number6 Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 Interesting thread! A roller coaster of emotions... Marmite model or not perhaps its worth reflecting on how much work goes into a multiple unit compared to either a loco or coach. There are so many things that have to be right - aside from the basic shape - for the thing to look and run correctly. Having built a number of kit versions [bILs NOLs CORs etc.] and hacked up my Bachmann CEP and EPBs, getting everything right without compromise is really hard. Many of the out the box issues listed seem very familiar with the breed and not just a problem of this particular model. Issues can include: how to power, sorting ride heights between cars, choosing couplings within as well as between units. And then the level of fine detail you are happy with. These are all issues that are a trial for a kit builder or RTR hacker let alone for a RTR manufacturer. I do think Hornby have dug themselves a few holes for themselves in the location of the motor and the use of traction tyres. Wherever the motor is located the inter-unit couplings need to deal with a huge range of forces when propelling that may push the cars just slightly out of line with each other - a pet hate of mine! - or cause derailments. Lash two of these units together and I would imagine it is disaster in the making because of the harsh stop a traction tyre causes. When I was a kid everyone had Hornby HSTs and you were asking for trouble if running with the power car at the rear - it too had traction tyres and struggled with a prototypical rake. Plus ca change c'est la meme chose! Take any other RTR loco and stick it between three coaches and run in reverse I'm sure you'll get lots of problems. Producing a product that works without fail in this way may require more research and development than we are prepared to pay for maybe? I so want to like this model and give it the benefit of the doubt - and to be honest it is still our best shot at this class as the cast cab ends from elsewhere are no better. I still have a sneaking feeling that its feeling jinked by having been a much maligned in service - its almost an unlovable model. The CIGs being so much more a 'friendly' unit - had they chosen this instead: all would have been sweet! My final thought is the issue mentioned by Colin Parks about it not being raw material for hacking. The best starting points for this work are those models that need only be, in a basic sense, correct - no need to be perfect. I'm thinking of the amazing work done by Paul James on various DMUs using Bachmann Mk1s, old Hornby 110s and Met Cams. See here: http://www.emgauge70...lpageindex.html You can't do this sort of thing when the basic dimensions are out- or so much of the starting model goes into the spare box before you start. best R 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 ...Take any other RTR loco and stick it between three coaches and run in reverse I'm sure you'll get lots of problems. Producing a product that works without fail in this way may require more research and development than we are prepared to pay for maybe?... I would suggest that all the pieces are in place for exploitation. The coupler system is the crucial bit, then a smooth drive, free running wheelsets and well laid track. Using body mounted Kadee, or the Roco design close coupler in the close coupling mechs of Bachmann or Hornby coaches, I can push a dozen coaches with no trouble through any Peco streamline formation using large or medium radius points at speeds well in excess of scale . The smooth power from a good flywheel drive mechanism or DCC control is a great aid in delivering the stable drive required. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uk_Steve Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 (edited) @ S.A.C Martin and John M Upton i have a feeling i am going to be a bit nervey when mine comes i have spent a small fortune with a soundchip and i want it running perfectly hence spending over £250 can i ask what can i use to replace the traction tyres if they are as bad as they sound? i have a link to air horns on this thread the front end i am sure i be fine with weathering and pencil missing door handle does not bother me personly so can leave that is there anything on the market to make the coaches look more linked externally , like the real versions "ie when you walk from coach to coach" i would love to upgrade my Bachmanns class 411 cep at the same time if there is? thats about it i think thanks in advance from Steve Edited September 16, 2011 by Uk_Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
