then either and the Trix ones will be prized highly.

 

I really don't get the point(s) you are trying to get over - I'll leave it at thanks.