Hornby Class 423 4-VEP

[kipford]

Ignoring any issues on fidelity/accuracy etc. I have had access to two 4-Veps now, a blue one belonging to another club member and my own NSE version. Both units are being converted to EM by the way.

 

The NSE version is still in original form but has been run in:

On 2nd radius curves its crap and de-rails the driving cab bogies, its looks like the bogie swing is marginal. It also has the slowing down drag problems reported by others.

On a 3rd radius oval with a single straight between each curve it was NO problem at all. Runs sweetly, quitely and at slow speed (this was all on DC control using a Gaugemaster controller). The unit was run in for 20 mins in each direction.

 

As the ruling radius on the EM layouts I have access to is 42", then radius is not going to be a problem.

 

The blue unit has been conveted to EM and chipped. The conversion is simple using KM 12 mm diameer wheels and Gibson narrow bearings (these are 2.5 mm in diameter (unlike the Nigel Burkin butcher the unit method), It allows the unit to be easily returned to OO if required. The only other thing done has been to add around 6oz of lead to the powered car to aid adhesion. I will post a write up on the conversion of the NSE one when it is done if anyone wants it. Any way performance: Once bedded in on on our big club EM roundy roundy the unit performs with out problem in either direction, runs at speed step one (out of 128), no slowing on corners and will climb a reasonable gradient (approx 1 in 100).

 

Regards

 

Dave

[spamcan61]

The VEP service sheet is now on the Hornby website, confirms it should operate on 2nd. radius curves:-

 

http://www.Hornby.com/search/?t=FileLibrary|Downloads&q=vep&tag=

 

Not sure what's happened to the usual exploded diagram with Xxxxx spares numbers, there are already eBay sellers stocking some VEP spares by part number.

[S.A.C Martin]

My letters are now in the post - sent to Frank Martin (Hornby), Simon Kohler (Hornby), Ben Jones (Model Rail) and Steven Flint (Railway Modeller).

 

It's in their hands now.

[NickL2008]

The VEP service sheet is now on the Hornby website, confirms it should operate on 2nd. radius curves:-

 

http://www.Hornby.co...oads&q=vep&tag=

 

Not sure what's happened to the usual exploded diagram with Xxxxx spares numbers, there are already eBay sellers stocking some VEP spares by part number.

 

Thats just the instruction manual, the spares sheet/s are on a seperate part of the Hornby website

 

NL

Edited October 14, 2011 by NickL2008

[metadyneman]

Ignoring any issues on fidelity/accuracy etc. I have had access to two 4-Veps now, a blue one belonging to another club member and my own NSE version. Both units are being converted to EM by the way.

 

The NSE version is still in original form but has been run in:

On 2nd radius curves its crap and de-rails the driving cab bogies, its looks like the bogie swing is marginal. It also has the slowing down drag problems reported by others.

On a 3rd radius oval with a single straight between each curve it was NO problem at all. Runs sweetly, quitely and at slow speed (this was all on DC control using a Gaugemaster controller). The unit was run in for 20 mins in each direction.

 

As the ruling radius on the EM layouts I have access to is 42", then radius is not going to be a problem.

 

The blue unit has been conveted to EM and chipped. The conversion is simple using KM 12 mm diameer wheels and Gibson narrow bearings (these are 2.5 mm in diameter (unlike the Nigel Burkin butcher the unit method), It allows the unit to be easily returned to OO if required. The only other thing done has been to add around 6oz of lead to the powered car to aid adhesion. I will post a write up on the conversion of the NSE one when it is done if anyone wants it. Any way performance: Once bedded in on on our big club EM roundy roundy the unit performs with out problem in either direction, runs at speed step one (out of 128), no slowing on corners and will climb a reasonable gradient (approx 1 in 100).

 

Regards

 

Dave

Steady on chaps.. we have a minority success story!...but it still needed modifications to make it run properly and it still doesn't pass the "fit for purpose out of the box" bracket!!

[zarniwhoop]

On 2nd radius curves its crap and de-rails the driving cab bogies, its looks like the bogie swing is marginal. It also has the slowing down drag problems reported by others.