number6 Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 I would suggest that all the pieces are in place for exploitation. The coupler system is the crucial bit, then a smooth drive, free running wheelsets and well laid track. Using body mounted Kadee... These are all the essential elements for sure! It just seems lots of tried and tested methods of coupling and power have been missed. Even something along the lines of the Keen system for corridor connections would have been preferred - or at least something rigid and unobtrusive. Don't some model Euro EMUs couple via the corridor connectors? regards R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest oldlugger Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 (edited) Photos of the power bogie. Definitely larger wheels than on the Limby 73. Top photo shows Limby 73 power bogie at the top with upsidedown VEP bogie undeneath it. In 2011 I can't believe that a model like this can't have brakes in line with the wheel treads or close to them, like the Bachmann 2 EPB. This really spoils the oomph of the unit. I suppose it would be easier for someone to convert to EM or P4 though. Cheers Simon Edited September 16, 2011 by oldlugger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RFS Posted September 16, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 16, 2011 I have two Hornby class 73s with the latest motorized bogies - one has traction tyres and the other does not. I assume the wheels with tyres could be replaced if the non-tyred wheels were available as spares, as only a single axle is required. Bit expensive to get a complete set from Ultrascale though. The Bachmann 4-CEP has the power bogie at one end of the set, and I've experienced no running problems at all when the power car is at the rear of the train. I've even tried it with the power car at the rear with 4 Bachmann MK1s on the front so it's pushing 7 coaches, and again no problems even through curved Peco code 75 pointwork. As to close-coupling with the 4-CEPs, I've dispensed with using the lights because they're not very good anyway. This allows me to use NEM couplings of my choice between the coaches and I've fitted Rocos. These mean the corridors touch on straight track - especially with the power car at the rear. I was going to purchase a VEP but I've decided against it due to all the issues. My little passengers are benefting from extra CEP comforts instead.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium NGT6 1315 Posted September 16, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 16, 2011 Anyway, whilst watching The Hunt For Red October, I got to work doing a little work on one Driving Trailer: (...) While I really am not familiar with the real thing - very nice, John! Sure does illustrate how even small finishing touches can have a big effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meld Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 Hi All, Bogie 'handed' problem was noticed and reported in the Rail Express review, it was AFAIK reported back to Hornby before the article was sent for press .... Will look at seeing if anything other than Razer Saw Surgury can be done to correct them ..... The roof vents are also way too small and a vent is missing over the toilet area it should be a pair like all the other vents over the 1st Compartments..... replace with Southern Pride or MJT w/metal ones ... There is a 'rain' strip/gutter above the corridor and coach door at the toilet end of the DTC's that is not on the model ... add a piece of L angel Brass or Plastic Strip AFAIK the inner steps were removed off of most DTC,s around the same period as All MK1 coaches in line with the spread of OHL .. only the bottom one was retained ... Remove from the NSE livery one... repaint ends ... The inner gangway doors would look better in Rail Grey .. Hornby seemed to have used a white .. mind is a tad foggy here but belive they should be a grey shade.... I'll be repainting mine....... I also belive that the AWS isolation cocks and associated pipe work ( Although this Might be TPWS isolation equipment ) is missing from the buffer beam under the Drivers window and that the 'stirrup' Foot steps had been removed from most VEPs during refurbishment ... if it is AWS equipment it will need to be added .. definately if any of the TOC liveries are produced this is a vital detail piece The MBSO has the Guards 'stirrup' lower footstep missing on the non-corridor side ....... I think that I'll replace the 'weedy' Shoe fuse boxes with something from Southern Pride too..... Along with all the other previously noted mods and corrections ............ Mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceptic Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 (edited) There were two different shades of NSE blue: The paler blue livery was first applied from June 1986 on Network SouthEast's launch, initially with the BR double arrow logos, but from late 1987, they adopted a darker shade with the upsweep at each end curved rather than angular, at the same time approval was given for the blue band to finish below the door stops and handles to make it easier to mask off for repainting. The refurbished units first appeared in Mar. 1988 so always wore the darker shade of blue. I've seen all the RTR manufacturers each use subtly different shades of the dark blue livery. l've dug out this '80's photo, showing the differing, maybe somewhat faded ?, colours of the two NSE liveries. Note how bulbous the vents are on the VEP (nearest), unlike Hornby's 'Split peas on a drum'. Bye the way, the model's motor coach's wheel treads pan out at 13.3mm. tapering to 13.5mm. at the apex with the flange, So, again, some things are ok, others are ?....well...hmmmm ?. Regards. Edited September 16, 2011 by Ceptic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Welly Posted September 16, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 16, 2011 Mine's on it way to me even though I have a Southern Pride VEP kit in my "to do " drawer! I'm not bothered about the traction tyres because I plan to re-wheel to P4 in the future. For once, it's an RTR model that I'm not exactly looking forward to receiving.