Johnster's 44xx

[Siberian Snooper]

Have you considered using the Alan Gibson crankpins? They are M1 countersunk machine screws, they also have a selection of different length bushes.

 

 

[The Johnster]

They are certainly worth investigating, Siberian, but I haven't made any decisions or even done the research/window shopping yet!  4404 is turning into an interesting and satisfying project, constantly throwing up unforseen problems for me to solve.  Great fun!

[Halvarras]

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

 4404 is turning into an interesting and satisfying project, constantly throwing up unforseen problems for me to solve.  Great fun!

 

I know what you mean. Up until just over a year ago I was working my way through some 'modern' models, fitting the detail parts with some renumbering. I still have lots of those to do, but thanks to certain threads here on RMweb I got diverted onto older mostly Tri-ang-Hornby stuff and found myself using up a pile of bits, including gears, wheels, crankpins, a can motor with flywheel, buffers, couplings and old transfers, and it has involved a lot of problem-solving which keeps the ol' grey matter alive and kicking - that becomes ever more important! Seeing all those parts finding a purpose has also been hugely satisfying, if a tad frustrating in places (to the point of considering launching one project out of the window) although I suppose that's part of the process......having just upgraded a pair of TH 'shorty' clerestories for my newly-restored 'Nellie' to haul about (more Jackson wheels and Kenline whitemetal oval coach buffers - 36p for 12! - used up) I'm now working on installing Hornby Railroad Class 37 bogies (from Lendon's of.......you'll know!) into a Lima 50149 'Defiance' because the prices the Hornby model is now fetching are over the hill and far away. It's taking some careful measuring and surgery but it's enjoyable and the desire to see how the finished loco looks and runs is what pushes it forward, right now in preference to getting back into the 'modern' stuff - I'll return to that in the course but, although offering much faster throughput with great results these days, it's nowhere near as challenging.

 

I'm watching 4404's progress with interest, as long as the number of steps forward exceed the number of steps backward you'll get there eventually! 👍

 

Right, I'm off to form some Class 50 bogie steps from a pair of long-redundant punched metal Wrenn Class 08 radiator ladders.......

[The Johnster]

Yes, that's the sort of shennanigans...

 

Have you done anything to the bogies on your shorty clerestories?  The following is not scale modelling, and suitable Dean 8'6" bogies are available as 3D prints from Stafford Road Works on Shapeways if you want to do a 'proper' job, but the highly incorrect B1 bogies that the shorties come with can be made to look into something resembling 8'6" Deans within the '2 foot' rule.  All you need to do is to cut away the tiebars and provide a running board step, which on mine consists of a wooden coffee stirrer (motorway services, Sainsbury's cafe, Wetherspoons etc.; the price is right), cut in half lengthways, reliefs cut out to accommodate the axle boxes, and superglue on, then paint matt dark brown/grey.  The difference in appearance is 'quantum', and given that the shorties are not accurate models of anything anyway, perfectly acceptable IMHO. 

 

Coffee stirrers can also make planked building exteriors, wagon loads of course, and are handy as general poking and scraping tools.  I have Stafford Road 3D bogies on other vehicles, though not Deans; they do 8'6" and 10' Deans, Churchward Fishbellies and Americans, and both 7' and 9' Colletts, but not Hawkworths, and they run very well with Hornby or Bachmann coach wheels.  They have NEM pockets printed in and I can unreservedly reccomend them despite their being a little pricey, as most 3D stuff seems to be; no connection satisfied customer.

[Halvarras]

I have cut away the tiebars so I'm halfway there........well, that took less than 10 minutes so not really! I have considered adding the steps and may do so one day (good tip - nothing looks more like wood than wood!) but these two vehicles are in BR crimson/cream livery from the R1089 'Anglian' set and, being hauled about by my rewheeled and regeared 'Nellie' in British Steel blue extensively lined out in orange/black/orange, it's all gloriously and refreshingly freelance. 