 

The only other thing done has been to add around 6oz of lead to the powered car to aid adhesion. I will post a write up on the conversion of the NSE one when it is done if anyone wants it.

 

For the bogie swing on tight curves - removing the NEM socket seems to help, although I'm not convinced that an unweighted leading bogie (of this design) will follow a tight corner at speed. In the as-it-comes version, adding 4gm of weight to the leading bogie is enough to severely disrupt the speed into 18" curves :-(

 

So, yes, please share your secret for getting that much lead into useful places on the MBSO - at the moment. I can't imagine where you put it.

 

ĸen

[S.A.C Martin]

I keep returning to my 4VEP hoping against hope that the problems which have reared their head have magically fixed themselves...in fact I had a bit of a shock today when, whilst running it in, the model derailed quite badly at the front end.

 

Spot the cause of the derailment:

 

 

The traction tyre on the left hand side had sheared off at the point where the rubbing was at its worst. I have since replaced this traction tyre with one of the spares which I originally bought for my HST set. It was a tight fit (the HST wheels are marginally smaller I think), but thus far it doesn't seem to have affected the overall performance of the unit, in comparison to previous poor performances. And it is now running...ish.

 

Derailments still occurring in random places on what is a pretty basic (and well maintained!) oval layout.

 

I wish this had happened previous to sending my letters off...!

[metadyneman]

Partial Electrical lighting failure occurred in my Blue VEP yesterday. One of the Driving trailers interior lights strangely went out but the headcode panel was still lit. Investigation revealed there to be a wire which had come adrift on the small pcb on the coupling. This is not the first time I have encountered apalling soldering on Hornby locos (and decoders) they really need to sort their act out. Soldering the wire back on is going to be an absloute pig of a job to do on that tiny pcb.

[Matloughe]

I'd suggest you take it back to the shop you purchased it from Metadyneman - either that or contact Hornby's customer service department and see what they say - if you modify that PCB in anyway it will invalidate your warranty with Hornby and although they are generally quite flexible I have encountered the wrong person at their CS Department and had the item returned to me with a snotty accompanying letter telling me in no uncertain terms that the repairs done prior to sending it to them are the problem (they weren't I hasten to add) and to sling my (tension lock?) hook.

 

I'm not suggesting that you are incapable of the work Metadyneman; its just I don't want anyone else to be stuck in the position I was back in the day, especially if something 'worse' happens to your 4-VEP. (God what else could happen)

 

Hope that helps,

~ Gary

Edited October 16, 2011 by Matloughe

[S.A.C Martin]

I'd like to make an apology to Model Rail, and in particular Chris Leigh. Re-reading his review in the September issue, he quite clearly states that only the power car has pickups, the trailers NOT having pickups.

 

Mr Leigh's score for the blue 4VEP is also 76%, not 84% - which is what Ben Jones gave the NSE version in the issue after that one.

 

I clearly must have read the article wrong, and for that I apologise profusely.

Edited October 16, 2011 by S.A.C Martin

[david2]

Thought I would share my experience with my blue 4 VEP.

 

Out of the box when I first tried the unit coupled up its slow speed performance was very poor with very noticable slowing down on curves and pointwork and the motor was noisy. Also the trailng coaches seemed to have their brakes on! However, after putting minimal amounts of plastic friendly oil on all the free axles and greasing the cog wheel to the motor I found the unit to run much better after running in. I also took the precaution of running in the motor on rollers to avoid early stress on the motor.

 

Another thing that I often do if I am experiencing derailments is to put a minute amount of oil on the coupling mechanisms because sometimes there seems to be too much stiffness leading to derailing on tighter curves. I did this with my VEP.

 

After doing this the VEP finally operated to what I would deem an acceptable standard at both slow and higher speeds. It now has reasonablly smooth operation with only slight deceleraion on curves. Rather remarkably, it actually ran though the curved route of Peco code 75 medium radius points and double slips at full speed several times without derailing, although I will not be chancing my luck by repeatably doing this. However, performance was still very disappointing compared to the recent offerings from Bachmann.

