Ballasting at Baseboard Joints

[ISW]

My layout is built out of a number of baseboards bolted together. So when it came to ballasting the track across the baseboard joins I came up with a plan to insert a pair of clear acrylic sheets into the baseboard join, roughly level with the tops of the sleepers. Thus:

 

I then proceeded to ballast across the join in the 'normal' way using PVA/water mix.

 

Once the glue had dried I prized the baseboards apart (which is why I used 2 sheets of acrylic, as I knew there was a good chance they would glue to the ballast) and then gently peeled the acrylic off the ballast. I then bolted the baseboard back together. Thus:

 

Visibly it looks quite good, but I'm concerned about the longevity of the edge of the glued ballast during any subsequent baseboard removal, as it does appear quite 'fragile' and if pieces break off it's going to look awful and be a pain to restore.

 

Does anyone have any experience of such things, as I'm sure it must occur on exhibition layouts, and have any hits / tips to 'protect' the edge of the ballast during baseboard removal?

 

Ian

[Pete the Elaner]

I moved away from PVA some years ago. I was taught to lay track on cork to make it less noisy. PVA completely destroys any benefit because it sets rock hard.

It also makes some ballast go green.

It also flakes away, giving you a little loose ballast whenever you move the layout (not a lot, but over time, it can make a difference, leaving unpainted ballast underneath.

PVA also turns some types of granite ballast slightly green.

 

I have seen some talk well of Johnson's Klear (or its modern equivalent) but I have not tried these.

I have tried Copydex & it has the disadvantage of wrapping itself around a drill if you subsequently want a hole & it is more expensive than PVA, but it has other useful properties:

It dries rubbery. It has some give, so is less likely to flake away.

It transmits slightly less noise to the board.

It dries very slightly brown (the same as brake dust).

Any excess can simply be sliced away.

But relevant to your query, it can be cut very neatly with a knife. I can separate my boards & not even see there is a board join there. I am not sure how this will hold out after several cycles of breaking apart & putting back together though.

 

I feel that many modellers use PVA because 1: It is what they have always used & 2: It is cheap.

No1 is a very poor reason to use a product.

No2 is more reasonable, but a couple of £5 bottles for a small/medium layout is not excessive if it gives a result you are happier with.

But if you decide to use a different product, experiment with it first with a spare piece of track on an offcut of wood.

[ISW]

Pete,

 

37 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

I was taught to lay track on cork to make it less noisy. PVA completely destroys any benefit because it sets rock hard.

It also makes some ballast go green.

I'm not using cork, because I couldn't see how that could reduce noise effectively. I'm using 3mm closed cell foam (underlay for timber floor coverings), so I'm hopeful that it'll retain it's noise reduction properties. I'm being careful to ensure the ballast doesn't 'bridge' the foam to the baseboard.

 

Not noticed any 'green' tinge in my dried ballast. Maybe that's product specific?

 

37 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

I have seen some talk well of Johnson's Klear (or its modern equivalent) but I have not tried these.

I have tried Copydex & it has the disadvantage of wrapping itself around a drill if you subsequently want a hole & it is more expensive than PVA, but it has other useful properties:

It dries rubbery. It has some give, so is less likely to flake away.

I do have a bottle of an equivalent to Johnsons' Klear, but I can't see it being much use to be honest. CopyDex is mentioned by a number of YouTubers, but with a large layout like mine it would be just too expensive. Pity that.

 

The 'flakiness' is something I have noticed. Hopefully (?) it will reduce / eliminate over time after a few 'hoovering' sessions.

 

37 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

I am not sure how this will hold out after several cycles of breaking apart & putting back together though.

Yeah, that's the question. I can see how the rubbery texture of CopyDex should be able to withstand occasional 'knocks' to the ballast edge, whereas PVA is likely to crack.

 

Has anyone ever tried 'painting' over PVAed ballast with CopyDex to give it a bit of extra resilience? Just doing that at the baseboard ends could be cost effective.

 

Ian

Edited May 4, 2022 by ISW
didn't proof read it!

[fulton]

Hi I did much the same as you, but using sellotape on both boards sitting slightly proud, ballasted with PVA diluted 1 part PVA 3 parts water with a drop of washing up liquid, when completely dry peeled off, I do this on all scenic work as well, so the colours etc. follow over, never had a problem with it crumbling away, obviously the ends are venerable to knocks when moving about. I still use PVA as it is readily available, relatively cheap, has many uses from signal arm spectacle glass to gluing baseboards together. Your acrylic sheet should give a sharper edge, good idea.

Edited May 4, 2022 by fulton
correction

[Michael Hodgson]

I think those who take layouts to exhibitions and achieve less obvious board joints just take along some spare ballast and flock to sprinkle loose over the joint when they erect the layout and accept that it will be lost when they take it down again.  And strategically placed hoardings, road vehicles or huts etc can be used to conceal or at least distract the eye from any joins like the breaks in the fences shown above.

[mike morley]

2 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

I have seen some talk well of Johnson's Klear (or its modern equivalent) but I have not tried these.

 

I used Klear on the run-round loop of my exhibition layout and dilute Copydex for the rest and while it was perfectly okay at the time after a few years it was noticeable how far more of the ballast secured by the Klear was flaking off than the rest.

[Phil Bullock]

26 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

I think those who take layouts to exhibitions and achieve less obvious board joints just take along some spare ballast and flock to sprinkle loose over the joint when they erect the layout and accept that it will be lost when they take it down again.  And strategically placed hoardings, road vehicles or huts etc can be used to conceal or at least distract the eye from any joins like the breaks in the fences shown above.