 

I wonder if like me, when working on any particular project, you can't resist taking a look online to see how others have tackled it (and almost always seem to end up on RMweb!) Sometimes it pays off - I had considered using some spare Lima Class 117 seat units to form interiors for these coaches but during one of those trawls I discovered DC Resin Replicas, who produce drop-in seat units at a price which suddenly made all that proposed sawing, filing and gluing seem extremely unappealing. Their chunky nature also adds enough weight to make additional ballast unnecessary (even if 'Nellie' does have side tanks stuffed with lead!) Me also, no connection other than satisfied customer.

 

Anyway, before my clerestory shorties hijack your thread, back to number 4404.......!

[JimC]

3 hours ago, The Johnster said:

... can be made to look into something resembling 8'6" Deans within the '2 foot' rule.  All you need to do is to cut away the tiebars and provide a running board step,

I've been mulling that over, with maybe a couple of extra bits of plastic to give an impression of the gear at the end of the scroll irons:-)

[The Johnster]

Had a look at the bodyshell yesterday evening, and have sprayed a coat of acrylic matt varnish as a key for the repainting, and sprayed the smokebox area and the cab roof matt black.  Another HMRS GWR sheet for the 'BRITISH RAILWAYS' Egyptian Serif early 1948 lettering is on order, Methfix because they're out of stock of Pressfix.  It is a very long time since I've used Methfix transfers and I will have to buy some meths tomorrow as well as a fresh pot of GW green paint.  I will need to replace a handrail knob on the front of the smokebox, short handrail and knobs on the top of the boiler, the sandboxes, and cab & front steps, also whistle and vacuum bags.  Happy with the existing sprung buffers.  I'll probably at least look into the possibility of better retrofit tank filler caps and lifting rings, and of course it needs lamp irons.  There is already a reasonable load of coal in the bunker, along with a bucket! 

 

Like all kit and RTR GWR prairie tanks, not to mention 56xx and the 8-coupled tanks, the sliding draught-prevention shutter is cast or moulded in to the white metal or plastic depending on the model, which deprives me of the opportunity to model it in the closed position.  I'm sure Tondu's 44xx ran with the shutters closed sometimes; standing in Porthcawl station with a stiff easterly blowing sleet at you off the Bristol Channel on a winter morning could not have been much fun otherwise!  The point is that I am going to have to hide the motor, and while cutting the rear of the drive shaft off (or painting it black) will help, I will not be able to include backhead detail or even much of a cab floor, so crew blocking the view will be the best I can manage.  The flywheel that I cut off the original motor will not be used again as it will even further compromise the look of the cab.  I might be able to manage some bunker bulkhead detail, which will further help to hide the emptiness, the awful mocking emptiness inside that we all feel on occasions, the long dark teatime of the soul, the futility and pointlessness of existence, the longing for the eventual merciful released of death balanced by the terror of it...

 

Didn't think the post was going to take that turn, did you?  Sunday afternoon gets me like that sometimes...

[1466]

Ooh er Johnster ! I certainly did NOT see that coming !

[Halvarras]

Oooh 'eck Johnster, that was going so well until.........I think you need to put 4404 aside for a bit and have a rummage through your unfinished projects pile for something offering a quick win, to lift your spirits!

 

Or wait until Monday dawns. 

 

(Depends what you think of Mondays of course.......🤔)

 

[The Johnster]

Same sh*t, different day.  I am clinically depressed, and sometimes lose the battle to cope with it, apologies for bringing everybody down, take no notice of me.  No, good idea, but I'll be disciplined, I won't pick up one of the other projects until I finish this one unless I'm seriously stuck with 4404, and I'm not, yet anyway, into town shortly for green paint to finish off the bodyshell, transfers on the way, progress being made albeit slowly and not always in a forward direction!

[1466]

Johnster , thank you for sharing. That takes great courage .
I’m not making light of your condition or circumstances.

Be reassured that there are a least 2 of us who care .

All the best Ken 

[The Johnster]

Thanks Ken, it's appreciated.  I've had a lot of support from people on RMWeb, especially on the 'Modelling Mojo' thead.  As I say, I cope most of the time but sometimes it overwhelms me.  Feeling a bit better today; went into town earlier for green paint and am about to go into the railway room to put a coat on to 4404, so that's a bit of positivity!