 

Although there are numerous valid comments about the appearance of the VEP, I am not too worried about these because overall it is a fair representation of the unit in my eyes. Perhaps most people would have been reasonably happy with the product if it had had a better motor in it like the EPB & CEP from Bachmann?

 

I also found it very difficut to join the coaches up so that the lighting works. The connections in some of the coaces do not line up properly. I suspect that the system would not take kindly to continued disconnection and reconnection. I cannot say I am too bothered about lighting in coaces as it does not look that realistic to me. It would have been better for Hornby to have saved the money by not having lighting and spent it on a better motor.

 

Lets hope that Hornby learn from their obvious mistake of using an inferior motor for a product aimed at the enthusiast market.

 

Regards

David

[Venator]

I have read this forum with great interest and have gleaned much information.

 

I am not a professional modeller and really only want something that looks vaguley like the real thing. I'm not bothered if the front end is a couple of mm too wide or narrow, nor am I bothered by slightly innacurate detailing or colours. Lots of the issues raised here I don't think the "ordinary" modeller like myself are actually too bothered about.

 

I own an NSE 4VEP and have to say on the whole I'm happy with it. It runs round my 2nd radius loop (which includes x4 sets of points) with no problems and is a steady performer. I have also run it in tandem with a 2EPB and they run very well together.

 

Whatever its percieved faults: I'm happy that Hornby did a NSE 4VEP because otherwise I wouldn't have one!

[steve1023]

I returned my VEP because of an electrical problem in one of the driving cars (no lights & I didn't want to risk invalidating the warranty seeing if I could fix the problem) fully expecting to be sent a replacement unit, however on Saturday morning I got a call - because of the lack of lights the unit was to be sent back to Hornby and was basically given the choice of a new unit or a unexpectidly a refund - so I took the refund.

 

I then managed to source locally a brand new Bachmann plain green 2EPB which surprised me because I thought they where all gone and purchased that instead - I had held off buying the EPB because the VEP is local to me and the EPB isn't.

 

So now I have no VEP and a 2EPB that has replaced it.

 

Upon reflection I feel very lucky yet also disappointed not to have my VEP, disappointed because after all the VEP is one of the trains that served my local station and I had spent the last 20 months looking forward to receiving it and I really do want a Hornby VEP but I don't want to spend £140 for a brand new train that doesn't go round 2nd radius curves and now I have a 2EPB to go with my CEP and they run like a dream.....but they don't have the same nostalgia value that the VEP holds for me, lucky because I don't feel like I am out of pocket by £140 and the VEPs replacement does go round my 2nd radius curves.

 

I do feel in areas that Hornby have tried to cut corners with the VEP - the poor motor which compared to the Bachmann offering is sooooo budget, the poor cosmetics - the solid 1st class partition and the front gangway which is the same moulding as the gangways used throughout the model - the benefit is (maybe) an attempt by Hornby to produce a close coupled unit but on the front end that gangway moulding is not right. TBH the cosmetics don't bother me that much but the horrible motor does & right now (as I have already posted) I am hoping that if we ever get a 4CIG or 4TC it is made by Bachmann and not Hornby.

 

In the meantime if Hornby replace that old horrible motor for something modern like the Bachmann CEPs & EPBs I well definately come back for some VEPs but if they dont I will reluctantly not bother. In the meantime pre-order for the Belle is cancelled.

 

Please Hornby sort out the issues so I can spend more money on your VEPs.

 

Steve

Edited October 17, 2011 by steve1023

[Pennine MC]

I have read this forum with great interest and have gleaned much information.

 

I am not a professional modeller and really only want something that looks vaguley like the real thing. [snip]

 

Out of interest Venator, whom amongst the respondents to this thread do you see as a 'professional' modeller?

