Johnster's 44xx

[melmerby]

On 19/06/2022 at 00:06, The Johnster said:

 

 

A chassis for yours might be a little less convenient than you suspect; I agree that everything can be replaced, but the Keyser chassis for this loco is an odd beast, split pickup with dead axle centres.

 

 

There was a part built one on the bay a couple of weeks ago and it quite clearly had a conventional chassis as underneath were the wipers and plastic blocks for pickups.

[The Johnster]

Which means that K’s must have redesigned the chassis at some time, which makes sense.  I only ever built one of theirs, a 57xx, many years ago, which had a conventional chassis with normal axles and pickup strips.  I don’t know which version is the chicken and which the egg in this story.  The split chassis works, but has plastic centre axles about 3mm diameter, so replacing gears is problematic. 
 

 

[1466]

Great to hear good progress being made . Nil carborundum!

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

Which means that K’s must have redesigned the chassis at some time, which makes sense.  I only ever built one of theirs, a 57xx, many years ago, which had a conventional chassis with normal axles and pickup strips.  I don’t know which version is the chicken and which the egg in this story.  The split chassis works, but has plastic centre axles about 3mm diameter, so replacing gears is problematic. 
 

 

They certainly changed over the years as the "70s" series were supposed to be upgraded from earlier ones.

I only ever bought 2 K's kits, both 70s series, a 48XX & the Autotrailer and they put me off Keyser kits for life.

Compared to Wills the white metal castings were crude in the extreme (distorted and poorly fitting) and the chassis of the 48XX was appalling.

 

Edited June 22, 2022 by melmerby

[melmerby]

There's an unbuilt 44XX kit currently on ebay at the best part of £200 inc postage from Italy!

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2380057.m570.l1313&_nkw=keyser+44XX&_sacat=0

[Steamport Southport]

15 minutes ago, melmerby said:

They certainly changed over the years as the "70s" series were supposed to be upgraded from earlier ones.

I only ever bought 2 K's kits, both 70s series, a 48XX & the Autotrailer and they put me off Keyser kits for life.

Compared to Wills the white metal castings were crude in the extreme and the chassis of the 48XX was appalling.

 

 

Still better than most RTR available at the time. Although the motors were awful.

 

First proper kit I built was the 14XX. The secret was to build it with a fixed trailing wheel rather than try and get it to swivel.  Even with it fixed, it was shorter than an 0-6-0T so unless you were trying to get it around extremely tight curves there shouldn't be a problem. It could run away with the autotrailer, unlike the Airfix version that really struggled with it.

 

Also didn't have the top feed for those that don't like them.

 

I don't think there has been anything close to bettering it apart from the very rare Perseverance kit. Both the Airfix and DJ Models 14XXs were let down with awful mechanisms.

 

I do have high hopes for the PDK kit though.

 

 

Jason

Edited June 22, 2022 by Steamport Southport

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Still better than most RTR available at the time. Although the motors were awful.

 

First proper kit I built was the 14XX. The secret was to build it with a fixed trailing wheel rather than try and get it to swivel.  Even with it fixed, it was shorter than an 0-6-0T so unless you were trying to get it around extremely tight curves there shouldn't be a problem. It could run away with the autotrailer, unlike the Airfix version that really struggled with it.

 

Also didn't have the top feed for those that don't like them.

 

I don't think there has been anything close to bettering it apart from the very rare Perseverance kit. Both the Airfix and DJ Models 14XXs were let down with awful mechanisms.

 

I do have high hopes for the PDK kit though.

 

 

Jason

The castings on mine were so poor they didn't fit together properly, the chassis sides were different lengths (How? you would assume they are all punched in a jig from fixed lengths of metal!), it was never a good runner.

On the Autotrailer, the solebars on a couple of the castings were at 90 degrees to the sides (Again, how? I assume they were one piece castings from a mould), which needed cutting off and resoldering in the correct position.)

The loco had trouble even pulling the autotrailer without wheel slip. The plastic roof supplied had a different arc to the cast ends etc. etc. The pair of kits were just rubbish from start to finish.

I ditched the original 48XX chassis many years ago and started on a brass replacement with fixed, but sprung trailing wheelset.