[Halvarras]

I must admit that on reflection, if you do have a pile of unfinished projects it exists because there aren't any quick wins in there anywhere! Best to concentrate on 4404, hopefully it will help take your mind off things. 

 

Speaking of which, I noticed that Hattons Preowned posted a K's 44xx in today's listing - saw that and thought of you! Such things don't come up very often.

 

All the best Johnster, you're in my thoughts.

[The Johnster]

1 hour ago, Halvarras said:

I must admit that on reflection, if you do have a pile of unfinished projects it exists because there aren't any quick wins in there anywhere! Best to concentrate on 4404, hopefully it will help take your mind off things. 

 

Speaking of which, I noticed that Hattons Preowned posted a K's 44xx in today's listing - saw that and thought of you! Such things don't come up very often.

 

All the best Johnster, you're in my thoughts.

Thanks, I appreciate it.  £39 for a Keyser without a rh cyldiner and damage to 'valve gear'; I think they mean motion, no thanks I've enough on my plate with the one I've got... 1st coat of green is on and she's starting to look the part a bit more now!

[Halvarras]

Just checked, I didn't realise they had two - it was the £45 one (PO07 - with both cylinders!) I was referring to, but I know you don't want (or need) two 44xx's - or have your patience taxed a second time! 

 

I have often spotted hopeless cases and thought 'I have the parts to fix that'...........and many of them ended up added to my own pile of unfinished projects 🙄. It happened again just the other day with a Tri-ang 'Lord of the Isles', but I have finally learned to leave such things to others to practise their modelling skills on, as I may have the parts but I have more than enough to do already.......

[Steamport Southport]

On 14/06/2022 at 01:52, Halvarras said:

Just checked, I didn't realise they had two - it was the £45 one (PO07 - with both cylinders!) I was referring to, but I know you don't want (or need) two 44xx's - or have your patience taxed a second time! 

 

I have often spotted hopeless cases and thought 'I have the parts to fix that'...........and many of them ended up added to my own pile of unfinished projects 🙄. It happened again just the other day with a Tri-ang 'Lord of the Isles', but I have finally learned to leave such things to others to practise their modelling skills on, as I may have the parts but I have more than enough to do already.......

 

Just bought what seems to be a reasonably well built, but not working version for £30 from the same source. Been about half a dozen of them in the last few weeks.

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/911497/keyser_k_s_l4keyser_po09_class_44xx_2_6_2t_4408_in_br_black_pre_owned_sold_as_seen_non_runner_kit_bui/stockdetail

 

More interested in the top half personally. Things like motor, gears, wheels, valve gear, etc can be replaced.

 

I don't normally go for built kits and would have preferred an unbuilt version. But having kept an eye out for some time on eBay and the like, they do seem to go for quite high prices. Worth a risk? I reckon so.

 

Yep. I know the livery is wrong for a loco that was withdrawn in 1953!

 

 

Jason

[DCB]

17 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Just bought what seems to be a reasonably well built, but not working version for £30 from the same source. Been about half a dozen of them in the last few weeks.

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/911497/keyser_k_s_l4keyser_po09_class_44xx_2_6_2t_4408_in_br_black_pre_owned_sold_as_seen_non_runner_kit_bui/stockdetail

More interested in the top half personally. Things like motor, gears, wheels, valve gear, etc can be replaced.

I don't normally go for built kits and would have preferred an unbuilt version. But having kept an eye out for some time on eBay and the like, they do seem to go for quite high prices. Worth a risk? I reckon so.

Yep. I know the livery is wrong for a loco that was withdrawn in 1953!

Jason

The wheels are the hardest bit to source,  put the old ones on eBay if you replace them and I'll be putting in a bid.

[The Johnster]

Welcome to the world of 44xx, Jason, one of us, one of us...