[Chris Dadson]

A friend who purchased a blue Hornby 4-VEP has a problem. The model he now has is the second, the original having been returned to the dealer for a replacement which turned out to have exactly the same fault. The problem is the lights in the 'headcode' boxes at either end are illuminating with the wrong colours for the direction of travel, i.e. the front panel displays a 'red' light while the rear panel displays a 'white' light. Change the direction of travel and the front and rear lights change to once more illuminate incorrectly. All 4 coaches are coupled as per the instructions and the internal illumination in each vehicle is fine.

 

Does anyone know the cause and a cure please?

 

Chris

Edited October 17, 2011 by Chris Dadson

[zarniwhoop]

Thought I would share my experience with my blue 4 VEP.

 

Out of the box when I first tried the unit coupled up its slow speed performance was very poor with very noticable slowing down on curves and pointwork and the motor was noisy. Also the trailng coaches seemed to have their brakes on! However, after putting minimal amounts of plastic friendly oil on all the free axles and greasing the cog wheel to the motor I found the unit to run much better after running in. I also took the precaution of running in the motor on rollers to avoid early stress on the motor.

 

After doing this the VEP finally operated to what I would deem an acceptable standard at both slow and higher speeds. It now has reasonablly smooth operation with only slight deceleraion on curves. Rather remarkably, it actually ran though the curved route of Peco code 75 medium radius points and double slips at full speed several times without derailing, although I will not be chancing my luck by repeatably doing this. However, performance was still very disappointing compared to the recent offerings from Bachmann.

 

Although there are numerous valid comments about the appearance of the VEP, I am not too worried about these because overall it is a fair representation of the unit in my eyes. Perhaps most people would have been reasonably happy with the product if it had had a better motor in it like the EPB & CEP from Bachmann?

 

I also found it very difficut to join the coaches up so that the lighting works. The connections in some of the coaces do not line up properly. I suspect that the system would not take kindly to continued disconnection and reconnection. I cannot say I am too bothered about lighting in coaces as it does not look that realistic to me. It would have been better for Hornby to have saved the money by not having lighting and spent it on a better motor.

 

Your comments on oiling are interesting - someone on newrailwaymodellers (damn - I've just blown my credibility!) recommended that. I've tonight oiled my first VEP with Peco oil (seems counter-intuitive to me when the axles run in the plastic of the bogies) and it helps, but only a little. When I "reverse" the unit (that is, run two trailers ahead of the MBSO) it still slows going into my 18" curves at sensible speeds, but less so than before, and if I run it flat out it appears not to slow - and, with the weighted leading bogie, nor does it derail. For the moment, I'll count this as a win!

 

Re the appearance, I agree with you - to me, the visible problems are the tiny ventilators (although, they seem to match the size of the vents on all RTR coaches - in any case, should be easy to fix) and the extended gangways - Simon Kohler seems to think these are accurate, but they only match the gangways within a train - as has been seen. modellers of skill can fix this with a hacksaw, the rest of us can bodge it ;-) Sure, when seen against a prototype photo (or an MJT end), the cab end doesn't really cut the mustard, but for the moment it's good enough.

 

For the [ expletive deleted ] connectors, I agree they are insufficiently robust - on my first (blue) unit, the second DTC no longer couples electrically, which (for me) is sad because I actually think the working lights look good - and a lot better when you can see through the first class compartments. I also suspect that the physical connection (what stops the train separating) is inadequate. Unfortunately, I'm persuaded to go with this lighting and I haven't yet seen any suitable alternative connectors.

 

One day soon I'll take my MBSO apart, now that the unit runs adequately, and see if I can come up with any way of getting the lighting current to the second DTC - and also look for places to put some more weight - unless kipford lets us in on his secret of adding 6 0z.

 

ĸen

[S.A.C Martin]

Can anyone know the cause and a cure please?

 

Chris

 

It is possible that the chassis of the trailer cars are fitted to the wrong body. Remove the bodies, and fit them to the other chassis. Failing that, they have been wired up incorrectly on the PCB inside the roof of the trailer car bodies.

[RJS1977]

Re electrical connectors. I haven't tried it on a VEP, but here's something I discovered with an HST a while back:

 

If you take the metal surrounds off the outside of a pair of 9-way D connectors (i.e. so you're just left with the plastic centres that contain the pins), they will just fit inside the corridor connectors. Obviously painting the D-connectors black helps disguise them, as does extending the corridor connectors using folded paper.