I've also tinkered with correct bogies for the autotrailer as well as a floor, some seating and different roof.

I have never really finished either satisfactorily even after 50 years of trying.

 

I had already built a couple of Wills bodies* which had much better casting quality.

 

* I am currently re-chassising my Wills U1 with a proper chassis (from Alan Gibson) with the correct wheel spacing after originally using the recommended HD R1 chassis.

[The Johnster]

I have two of those auto trailers, and they are an eye-opener in what was considered acceptable on model railways 60 years ago.  Mine were 2h and already assembled, but there seems to have been an odd method of assembly with the sides in two sections that I'm not sorry to have missed out on.  There was no floor and no interior beyond the compartment dividers. and as the whole thing except for the roof was whitemetal, they were, and mine are, very heavy!  A Baccy 4575 has trouble with them as a pair, but is fine with a train made up of one of these plus an Airfix/Hornby. 

 

Not completely hopeless, and there are very few kits for panelled auto trailers out there.  I alos have a Roxey Clifton Downs, an etched brass kit that is superb in every way.  The K's represent A31s, a 1920s rebuild of steam railmotors that were built at Swindon along with a lot outsourced, at least for the carriage part, to Gloucester RC&W.  The Gloucesters had double doors to the passenger vestibule while the Swindons had the usual single door, which makes the K's a Gloucester.  However, the bogies are wrong, as they are 'American Pattern' which were only ever used on Swindon examples. 

 

The bogie story is complicated by the use of new bogies on some of the rebuilds, but not all of them.  If I have it right, fingers crossed, the Gloucesters were originally given Churchward 'Fishbelly' bogies and the Swindons were given Americans at the carriage end as SRMs, but of course conversion from railmotor to auto trailer meant a shortage of bogies and the supply of secondhand fishbellies and Americans at the previous SRM end to match the existing bogies to some trailers, and replacement by Collett 7' bogies at both ends on others.  But no Gloucester double-door trailer had Americans.  One of mine, W 207 W, has fishbellies (Stafford Road Works/Shapeways 3D), and plated in toplights, and the other, W 211, has Collett 7'.  A feature of these trailers is that the bogie at the old SRM end is set further in from the end of the coach than the one at the cab end, which is very noticeable with the Collett 7'.  The 3D printed bogies are very free-running with Bachmann 14mm wheels, which is just as well as the weight of these monsters means that the loco needs all the help it can get!

 

Working up can be done to whatever extent you want, of course, but there is only so much that a t*rd can be polished.  A floor and a proper interior are well worth the effort, though, as are lamp brackets and door handles; a bit of relief on the sides and ends lifts the model.  My roofs fit ok!  They serve at Cwmdimbath as place-holders for the correct A10 and Diagram N trailers that were allox there in September 1953 for the start of auto services in connection with the 'regular interval' Valleys timetable of that year, not that Tondu's autos ever ran at regular intervals and were never intended to...  The initial allocation was of gaslit trailers in view of the slow speeds on the Porthcawl Branch, which were thought to be incapable of charging electric light batteries, and included the last surviving Clifton Downs driving trailer, W 3338, Diagram N nos. 37 and 38, an A10, and a gangwayed TVR set, GW diagram A20.  Eventually the gaslit trailers were replaced with A30s, A43/4 'Cyclops' compartment trailers, and, in later days on the Porthcawl branch, A38s.  64xx replaced 4575s in 1960 after track 'rationalisation' north of Cwmmer Afan allowed the terminus to be moved to Blaengwynfi, and track lifted at the now-closed Abergwynfi station though the line to Avon Colliery remained in use.

 

Photos of Abergwynfi show several instances of auto trailers being hauled by 57xx panniers, as ordinary trains needing running around at the terminus, and study of the allocation of auto-fitted 4575s suggests that there were barely enough to cover the booked diagrams. so if one was away at works or having a boiler washout, it looks like the substitution was 'Abergwynfi first'; in my world it's Cwmdimbath.  OTOH one sees photos of the auto-fitted 4575s hauling normal stock as well, Collett bowenders so not compartment cyclops autos.  Hmm.

