Coal traffic for the South West - Where did it originate from?

[Rivercider]

In the Exeter to Newton Abbot book Peter Kay mentions coal imports to Teignmouth Docks were at a good level in the 1890s and 1900s. The two main 'coal merchants--shipowners', James Finch and George Player, most of the coal shipped came from the north east. Player had a fleet of coal wagons, there is a photo of some dated around 1906, but traffic never recovered after WWI. From then until 1931 Teignmouth received more coal by rail, but the construction of Newton Abbot power station in 1931 meant coal imports by sea increased dramatically, including house coal  for local destinations.

 

cheers

Edited May 29, 2022 by Rivercider
tidying up.

[corneliuslundie]

Going back to before the First World War there were regular scheduled daily coal trains from Aberdare to Salisbury, I don't know what happened to the coal after that but I suspect that some went further west. Incidentally, some of them probably went via Rogerstone as once the 2-8-0s were introduced they could not go via Pontypool Road because of the weight limit over Crumlin Viaduct. The route was therefore via the LNWR, even though the GWR bought Halls Road tramroad and upgraded it to a railway.

Re local PO wagons, I recently looked into coal merchants in Montgomery (town) over time. Most had depots at Montgomery station but none had any wagons. So their coal must come in either colliery or coal factor wagons - and the latter are not to be discounted. I don't know if this is typical for smaller places.

Anyway, for the Club Montgomery Town layout (a Bishops Castle Railway might have been - authorised - which of course never happened) we are assuming that a couple of local coal merchants did in fact have wagons. Of course if we had been modelling a real station that would not be possible.

Jonathan

PS If you want more information than you could ever need about the South Wales coalfield then have a look at the Gazeteer produced by Tony Cooke - he of the map books.

[Compound2632]

12 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

Going back to before the First World War there were regular scheduled daily coal trains from Aberdare to Salisbury, I don't know what happened to the coal after that but I suspect that some went further west.

 

Was there re-marshalling en route? Did this working pick up traffic from the Midlands (via the MR) at Bristol, for instance? I can't imagine that Wiltshire and Dorset's coal needs could be met exclusively from the Eastern Valleys.

 

12 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

Re local PO wagons, I recently looked into coal merchants in Montgomery (town) over time. Most had depots at Montgomery station but none had any wagons. So their coal must come in either colliery or coal factor wagons - and the latter are not to be discounted. I don't know if this is typical for smaller places.

 

One should also not discount railway company wagons. This will depend on the date you are modelling but I think the earlier back you go the more likely you are to see railway company mineral wagons - probably peaking around 1900. At that date very roughly half the coal from collieries in the East Midlands and South Yorkshire served by the MR would be in MR wagons; the LNWR also had a substantial fleet of coal wagons - so coal from the Coventry and Cannock areas could well come in those.

[corneliuslundie]

Re the traffic from Aberdare, it was from collieries in the area and a bit further west, assembled at Aberdare and then run through as a complete load. Not from the Eastern Valleys, which would not have travelled on the Pontypool Road-Neath line. I was suggesting Rogerston as a port of call for water rather than remarshalling. Wagons might have been dropped off or picked up after the Severn Tunnel, of course, as the Service Timetable I have only covers the Pontypool-Neath line and associated branches, but I am pretty sure that they were mostly through trains, not shunting on route.

In fact the 1912 Service Timetable lists one Salisbury Coal, two Southampton Coal and two RR Salisbury Coal, though for the last two times given only as far as Sirhowy Junction. The first three are given timings as far as Salisbury and are stated to have been hauled by 2-8-0s so would have been via the LNWR.

I wonder if the Southampton services were in fact bunker coal, so can be ignored.

There were also about ten other through coal workings to other parts of the GWR in England. There was a lot of coal to shift.

And just a note on coal types, in South Wales there were quite a few collieries which worked seams at different depths each of which produced a different type of coal.

It might be interesting to look at old trade directories covering the area where your fictitious village is situated to see which companies were operating there, especially local coal merchants which often worked out of several stations. The local public library may be able to help, or possibly more likely a local museum (as I found in Montgomery).

And if your village has a brewery or similar rural industry requiring arsenic free coal then you will need some anthracite, so plenty of scope for the odd wagon from south west Wales. (There is a photo of an Amalgamated Anthracite wagon at one of the miniscule stations on the Bishops Castle Railway.)