 

A chassis for yours might be a little less convenient than you suspect; I agree that everything can be replaced, but the Keyser chassis for this loco is an odd beast, split pickup with dead axle centres.  If your wheels need replacing, then you will probably have to scratch build a chassis, because the axle holes provided by Keyser are the wrong size for Markits or other retrofit wheels.  I will be using Bachmann cylinders, slide bars, and motion, which is more detailed than the K's, and at least attempting to shoehorn some of the Baccy underframe and brake detail on to the finished loco as well, but am retaining the original wheels and chassis, having sourced a replacement motor (the original was on it's last legs and shorting in the commutator area).

 

My chassis is currently sans connecting rods, xhead, or pistons, so plenty can go wrong yet and no doubt will, but for now it is running quite well, with a sensible top speed and creditable quietness and smoothness for something of such an antiquated design.  The original had a flywheel, which I reckoned was hindering smooth starting and stopping, and has been dispensed with so that I can hopefully include some cab interior detail.

 

Bit of progress to report; the bodyshell repaint is complete and is awaiting the transfers ordered  a week ago from HMRS (4404 is unlined green and will have Egyptian Serif BRITISH RAILWAYS lettering as photographed at Tondu September 1948 in the John Hodge/Stuart Davies 'Tondu Valleys' books.  The loco was w/d from TDU in the April of 1952, and noted inside the erection shop at Caerphilly Works on 2/4/48 (according to BRDatabase), so this was very likely her last livery.  Also pending are Railtec number plates.

 

The HMRS xfers are Methfix, and I haven't used those for many a long year!  Seen to remember they were pretty good, though!

 

So, with work on the bodyshell currently on stop, I'll try and get a bit more done to the chassis in the week

 

[1466]

8 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Welcome to the world of 44xx, Jason, one of us, one of us...

 

A chassis for yours might be a little less convenient than you suspect; I agree that everything can be replaced, but the Keyser chassis for this loco is an odd beast, split pickup with dead axle centres.  If your wheels need replacing, then you will probably have to scratch build a chassis, because the axle holes provided by Keyser are the wrong size for Markits or other retrofit wheels.  I will be using Bachmann cylinders, slide bars, and motion, which is more detailed than the K's, and at least attempting to shoehorn some of the Baccy underframe and brake detail on to the finished loco as well, but am retaining the original wheels and chassis, having sourced a replacement motor (the original was on it's last legs and shorting in the commutator area).

 

My chassis is currently sans connecting rods, xhead, or pistons, so plenty can go wrong yet and no doubt will, but for now it is running quite well, with a sensible top speed and creditable quietness and smoothness for something of such an antiquated design.  The original had a flywheel, which I reckoned was hindering smooth starting and stopping, and has been dispensed with so that I can hopefully include some cab interior detail.

 

Bit of progress to report; the bodyshell repaint is complete and is awaiting the transfers ordered  a week ago from HMRS (4404 is unlined green and will have Egyptian Serif BRITISH RAILWAYS lettering as photographed at Tondu September 1948 in the John Hodge/Stuart Davies 'Tondu Valleys' books.  The loco was w/d from TDU in the April of 1952, and noted inside the erection shop at Caerphilly Works on 2/4/48 (according to BRDatabase), so this was very likely her last livery.  Also pending are Railtec number plates.

 

The HMRS xfers are Methfix, and I haven't used those for many a long year!  Seen to remember they were pretty good, though!

 

So, with work on the bodyshell currently on stop, I'll try and get a bit more done to the chassis in the week

 

Good to hear such a positive report , Johnster . I had a note in diary to see how things were progressing.

 

[33C]

Methfix! Yes, they are good. Once they are on, they stay on!

[The Johnster]

The bodyshell is by no means finished in a 'ready for service' sense; there is a replacement handrail, top of boiler, vac pipes/bags, whistle, and cab & forward footsteps to fit, as well as number/shedcode plates (1951 photos in Hodge/Davies of 4404 at Pyle show that these were fitted by that date, not possible to make out lettering or totem on side tank, but the photo re-enforces the impression of unlined green livery), but the main job here was the repaint, which is now done.  Finish is far too glossy for my taste, but it will be given a spray coat or two of acrylic matt varnish to seal the new transfers, when they arrive. 