 

Anyhoo, back to 4404.  I almost completed the erection of the rh motion yesterday evening, it is done except for a retaining boss on the extended centre crankpin, piece of insulation like the lh side, should be done this evening but I've a barby planned, so maybe tomoz, then I'll post some photos of the bodgery.

Edited June 23, 2022 by The Johnster

[Steamport Southport]

1 hour ago, melmerby said:

The castings on mine were so poor they didn't fit together properly, the chassis sides were different lengths (How? you would assume they are all punched in a jig from fixed lengths of metal!), it was never a good runner.

On the Autotrailer, the solebars on a couple of the castings were at 90 degrees to the sides (Again, how? I assume they were one piece castings from a mould), which needed cutting off and resoldering in the correct position.)

The loco had trouble even pulling the autotrailer without wheel slip. The plastic roof supplied had a different arc to the cast ends etc. etc. The pair of kits were just rubbish from start to finish.

I ditched the original 48XX chassis many years ago and started on a brass replacement with fixed, but sprung trailing wheelset.

I've also tinkered with correct bogies for the autotrailer as well as a floor, some seating and different roof.

I have never really finished either satisfactorily even after 50 years of trying.

 

I had already built a couple of Wills bodies* which had much better casting quality.

 

* I am currently re-chassising my Wills U1 with a proper chassis (from Alan Gibson) with the correct wheel spacing after originally using the recommended HD R1 chassis.

 

Maybe they were better quality in the 1980s?

 

Mine were all ones bought in Hattons around 1982 to 1986 with shrink wrap and in silver boxes. Certainly weren't ones from the 1950s or '60s.

 

Most by then had better chassis. Some even had ready made valve gear such as the MN and LN.

 

 

Jason

Edited June 22, 2022 by Steamport Southport

[melmerby]

They came in red boxes with "70s Series" overstamped.

Pre shrink wrap but post first series.

[The Johnster]

As of about 22.30 this evening, 4404 has a rolling 0-6-0 chassis, not I’ll be the first to admit anything that is going to push the boundaries of the very cutting edge of finescale modelling, and I’m sure there will be those that will regard as an offence against such modelling.  To go back to the first principles of this project, the aim is to cobble an acceptable 44xx for Cwndimbath, improving the appearance of the K’s model as far as easily achievable, and I would contend the chassis is in line with those principles. 
 

Here are some photos of the finished chassis, which needs painting.  Note the packing pieces behind the cylinders to get the connecting rods parallel with the coupling rods. 

[The Johnster]

Apologies to my legion of followers (1466), nothing done for a few days despite the project being at a critical juncture and that I’m keen to crack on.  I’ve been laid low, cruelly cut down in my prime, with a foul lurgy, not Covid more like summer man flu, but a full on snotfest and my head felt like it was full of wet cotton wool with something thumping about in it; lovely!
 

Still producing copious nasal unpleasantness, but the fever is broken and I should be back in the modelling chair soon!

[The Johnster]

The xfers arrived from HMRS this morning and I have a bottle of Meths, so there will probably be bodyshell progress very soon.  Feeling a bit lethargic now just, weather to blame I think, so maybe tomoz!

[1466]

“Tomorrow will be a better day “ Captain Sir Tom Moore .

[The Johnster]

The good captain is spot on with that observation! 
 

Did a bit more messing around with the chassis, which now has Bachmann trailing wheels on a home made pivot, but the big news is that 4404 is no longer embarrassed to show who owns her, BRITISH RAILWAYS in Egyptian Serif shows pride in public ownership but also her deeply GW roots.  Long time since I’ve used HMRS Methfix and had forgotten what a joy they are!

 

A note for anyone following these scribblings as a guide to their own 44xx; for 4404 I’m working from a photo taken at Tondu in September 1948, and this has thrown up an anomaly!  The HMRS transfer as supplied is shorter than the writing on 4404’s tanks in the photo, and indeed than the similar sized lettering on ‘GREAT WESTERN’ lettering on the HMRS sheet.  The remedy is easy; you cut between ‘BRITISH’ and ‘RAILWAYS’ and align the transfers as per the photo, at least for 4404 in this livery, but it does show the value of working from dated photographs of good provenance, John Hodge & Stuart Davies’ ‘Tondu Valleys’ in this case. 
 

