What might BR have done with DP2?

[JeffP]

Just finished watching a YouTube video of the class 50's in which DP2 had quite a lot of mentions.

Given the long lives of the 50's which came from that prototype, what do we think might have happened to the actual prototype had it not been wrecked at Pilsmoor?

[The Stationmaster]

1 minute ago, JeffP said:

Just finished watching a YouTube video of the class 50's in which DP2 had quite a lot of mentions.

Given the long lives of the 50's which came from that prototype, what do we think might have happened to the actual prototype had it not been wrecked at Pilsmoor?

It would probably have carried on in traffic until it got too expensive to keep going.  Unlike the 50s (always known as 50:50s until the WR finally sorted them out it seems to have a typically EE reliable piece of motive power.

 

The 50s were terrible things - in their first full Saturday on West of England trains in the 1970s when I was at Westbury we had to replace 16 (yes, sixteen) of them due to failures.  We ended up using every Type 4 we had (quiet day for stone traffic fortunately) and even had to scrounge some more from Bath Road but by late afternoon we were putting back out 50s that had failed in the morning and crossing our fingers they might make it as far as Reading or even Paddington without expiring again.  Post refurbishment they were pretty reliable - which was just as well.

[woodenhead]

It would never have lasted beyond 1975, by that time BR had an excess of diesel traction and like the class 53 it would be an anomaly.

 

However, given it was more reliable than it's production brothers I imagine BR would have pulled it out of view much earlier, no need to have a reminder of their over complication of the basic model running on the network with a lower failure rate.  Although perhaps if it had been sent to the Western like Falcon it might have pointed the way much earlier to refurbishment of the production versions once they had left the Midland Region.

[Halvarras]

Considering how well Falcon fared on the WR, despite having a pair of Maybach MD655s which were not interchangeable with the Western hydraulic fleet, I would have thought DP2 would have fared better still, since the power unit, main generator and traction motors were naturally very similar to the Class 50s (I can't categorically state 'interchangeable' because inevitably the factory reference numbers of the latter two items reflected upgrades between 1961 and 1967). I agree with @woodenhead 's reasoning as to why it would have been unlikely to have lasted beyond 1975, although I reckon it would have remained sound enough for use on passenger working, unlike Falcon which got switched to freight-only when its traction motors began to progressively fail with no spares to hand.

 

Maybe it would have stayed on the LMR until that region lost its last 50s to the WR, but the attraction of a pseudo-Deltic on the WR almost enticed me to buy a Heljan model when Hattons were shifting them at seventy quid a pop and respraying it blue as 'might have been' 49001 for a bit of fun. Pre-TOPS? 500 seems suitable.

 

[The Johnster]

Like Woodenhead, I reckon continuation in service until around 1975 or maybe 76, by which time the arrival of the HSTs and the cascading of the Deltics would have coincided with the need for a major overhaul and the resultant end of the loco's service life.  Re-usable components that were suitable could have gone into the class 50 pool.  Like Falcon, it would probably have been taken into BR stock for the last few years of it's life, maybe as 1300 or 1400, and then TOPs class 54 001.

[slilley]

A couple of thoughts. Much would have depended on what EE wanted to do with it. EE merged with GEC in 1968 so the enlarged company may have had different thoughts with regard to its use. It also depends on what use BR may have had for it bearing in mind it was steam heat and vacuum brake only. BR policy had already moved in the direction of ETH and air brakes.  With the arrival of the Class 50s BR may have decided it had no further use for it especially as traction policy per se was starting to move in the direction of specialist locomotives rather than mixed-traffic locomotives.

[MarkC]

4 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Like Woodenhead, I reckon continuation in service until around 1975 or maybe 76, by which time the arrival of the HSTs and the cascading of the Deltics would have coincided with the need for a major overhaul and the resultant end of the loco's service life.  Re-usable components that were suitable could have gone into the class 50 pool.  Like Falcon, it would probably have been taken into BR stock for the last few years of it's life, maybe as 1300 or 1400, and then TOPs class 54 001.

AFAIK the power unit did indeed go into the Class 50 'pool' - and is still extant? The bogies were standard EE - did they see further service?

[37114]

1 hour ago, MarkC said:

AFAIK the power unit did indeed go into the Class 50 'pool' - and is still extant? The bogies were standard EE - did they see further service?

The power unit ended up in 50023, it was damaged when a connecting rod smashed out of the block, presume it was scrapped when 50023 was scrapped. 

 

I would have envisaged if it had lasted then being stripped for parts was the most likely outcome.  I thought DP2 was a lovely looking loco, if the class 50s had looked like DP2 I would have been a fan, I thought the class 50 design to be ugly, especially compared to the class 47 or Westerns.

Edited February 27, 2022 by 37114
Typo

[MarkC]

19 minutes ago, 37114 said:

The power unit ended up in 50023, it was damaged when a connecting rod smashed out of the block, presume it was scrapped when 50023 was scrapped. 

 

Cheers. Yes, almost certainly scrapped after putting a leg out of bed.