 

An interesting feature of Tondu's use of 44xx on the Porthcawl branch was that 2 were used daily, one passenger and one freight turn, and the locos were faced in opposite directions (the usual method in South Wales was smokebox leading up the valley, bunker down, to assist with keeping sufficient water level in the boiler over the fusible plug on the uphill gradients).  The loco diagrams included being turned at the depot over lunchtime, when the crew duties were relieved, in order to even out flange wear on the vicious curvature of the branch.  The 44xx were the only engines allowed to run at the breakneck pace of 15mph on these curves, all other locos being restricted to 5mph including 45xx and 4575s.

 

This means that, on the basis of a loco being 'pinched' at short notice to replace a 'broker', I can legitimately run bunker first up the valley with 4404 if I want.  I already work on the principle that the Cwmdimbath pickup is regarded as a low priority job at the shed, and thus most likely to have it's booked loco pinched and replaced by whatever is to hand.  It's booked loco is 6762, allocated brand new to TDU in 1946, because this loco does not have vacuum brakes, but of course any loco can work the pickup if I feel like it.  It was eventually transferred to work on Swansea Docks, a more suitable environment for it, and I have no idea why it was ever sent to Tondu in the first place; it would be interesting to know this, but esoteric information like this from 76 years ago is unlikely to surface now.  The steam brake only 67xx and 6750 panniers had coupling rods jointed in the horizontal plane, enabling them to work on the tight curvature of the dock lines they were intended for, so the Porthcawl branch's curves may have been a factor here.

 

Tondu has a track record (sorry) in having locos allocated for specific purposes, and the Porthcawl branch often seems to feature in this.  3100, the doyen of Collett's 1938 31xx large prairies, was allocated in 1946 when the daily 'residential' Porthcawl-Cardiff through commuter service was re-instated after being suspended during the war, this due to the ability of a loco with 5'3" wheels and a no.4 boiler to get away smartly and clear sections with the 5-coach train from the stops on the SWML without delaying the other main line traffic.  In pre-war years, various Bulldogs had been used on this train, hardly a typical allocation for a South Wales valleys shed.  4557 was allox as an understudy to the 44xx, but of course could not manage the 15mph on the curves, the only 45xx allox to the shed.  3100 ended it's days at Tondu in 1957, after a 'heavy contact' with the platform end buffer stop at Porthcawl which apparently bent it's frame; it was used as a yard pilot at Ogmore Jc for a few weeks before being sent to Swindon for assessment, being withdrawn on arrival.  This raised eyebrows at Tondu for an engine with only 19 years old, but of course it was a rebuild of a much older 3150 and the Collett 31xx were all withdrawn quite shortly after this.  4144 was sent as a replacement, not the first 5101 the shed had had as 4145 had been allox from new for a short period 1947-April 1948.

 

And that mostly off-topic screed concludes this week's Sunday afternoon ramblings!

 

 

[The Johnster]

More progress.

 

Had a look the chassis this evening, and have devised extensions to the centre driver crankpins to accommodate the connecting rod big end, which is, with the twin coupling rods, too thick to use the Bachmann crankpins with.  I have superglued extension pieces of wire insulation to a size to take the big end crankpin holes to the heads of the Baccy crankpins, and tomorrow or sometime in the week will attempt to fit the conrod/crosshead/piston assemblies and the separated cylinder/slidebar/motion bracket pieces.  The motor can then be refitted, and then the fun will begin as I try to get the best and smoothest running out of the chassis.

[The Johnster]

Either I'm winning, or the b*gger's lulling me into a false sense of security, but I've just finished a rather satisfying session with the chassis.  The lh motion, cylinders, slide bars, motion bracket is now set up and rolling smoothly.  Centre crankpin is now two standard Baccy crankpins superglued head to head forming an extended crankpin which will accommodate the big end of the conrod, which is held in place with a  0.5mm (ish) steak slice of insulation from a wire, 1mm dia. with 0.5 bore I think  This felt almost like proper modelling...