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kintbury jon Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 (edited) Right, i've done Johns modification of black round the windows and pencil line down the sides of the gangways and am much happier with its appearance. I quite like the red/white lights showing through the double white blanks though this obviously looks odd wen you have a numerical headcode. Having assumed that my unit is DCC fitted, I removed the (what looks like an) 8 pin chip and replaced it with a Hornby 8 pin blanking plate. Whilst the unit still ran, all the lighting ceased to work. I have reverted to the pre-fitted chip for now. Am I happy with the model overall? Probably yes. Whilst it required some tweaking, it does look alright, particularly the body sides and the ends look a lot better now. As well as the other criticisms mentioned, I think it's a shame that Hornby used yellow LEDs for the headlight and headcode box, white ones would have been much nicer. Edited September 16, 2011 by kintbury jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
303013 Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 http://www.ehattons.....aspx?SID=32689 Erm, its back up to an eye watering £148 now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 (edited) Erm, its back up to an eye watering £148 now It's not...still says "for £89 BARGAIN". Edited September 17, 2011 by S.A.C Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauln Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 Mine arrived today. I haven't taken the body off yet but mine has the same slip so assuming it has a chip this is not just a one-off issue. Update. Although mine has the DCC fitted slip it didn't have a decoder fitted. Just as well I had a nice Sapphire ready to slot in. It is now running in. Does anyone's elses (NSE) VEP sound a bit graunchy at low speed ? Maybe it is just running in needed but under speed step 7 the motor bogie sounds awfully like its about to seize up but fine at higher speeds. Slips a bit on 3rd radius curves too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
multiple madness Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 hi there guys just off the subject can someone please post the formation of the coaches on the 423 vep nse my br blue one is fine with all the lights working but for some reason i cant seem to get all the lights working on the nse version any help like a vid or picture formation will be appriciated cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium spamcan61 Posted September 17, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 17, 2011 Erm, its back up to an eye watering £148 now As pointed out, it is still 89 quid, but you'd think they'd make the sale price more obvious; OK it's in bold, but the same size font as the list price, and buried down in the bottom r/h corner of the page. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauln Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 hi there guys just off the subject can someone please post the formation of the coaches on the 423 vep nse my br blue one is fine with all the lights working but for some reason i cant seem to get all the lights working on the nse version any help like a vid or picture formation will be appriciated cheers The formation is shown on the operating instructions which should be in the box. look for the diagram that shows which sides the jumper boxes should be. DTCL (jumper boxes on offside) - MBSO (jumper boxes nearside) - TSO (nearside) - DTCL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold griffgriff Posted September 17, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 17, 2011 It's a pity that it doesn't quite cut the mustard. Any 2 or 3 problems alone would be tolerable but there seems to be a litany of small niggling issues that punters shouldn't have to accept in the 21st Century. I consider myself a reasonable modeller (I like to think in both senses of the phrase) but why should we have to bring it up to scratch as soon as it leaves the box. I shall wait and see if some of the more annoying features are corrected but until then I shall keep my cash in the wallet. The real shame is that the VEP is the most useful of the RTR 3rd Rail EMU's. They were simply ubiquitous across the electrified network. Oh well it looks like my EMU interests should perhaps go further east... My 2EPB's are adorable and I shall enjoy running them instead (oh if only Bachmann released 2HAP's to the same standard... but I mustn't grumble about near perfection) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