[davyjcrow]

A friend who purchased a blue Hornby 4-VEP has a problem. The model he now has is the second, the original having been returned to the dealer for a replacement which turned out to have exactly the same fault. The problem is the lights in the 'headcode' boxes at either end are illuminating with the wrong colours for the direction of travel, i.e. the front panel displays a 'red' light while the rear panel displays a 'white' light. Change the direction of travel and the front and rear lights change to once more illuminate incorrectly. All 4 coaches are coupled as per the instructions and the internal illumination in each vehicle is fine.

 

Does anyone know the cause and a cure please?

 

Chris

 

You can also try swapping the driving cars over. My unit illuminated for the wrong direction when I swapped the driving cars...was OK again when I switched them back.

[Uk_Steve]

I have read this forum with great interest and have gleaned much information.

 

I am not a professional modeller and really only want something that looks vaguley like the real thing. I'm not bothered if the front end is a couple of mm too wide or narrow, nor am I bothered by slightly innacurate detailing or colours. Lots of the issues raised here I don't think the "ordinary" modeller like myself are actually too bothered about.

 

I own an NSE 4VEP and have to say on the whole I'm happy with it. It runs round my 2nd radius loop (which includes x4 sets of points) with no problems and is a steady performer. I have also run it in tandem with a 2EPB and they run very well together.

 

Whatever its percieved faults: I'm happy that Hornby did a NSE 4VEP because otherwise I wouldn't have one!

 

thats great information Venator

 

i love to see a video of your working model if that is ok and the 2epb working together

 

maybe post it on here if you can because i am sure others would like to see the video

 

all the best from Steve

[metadyneman]

I have a video featuring the Hornby VEP running in consist on my garden layout with the Modelzone all blue Bachmann 4-CEP and also in a 12 car CEP+CEP+VEP 12 car consist. You may wish to take a look. The film was recorded before I started to encounter problems with the VEP which I'm glad to say have settled down again and the unit is running ok again now.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvcvYxDzbJY

[Uk_Steve]

love the 12 car!!! really like it

 

thanks for posting the video

Edited October 19, 2011 by Mod4
unnecessary full requote including embedded video of post above removed

[Venator]

PennineMC, I consider anybody who gets out a scale ruler to measure carriage heights / profiles to be a bit of a pro. Other "little" things such as the suspension links and colour of the lighting are something that I consider professional or "serious" railway modeller comments. Perhaps my standards are lower than those on RM web but I don't have any issues with the 4VEP, based on my own experience and running needs.

 

My philiosohpy is "if it looks like the real thing that's good enough for me". Hence why I have models such as the Lima 92 and Heljan 33 which have been slated on this forum.

 

UK_Steve: I can make a video of my 4VEP and EPB running round. I have a very, unrealistically steep, gradient which the 4VEP can get about 1/2 way up. I will attempt to do this at the weekend when I get a few minutes spare. Great suggestion!

[metadyneman]

I have a very "non rivetted" garden railway, the only requirement I insist on when trains run on my railway is that they do so without niggly, aggravating, irritating and unnecessary design faults that impede smooth running such as TRACTION BL*&%Y TYRES!

[Pennine MC]

PennineMC, I consider anybody who gets out a scale ruler to measure carriage heights / profiles to be a bit of a pro. Other "little" things such as the suspension links and colour of the lighting are something that I consider professional or "serious" railway modeller comments. Perhaps my standards are lower than those on RM web but I don't have any issues with the 4VEP, based on my own experience and running needs.

 

 

i dont think anybody has any issues with your choosing your own standards, whatever they may be, but surely the term 'professional' implies someone who gets paid for his modelling. That said, the folk raising issues here are just individual model buyers, who happen to have different standards or expectations to yours; I'm not sure that that warrants labelling them as 'professional' (or anything else for that matter).

Edited October 18, 2011 by Pennine MC