BR grey wagons. The light shade - when and what name?

[t.s.meese]

Okay - so unfitted wagons were painted mid grey by BR. Not the same as, but not a million miles from, the LNER shade. This is the colour that the Bachmann 16T wagons appear in, also Oxford 6 plank and many others... However, photographic evidence shows that many 16T wagons (and others) were painted a much lighter pale shade of grey - like the Accurascale shade for their unfitted 21T wagons. I know grey faded, and the paint mixes varied and all that, but it seems there is good evidence that this lighter shade was real and widespread. However, I've never found any mention of it - e.g. the railmatch paints have only the mid grey. I tend to use railmatch 2206 Rail Grey for my 16T repaints. I don't think this is strictly correct (I think it is intended for some aspects of diesel locos), but is close enough as a practical solution. My questions are, 1. does anyone know what the pale wagon grey shade was called (perhaps it never had a special name, just one of 50 shades of wagon grey!) and 2. when this shade began to be used? I think it was quite widespread by 1961, and was not being used in 1948. 

Thanks

Tim.

[The Johnster]

Worms.  Can of.  Opened.

 

There wre all sorts of shades of grey painted on to BR's unfitted wagons and vans, especially in the early days when an austerity economy was still operating and some types of paints were difficult to obtain.  Paint shops often mixed their own colours, which varied according to what happened to be at hand, and thinned them down to make them last longer.  A good source of grey paint at this period would no doubt have been war surplus naval grey (perhaps one of the reasons for choosing this colour), which also came in different shades and hues.  As a further variety provider, the paint looked different on wooden and steel surfaces, and weathered and faded differently on them as well.  Mineral wagons tended to become darker in colour over time as coal dust became ingrained on them.  Unfitted wooden wagons were not painted at all in the  early days, though vans were,  It is very difficult to pin a colour down exactly.

 

But there were certainly different shades of grey in use, and the lighter one seems to have become standardised by the late 50s.  Of course, wagons painted previous to this remained in service for considerable periods in older liveries, and could still be seen 20 years later long after steam operation finished.  The best advice is, as usual, to work from photographic evidence of individual wagons, but this is not always available and one has to trust that RTR manufacturers have got it right for the wagons they produce or make a reasonable informed guess which you are prepared to rectify if better information comes to light. 

[Steamport Southport]

I have long suspected Railmatch colours as being a bit suspect. ISTR the GWR wagon grey is much too light.

 

Try Phoenix.

 

https://www.phoenix-paints.co.uk/products/precisionrailway/nationalised/p126

 

https://www.phoenix-paints.co.uk/products/precisionrailway/nationalised/p128

 

 

 

Jason

[The Johnster]

I use acrylics, which are easily mixed to get the shade I want; the acid test is 'if it looks right, it's probably right'!  One must discipline oneself (yes, yes, more, it hurts so good) in the difference between 'looks really nice' and 'looks right', and in my case this is further affected by the reliability or otherwise of my memory of watching trains 60 years ago.  This was of course when everything was in black and white, as colour was not invented by the Beatles until 1964...

[hmrspaul]

1 hour ago, t.s.meese said:

My questions are, 1. does anyone know what the pale wagon grey shade was called (perhaps it never had a special name, just one of 50 shades of wagon grey!) and 2. when this shade began to be used? I think it was quite widespread by 1961, and was not being used in 1948. 

Thanks

Tim.

Johnster has done better than my answers on this very frequently asked question. 

 

Grey - well wouldn't have been used on BR wagons in 1948, they only got to grips with having colour schemes in 1949. Many dark appearing MoD mineral wagons were in a red oxide or bauxite finish - not possible to tell apart on b/w photos. 

 

Light grey as you suggest was very generally used right from the beginning of BR in 49, should have a very slight blue influence but I suspect was too expensive. Lots of battleship grey used as war surplus. 

 

One model paint manufacture told me that Chas Roberts had got it wrong when I suggested his paints didn't represent the 1949 - 63 colour. Nothing should have been grey after 1963 but they then realised a mistake was made and re-introduced grey for unfitted somewhere around 1966 - but it was a darker colour. 

 

You can see how light the grey was on the officials copied by Accurascale for the early 21ton mineral with no black ground to the tare - it is almost unreadable there is so little difference. Why BR did this I don't know, but the RCH writing instructions requiring black grounds aren't issued until 1951. 

 

And to add to Johnsters comments, by 1959 the instructions had to include three different ways of applying paint, and they would all have had a slightly different appearance. 

 

So yes 50 shades of grey - always simply called Freight stock grey - and unless the wagons are supposed to be brand new; no two models should have the same paint mix used on them. 

 

Paul

[stewartingram]

I'm certain that Railmatch have produced 'early' (which I still have) and late BR grey (which I don't have in my stocks). However I must have had some as I've used Railmatch since it was intorduced and I have grey that I have painted which are different to the present early colour.

[hmrspaul]

24 minutes ago, stewartingram said:

I'm certain that Railmatch have produced 'early' (which I still have) and late BR grey (which I don't have in my stocks). However I must have had some as I've used Railmatch since it was intorduced and I have grey that I have painted which are different to the present early colour.

They do indeed, and claim they are accurate.

 

Unfortunately [BR] workshops* didn't see the official paint swatches and paint was mixed in the workshops to formula which deliberately had a degree of latitude in the weights permitted of each ingredient. If it looked right to the paint foreman then it was used. And paint would have been in short supply for many years (they couldn't even build some wagons for years after they appeared in the lists of what would be produced next year because of steel limitations). As I said I suspect many mixes lacked or were cautious with, the blue that was supposed to be in BR grey and which gives it an almost unreproduceable colour (Citadel paints Ghost grey was the nearest in my view and it went out of production 20 years ago). 