[HillsideDepot]

Thinking of the EE becoming part of GEC line, could DP2 have fulfilled the engine test bed role which fell to 47046 / 47601 / 47901?

[Nearholmer]

Thats what I was wondering.

 

And, a wider test-bed too, perhaps for the gubbins that caused so much trouble on the 50s, and how to de-bug, simplify, or replace it.

[Davexoc]

On 27/02/2022 at 19:10, MarkC said:

AFAIK the power unit did indeed go into the Class 50 'pool' - and is still extant? The bogies were standard EE - did they see further service?

 

On 27/02/2022 at 20:30, 37114 said:

The power unit ended up in 50023, it was damaged when a connecting rod smashed out of the block, presume it was scrapped when 50023 was scrapped. 

 

I would have envisaged if it had lasted then being stripped for parts was the most likely outcome.  I thought DP2 was a lovely looking loco, if the class 50s had looked like DP2 I would have been a fan, I thought the class 50 design to be ugly, especially compared to the class 47 or Westerns.

 

The power unit originally went into 417, presumably in 1970 when DP2 was cannibalised. It threw a leg out of bed while in 50037 in 1991, which then recieved the power unit from 50023.

 

I remember seeing a power unit on the deck at OC in The Factory in the early 80s, it too had a leg out of bed, not pretty....

I don't know if that engine was stitched back together, but it may well have been, as we had an 08 that had frozen and cracked the engine stitched back together by an outside company.

[roythebus1]

Metal stitching is still commonly used to repair cracked blocks. I had a vintage Rover P3 engine done in the early 1980s and an RF bus engine done about 12 years ago. the P3 got written off when ex wife crashed it into a lamp post, the bus engine has been rebuilt again and is still running under a preserved RF somewhere.

[MarkC]

3 minutes ago, roythebus1 said:

Metal stitching is still commonly used to repair cracked blocks. I had a vintage Rover P3 engine done in the early 1980s and an RF bus engine done about 12 years ago. the P3 got written off when ex wife crashed it into a lamp post, the bus engine has been rebuilt again and is still running under a preserved RF somewhere.

I suppose it depends on economics/rarity these days - and how much damage was done when the failure occurred.

[kevinlms]

2 hours ago, MarkC said:

I suppose it depends on economics/rarity these days - and how much damage was done when the failure occurred.

A lot must depend on WHEN in the construction phase it occurred in. If it's a current production, it's cheaper usually to tack on another one to the production line, than to repair.

[37114]

8 hours ago, roythebus1 said:

Metal stitching is still commonly used to repair cracked blocks. I had a vintage Rover P3 engine done in the early 1980s and an RF bus engine done about 12 years ago. the P3 got written off when ex wife crashed it into a lamp post, the bus engine has been rebuilt again and is still running under a preserved RF somewhere.

Preserved 40012 has also had the block stitch welded as well. There was a picture on the defunct preserved diesels site of the damage to the DP2 Block, the damage was a chunk of block missing above one of the inspection panels.

 

[Nimbus]

Even in an internal EE/Vulcan document it was referred to as a Type 4 1/2. The Eastern Region were

delighted with its performance, where it could fill in seamlessly for Deltics while they were depleted

by works visits. So the Eastern might well have tried to hold on to it, and given the commonality of

the braking system with the Deltics, the dual upgrade package was pretty much ready-designed for

it, whether in EE/GEC ownership or BR's. After that, surely a chance at preservation.

 

I heard it coming, but was only quick enough to see its roof pass in the cutting, as I was walking back

from Potters Bar to Brookmans Park along the lineside footpath, one day in early Summer 1967. I

often wonder if that was on the occasion of its last trip.

 

The Nim.

[The Johnster]

Rode behind it Doncaster-Selby on a stopper in the summer of '66, and, having just experienced a very lively run from Manchester-Crewe with an 86 a few days before, was impressed with the accelleration of the loco.  Train was 8 or 9 mk1s and a Thompson strengthener (guess where I was riding) that was apparently supposed to be locked out of use, oh well... (a sawn off piece of park railings worked very well as a carriage key, trick learned from a Master Neverer). 

 

The 50s were pretty lively as well; my first ride behind one was two years later, Preston-Carnforth single headed, which was not unlike the Doncaster-Selby experience.  My fastest ever loco hauled run was behind a 50 in the 80s on the way to one of the Central Hall shows, a Sunday morning job for Bath Road men that included a leg of Cardiff-Paddington routed via Gloucester and Stroud, which usually lost time before it got to Swindon and on which you were guaranteed fireworks between there and London despite stopping at Didcot and Reading.  Stopwatch timing of quarter mile posts, verified by 2 of my companions, had us running at 114mph, sustained between Goring & Streetley and Pangbourne.  8 mk1s with B4 bogies. howling like only mk1s can but ride was fine!

 

We timed the HST on the return trip at 134 mph from Wantage Road to braking for Swindon, an interesting day all in all with some good layouts and a bag load of the sort of goodies you could only buy at shows in those days into the bargain.