 

The cylinders are Bachmann but cut off from the main stretcher bar piece that holds the two of them together.  They line up in the correct postion with the front face parallel with the front of the frames and the top with the top of the frames, which should result in a neat tuck in to the corner where the running plate drops when the bodyshell goes back on (I mention this in case anyone is reading this as an instruction sheet to revamp the K's 44xx a la Johnster.  I needed a packing piece of 15thou plastic to position them so that the xhead will slide nicely along the slide bars and still leave room for the leading driver crankpin to pass behind the conrod, and some surgery was needed for the motion bracket.  As glueing it to the top of the Keyser frames would foul the bodyshell and prevent it from sitting properly, the stretcher bar portion again has to be dispensed with and the cut off bracket is superglued (carefully to avoid stickifying the crosshead) to the tabs on the slide bars. 

 

The appearance is quantum better than the K's cylinders and motion.  The K's cylinders seem to be mounted too low compared with prototype photos, and the locos sometimes looks a bit like miniature versions of one of those American 'Allegheny' banker Malletts with cyldiners the size of horizontal gasometers in the eBay and Hatton's photos.  The rather crude cast whitemetal K's motion with poorly rendered nick/silver coupling rods that have no fishbelly is nowhere near as good looking as the Bachmann stuff as well, though the K's slide bars are pretty good!  The whitemetal connecting rods are not up to the job, and bend easily, then break easily when you try to bend them back!

 

I'm hoping to be able to use some of the spring and brake detail from the Bachmann keeper plate as well; this loco has well spaced and small driving wheels so the chassis looks horribly bare and crude.  This may need a bit of surgery to clear the main drive gear cog, and cut'n'shutting to deal with the 'reversed 45xx axle spacing'.

 

Next job is to repeat the process on the rh side of the loco, followed by re-installing the motor and some running tests.  Fingers, legs, eyes, and anything else I can think of crossed...

Edited June 20, 2022 by The Johnster

[Halvarras]

Following your progress with interest and willing you on to a successful conclusion! Although my own main interest is in the railways of my native Cornwall in the diesel era I do have a collection of relevant steam locos, however these are set in 1960-62 so the 44xx locos used on the St Ives branch in the early decades of the 20th century are somewhat out of period (if they weren't I could also excuse an Adams Radial 4-4-2T as Wadebridge had a couple back then, and a B4 0-4-0T I think). The 'Great Western Railway Journal' special Cornish issue of late summer 1992 has a photo of 4409 (with numberplate central on the tank side) at St Ives in 1913, 4403 at St Erth on 9/8/23* and says 4408 also shared work on the branch at that time. The article states that, perhaps not surprisingly, they were also used on the Helston branch. Yet another K's 44xx appeared on Hattons pre-owned yesterday, seems to be an oddly regular occurrence while you're working on 4404! 

 

* Typing this date I realised that I passed this location 80 years to the day later behind D1015 on its first tour to Penzance, the first Western to the end of the line in over 26 years! But then nobody expected a Western to ever be seen there again......

[The Johnster]

Many thanks for your ‘willing on’, Halvarras; I’ll take all the help I can get, including on a spiritual plane…

 

They are not rare on Hatt’s site or the Bay of e, but it is rare to find one where the cylinders look right.  Haven’t fathomed this out, something to do with how they are mounted on the K’s perhaps.  The K’s cylinder castings are pretty good, but don’t seem to ‘hang right’ on the loco.  
 

I suspect they appear as complete or part-built on 2h sites because, while they were acceptable back in the day, current RTR shows them up badly; the cylinder problem, motor-filled cab, and lack of underframe detail, all count against them at the time when their original owners have passed on and they are being disposed of.  They have good points, though; the bodyshell is not bad and the weight of it enhances performance.  

 

It remains to be seen if my plan to work it up with Baccy bits is viable.  One cannot imagine improving a K’s kit with RTR bits back in the day!