 

Paul

Who remembers when sweets went off the ration! A decade after the end of WW2

* there were hundreds of places where wagons could be repainted, patched up and renumbered. 

[kevinlms]

Would ex-LMS wagons that were previously bauxite (because the LMS painted all wagons bauxite from 1936 onwards) regardless if fitted or not.

If BR painted some of these grey, would they look darker, because they were repainted (somewhat faded) bauxite?

[t.s.meese]

2 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

I have long suspected Railmatch colours as being a bit suspect. ISTR the GWR wagon grey is much too light.

 

Try Phoenix.

 

https://www.phoenix-paints.co.uk/products/precisionrailway/nationalised/p126

 

https://www.phoenix-paints.co.uk/products/precisionrailway/nationalised/p128

 

 

 

Jason

I have also suspected that phoenix is probably more accurate than railmatch. I think I probably had a tinlet of the light grey about 20 years ago, but I switched to acrylics a long time ago and haven't looked back. Interestingly, the phoenix website cites 1964 as the transition date between greys. I don't think this can be right. I have several photos of grubby but uniform pale grey wagons from before then. I have wondered whether it happened at the time of the BR rebranding in 1956, the transition being largely complete by 1964?

[t.s.meese]

1 hour ago, stewartingram said:

I'm certain that Railmatch have produced 'early' (which I still have) and late BR grey (which I don't have in my stocks). However I must have had some as I've used Railmatch since it was intorduced and I have grey that I have painted which are different to the present early colour.

If they did, it is not evident any more (unless you include the Rail Grey that I mentioned in the OP); at least, not in the acrylic range. They do/did do three different versions of the bauxite, all of which I have, though the last time I looked (at Howes?) I could see only two of them. Amusingly, I have two pots of Railmatch 2322 BR Early Freight Grey, and they are totally different - one a shade or two different from LNER grey (approximately correct), the other much darker, a bit like GWR grey (I can only suppose this was a mistake in the mixing process, both carry the same name and number on the pot!)

[stewartingram]

I only use enamels, and have a big box of them from the early dayd. The range available has been reduced in recent years though.

 

edit to add:

As my interest is pre- Rail Blue, I've never bothered with the 'modern' colours either.

Edited April 3, 2022 by stewartingram

[Marshall5]

I find the Railmatch 'early' grey too dark so add their post 1965 grey to it in the ratio of 2:1.  I suspect that in 'real life' the variations were endless.

Ray.

[Michael Hodgson]

I've never been able to tell BR grey from battleship grey.

[Bernard Lamb]

7 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

I've never been able to tell BR grey from battleship grey.

But which battleship grey?

The firm I worked for painted a lot of products grey.

The story was that they got hold of a large amount of both black and white paint in 1946 or so and mixed them to make a light and a dark grey which they used on the products.

Battleship grey was a mix of 50/50.

If you are following my logic you get LBG and DBG by going 25/75.

Freight wagon grey, or probably more accurate to say mostly mineral wagon grey, was from what I can tell usually lighter than LBG.

As Paul points out it could be a very light shade.

Bernard

 

[hmrspaul]

21 hours ago, t.s.meese said:

I have also suspected that phoenix is probably more accurate than railmatch. I think I probably had a tinlet of the light grey about 20 years ago, but I switched to acrylics a long time ago and haven't looked back. Interestingly, the phoenix website cites 1964 as the transition date between greys. I don't think this can be right. I have several photos of grubby but uniform pale grey wagons from before then. I have wondered whether it happened at the time of the BR rebranding in 1956, the transition being largely complete by 1964?

As I suggested grey shouldn't have been being used in 1964 as the differentiation between power braked/piped and unfit was abandoned for a couple of years. When grey returned looking at my photos it didn't alter, but it was more consistent - the use of bought in prepared paints. I also suspect that a lot of rebuilds didn't get an undercoat - or if they did it was green or even grey and not the freight stock red that should be used in the 1950s and early 60s. These are all rebuilds with new bodies and look dreadful soon after release to traffic https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/mdorebuiltrenumber but to be used for this programme the frames were judged to have only 10 years life and many outlived that period. 

 

 

7 hours ago, Bernard Lamb said:

But which battleship grey?

The firm I worked for painted a lot of products grey.

The story was that they got hold of a large amount of both black and white paint in 1946 or so and mixed them to make a light and a dark grey which they used on the products.

Battleship grey was a mix of 50/50.

If you are following my logic you get LBG and DBG by going 25/75.

Freight wagon grey, or probably more accurate to say mostly mineral wagon grey, was from what I can tell usually lighter than LBG.

As Paul points out it could be a very light shade.

Bernard

 

 

But officially BR grey has blue in it, not  a lot but sufficient to give the elusive colour we are all struggling to reproduce. 

 

Yes, an elderly member of the HMRS (When I was merely 19 or so) mentioned asking at a workshop somewhere in Wales for a sample of BR grey - he only modelled iron and steel mineral wagons from the dawn of railways onwards. The result was the workshop manager got some black and white and mixed them together. 

 

Paul

 

[cctransuk]

Hornby Dublo usually got paint shades correct, and their 1960s wagons matched the prototype - at least, they matched newly-built wagons.

 

My experience is that Phoenix BR early wagon grey and wagon bauxite match the Hornby Dublo shades, and thereby the colour of new BR wagons.

I use nothing else, and achieve prototypical shade variation in the weathering process.

 

John Isherwood.