multiple madness Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 The formation is shown on the operating instructions which should be in the box. look for the diagram that shows which sides the jumper boxes should be. DTCL (jumper boxes on offside) - MBSO (jumper boxes nearside) - TSO (nearside) - DTCL cheers mate i looked at the diagram but was confused what the jumper boxes were i assume its the engraved square above the coupling point if im wrong let us know cheers again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Welly Posted September 17, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 17, 2011 (edited) Update. Although mine has the DCC fitted slip it didn't have a decoder fitted. Just as well I had a nice Sapphire ready to slot in. It is now running in. Does anyone's elses (NSE) VEP sound a bit graunchy at low speed ? Maybe it is just running in needed but under speed step 7 the motor bogie sounds awfully like its about to seize up but fine at higher speeds. Slips a bit on 3rd radius curves too. Mine arrived today and it also had the slip claiming that it was fitted with a DCC decoder even though the box states DCC Ready but a quick check on my DCC programming track found that there isn't one in mine - just a minor slip-up at the factory. I'm also running mine in on rollers ( on DC as I have no decoder for it yet ) on DC and yes it does sound a tad noisy at low speed. Anyway, my first impression is that it DOES capture the character of the real 4VEP notwithstanding the weedy horns & roof vents and the vestibule door being too far back. The horns and vents can be fixed without too much effort but the vestibule door is too tricky for me to rectify. Weathering is a MUST, especially the front recesses! I would love to know how to get the scabby roof effect that the real 4VEPs always had! Edited to add: I have just ordered the MJT scalloped dome vents from Dart Castings, they are supplied in packs of 30 and you need 44 dome vents for the set so 2 sets are on order! There is a tiny cylindrical thing behind each cab which is prototypical and so doesn't need replacing with a dome vent. I will ring Replica during the week to get the MU front end components as mentioned earlier in the thread. Edited September 17, 2011 by Welly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Evil Bus Driver Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 cheers mate i looked at the diagram but was confused what the jumper boxes were i assume its the engraved square above the coupling point if im wrong let us know cheers again The Jumper boxes were a sort of cabinet attached to the ends of the coaches. They carried the jumper cables between the cars. A photo of them is here: http://www.semgonline.com/gallery/pics/cd_4tc_5.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
303013 Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 *Homer Simpson* DOH!! */HS*. Thanks for that, I'm not dyslexic, but sometimes I do have to wonder... It's not...still says "for £89 BARGAIN". As pointed out, it is still 89 quid, but you'd think they'd make the sale price more obvious; OK it's in bold, but the same size font as the list price, and buried down in the bottom r/h corner of the page. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 Don't worry, we've all done it! I've been taking notes on the performance of my model as it is run in, much as I did with the Railroad Tornado a few months back, and it's clear the traction tyres are the source of most of the problems I am having with derailments. They grip the inside of the rail and derail the motor bogie. I have very tight curves on my roundy round - 2nd radius (!!!!!) but the VEP would go round fine if the traction tyres didn't climb the rail, due to the increased adhesion as a result of the rubber tyres. In comparison, my friend's 4CEP has no problems running round the same loop. I am also noting that the motor bogie falters over pointwork despite the plethora of contacts throughout the train. Is this down to the traction tyres as well? Possibly. Cleaning the wheels and rails did not improve the running, so the only conclusion is that the traction tyres are at work here. Disappointing and will be the first thing I change on the model, ahead of cosmetic changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium spamcan61 Posted September 19, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 19, 2011 I am also noting that the motor bogie falters over pointwork despite the plethora of contacts throughout the train. Is this down to the traction tyres as well? Possibly. Cleaning the wheels and rails did not improve the running, so the only conclusion is that the traction tyres are at work here. Disappointing and will be the first thing I change on the model, ahead of cosmetic changes. May be a problem with inconsistent back to back dimensions, if one wheelset is a bit too narrow it will cause slowing down through pointwork. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djlofty82 Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 Anyone else had problems with missing Shoegear????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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