Another vote for sprinkled ballast to camouflage the join…. Preferably pre weathered

[Ian Smeeton]

How about PVA over the majority of the layout, and a couple of inches of copydex at each board join?

 

Regards

 

Ian

[Wheatley]

After removing the acrylic strips dribble a few drips of cheap cyano into the ballast either side of the joint. The pound shop stuff will do. You might have to give it a mist over with some matt varnish if it goes shiny. 

[doilum]

My post today on Wheldon on the industrial thread shows a thin aluminium sheet clamped between the base boards as I start to build the landscape. My plan for ballasting will be to give each side of this plate a blast of WD40 and then lay the first inch of ballast into neat PVA. Given a few days to harden properly, this should make for a rock solid join. The WD should ensure a neat break.

I like the previous poster's idea for cheap cyno!

[simonmcp]

You might find that using cling film between the baseboard joins gives a more uneven and therefore less noticeable gap. On a friend's layout we used a generous amount of PVA and the ballast was set solid. Some PVA glues will stay slightly flexible, Anita's Tacky being one, but again it is more expensive than most.

[Butler Henderson]

Rock solid PVA, if in doubt use Exterior wood glue. Made that mistake on a layout and no way when I came to scrap it could any track be salvaged, the whole lot rock solid.

[ISW]

1 hour ago, Wheatley said:

After removing the acrylic strips dribble a few drips of cheap cyano into the ballast either side of the joint. The pound shop stuff will do. You might have to give it a mist over with some matt varnish if it goes shiny. 

Yay, I like that idea. Cheap and retrofittable.

 

Ian

[ISW]

9 minutes ago, Butler Henderson said:

Rock solid PVA, if in doubt use Exterior wood glue. Made that mistake on a layout and no way when I came to scrap it could any track be salvaged, the whole lot rock solid.

I thought I read that you can remove the ballast if you re-wet the ballast (warm water?) and leave it for a while. Then the ballast can be removed from the track.

 

Ian

[ISW]

1 hour ago, Ian Smeeton said:

How about PVA over the majority of the layout, and a couple of inches of copydex at each board join?

 

Regards

 

Ian

Ian S,

 

That does appear to be an good option. However, I've already done some of my baseboard joints and so am in need of ideas /tricks that I can retrofit.

 

Ian

[ISW]

2 hours ago, fulton said:

Hi I did much the same as you, but using sellotape on both boards sitting slightly proud, ballasted with PVA diluted 1 part PVA 3 parts water with a drop of washing up liquid, when completely dry peeled off, I do this on all scenic work as well, so the colours etc. follow over, never had a problem with it crumbling away, obviously the ends are venerable to knocks when moving about. I still use PVA as it is readily available, relatively cheap, has many uses from signal arm spectacle glass to gluing baseboards together. Your acrylic sheet should give a sharper edge, good idea.

Yes, the acrylic does leave a nice crisp edge.

 

I'm using 50/50 water PVA, a slightly 'stronger' PVA solution, and it's 'construction grade' type (for which read "it's thicker") so, fingers crossed, it'll be a stronger (more resilient) ballast. Suppose I'll find out if (when?) I need to remove some for some later scenic element.

 

Ian

[57xx]

4 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

I have seen some talk well of Johnson's Klear (or its modern equivalent) but I have not tried these.

 

If you think PVA dries rock solid, then just wait till you try Klear! I saw loads of people on here spouting how great it was and that PVA was rubbish because it set "hard". Could never figure that one out.

[fulton]

It would be good to hear how people deal with baseboard joints, strategically placed road vehicles, fences etc. gets difficult on a prototype my joint below goes right through a warehouse, doing everything neatly I think helps.

[ISW]

28 minutes ago, fulton said:

gets difficult on a prototype my joint below goes right through a warehouse

 

My 'plan' is to ensure that all my buildings are 'removeable' so that, at joints, I can just ignore the joint from the perspective of the buildings. We'll see how that works out ...

 

The 'trick' will be to embed the building 'into' the surface, wherever possible, so that it looks natural.

 

Ian

[SamThomas]

6 hours ago, ISW said:

Not noticed any 'green' tinge in my dried ballast. Maybe that's product specific?

"Green tinge" only tends to be a feature if the ballast used is not actual stone or granite.

[ColinK]

I’ve only one visible baseboard joint and that is disguised by a wooden board foot crossing.

[dpgibbons]

My thought would be thin border strips of wood along the top of the baseboard edge, with just a thin layer of ballast/scenic material on top. 

[RobinofLoxley]

Im with Michael on this, no matter how much attention you give to this area there will always be making good to do after movements.

 

For me, fixing or not fixing ballast is one of the unresolved problem areas of the hobby. I use dilute pva for my first layout and wasnt at all satisfied with the results. You can do a test piece OK but after 25M of track there are always problem areas.

[RobinofLoxley]

17 hours ago, ISW said:

I'm not using cork, because I couldn't see how that could reduce noise effectively. I'm using 3mm closed cell foam (underlay for timber floor coverings), so I'm hopeful that it'll retain it's noise reduction properties. I'm being careful to ensure the ballast doesn't 'bridge' the foam to the baseboard.

Im totally with you on this. I used cork for the loft floor layout 30 years ago and wondered why. Last time I used adhesive backed 6mm neoprene foam, fantastic for noise suppression but had other issues - you could hear wheele clicking across the track joins and almost nothing else. This time I'm using 2mm foam like yours (big roll sourced from Globe Packaging) and I'm happy with it so far.

[Michael Hodgson]

Important when glueing ballast to double check before applying the glue that none of it is foul of running rails and take especial care at pointwork.  It can be a pain to remove after glue has set rock solid!