OK, here she is!  Does anyone know what the route availability and power class was for these engines?

[Steamport Southport]

And another one has appeared on the Hatton's website.....

 

 

As for route disc they were either Yellow or Uncoloured. I'll have a look in Prairie Papers tomorrow but I think Yellow C like the 45XXs. But might have been Uncoloured as they seemed to work lines that 45XXs weren't allowed to.

 

 

 

Jason

[Miss Prism]

Even with an enlarged bunker, the axle weight maximum for the 44xx was 13.5T, so well within the uncoloured category. I can't find any 44xx pics with a yellow disc.

 

[The Johnster]

Can’t make out a disc on the Hodge/Davies book photo but there is a discernible C above the number plate, so I’m going with that, as per the inestimable Ms P’s suggestion. 

[Miss Prism]

A C without coloured disc.

 

 

 

[melmerby]

17 hours ago, The Johnster said:

The xfers arrived from HMRS this morning and I have a bottle of Meths, so there will probably be bodyshell progress very soon.  Feeling a bit lethargic now just, weather to blame I think, so maybe tomoz!

Shouldn't drink and model at the same time............🙂

[The Johnster]

Sh’nevva boverr’d me (hic) preevyushly! Now, wish wun of zjeshe 44sh am I doing?…

[Steamport Southport]

Seems someone has bitten. Both Hattons 44XXs now gone.

 

Good job really as I was starting to take pity on the one with a missing cylinder.

 

 

 

 

Jason

[The Johnster]

Houston, we have a problem…

 

Probably the result of a heavy-handed Johnster trying to force fit the stub of the rear rh axle into it’s correct position in the d-shaped quartering recess in the plasic centre axle, or there may have been a hairline crack there before that slipped through my scrutiny net, but this seems to have been at the root of the chassis stiffness when the motor attempts to drive it from the geared centre axle; the rear rh wheel  is pulled forwards so that it doesn’t sit square on the railhead and the coupling rod become tight on the crankpin, and the lh wheel attempts to twist to accommodate it, leading to more stiffness.  What is it with commercially produced split-chassis pickup chassis…
 

I’ve reset it all back up after a superglue repair to the insulating material inside of the frame (seem to remember this stuff being called Paxolin, and it being prone to brittleness with age; it is in fact quite crumbly in this area, which does not bode well!) and reinforcing it with a solder reapair on the copperclad outside, but I wouldn’t pass it for heavy load bearing duty, luckily 4404 will not be called upon to do anything strenuous at Cwmdimbath nor to put in much in the way of mileage for that matter. 
 

Despite, or perhaps because of, the rh side of the, the chassis is running freely enough on a ‘push along the bench test’; stopped for dinner now and it remains to be seen how we get on with the motor in and on the track!

 

[The Johnster]

All re-assembled and put together for photo, but running is decidedly wobbly, because the outer wheelsets are not square or the same height in the chassis.  I’ll bang on with body details, numbering, and weathering, but will not be happy for the loco to go into service like this.  A bit of thinking will be needed before the next stage on the chassis is attempted, and the ultimate answer might be some sort of modified Comet chassis with Markits wheels and gears. 
 

As a proof of concept, it is a success; a Keyser kit 44xx can be improved in appearance using parts from a Baccy 45xx.  4404 has Baccy cylinders, slide bars, and motion, as well as pony and trailing trucks.  The pony has a home made pivot and mount, as the Baccy frame for it fouls on the insides of the Keyser main frames.  A short arm of plastic pivots on the K’s front tubular  cross member, superglued to the top of the Baccy pony housing. 
 

 

Shiny in a recent coat of paint, 4404 runs in to Cwmdimbath past the NCB loco shed with a train of late liveried GW stock from Bridgend, sometime in the spring of 1948. Not visible on this shot are the Baccy 45xx brakes; I’m intending to have a go at grafting the leaf springs to the bottom edges of the frames as well.  Once she’s weathered she’ll look more at home with BR carmine liveried stock!

Edited July 4, 2022 by The Johnster