Jonathan

[The Stationmaster]

GWR 28XX were permitted over Crumlin Viaduct but were not permitted to do so coupled to any other engine.  The rest of the route was RA red while the  viaduct was RA Blue (28XX were RA Blue of course).  Some RA Red engines were permitted to work over the viaduct subject to severe restrictions of speed (as was the viaduct itself in later years) and in fact on both the trips when  I travelled over it the engine working the train was a 56XX - one of Aberdare's nicely cleaned 56XX.

 

Extract from the 1949 Service Timetable, refer particularly to Note No.4 which clearly evidences that 28XX were permitted over the viaduct.  In fact I can't find any running line restrictions on RA Blue engines over the viaduct and of course, as seen here, some RA Red engines were permitted.  

 

Was there some sort of earlier restriction on the viaduct? I know from the Summer 1938 STT that changes to restrictions occurred in that year.  At that time RA Red engines were completely barred, and the 28XX were split into three groups  - 2846 and 2856 - 83 were only permitted to work over the viaduct unassisted.

The other two groups, both identified by their own capital letter, were 2800 - 2830, and then 2831 - 2845 & 2847 - 2855. But both of these groups had exactly the same permissions to be assisted over the viaduct, coupled, by any 0-6-0, 0-6-0T, 0-4-0T, 0-4-2T or 2-4-0T  not in the Red classification, or to those of the 0-6-2T in Yellow or Uncoloured classifications only.

Interestingly the grouping of engines of the same class in various number series by letter suggests it was part of a much older system - possibly something pre-dating the RA colour code?  I noted that the Aberdare 2-6-0s were also split into two groups and had the same assistance permissions as two the of the 28XX groups.  This suggests to me that these went back a long way probably pre-dating the application of the coloured RA discs which had started in 1919.  

 

Sorry to divert away from the original question

 

Edited May 30, 2022 by The Stationmaster

[corneliuslundie]

In the 1912 Service Timetable any coal trains marked as hauled by the 2-8-0s were routed via Sirhowy Junction and not to PPL, and most have a footnote H - though it is not explained anywhere. But there is the statement in the notes at the end: "Engines of the 2-8-0 class must not pass over the undermentioned places. Crumlin Viaduct; Maesycwmmer Junction Weighbridge., in No. 3 siding, up side of line; Aberdare Siding approaching Cattle Pens," This is below a list of trains between Aberdare and Southampton, Salisbury, Stoke Gifford, Reading and Severn Tunnel Junction all shown to be worked by the 2-8-0s. A similar note appears in the 1908 Service Timetable.

I wonder if the raising of the restriction was after a lot of work was done on the viaduct in 1928, after which there was only a single line.

Jonathan

PS Apologies to Brinkly for highjacking the thread.

[KingEdwardII]

23 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

Re the traffic from Aberdare

The coal from Aberdare would have been steam coal - certainly used as loco coal by the GWR but also by other companies.

 

These "inland" coal trains required much beefier locos than the shorter range "downhill" journeys to the South Wales docks for export by sea. Hence the use of the 28xx 2-8-0s and later the 2-8-2Ts. The allocation of these larger types to the Aberdare shed is notable and unlike many of the other valley sheds.

 

Yours,  Mike.

[wagonman]

Getting back to the original topic, most of the coal from South Wales and the FoD bound for the south west would have travelled by sea, at least in the period in which I'm interested. The Torquay gas works traffic was by no means an anomaly. Coal from inland pits would have gone by rail all the way, obviously. There's a well known photo of Bodmin station in 1925 with a cut of English China Clay coal wagons, plus one each from Renwick Wilton and New Rock. While it's obvious where the New Rock wagon's load came from, the same cannot be said for the other wagons!

 

Renwick Wilton & Co (Dobson was added c1930) were a very large business, with a wagon fleet to match.

 

Back in Somerset, Sully had its own wagons working in the FoD and from Bridgwater, the traffic between Lydney and Bridgwater being by sea in their own ships. I'm surprised they still found the multiple handling of the cargo economic – but I guess rail rates were high and wage costs low...

 

Henry Floyd, a Plymouth based coal 'factor' (at least in his own estimation) was based at North Quay where coal was brought in by sea for onwards distribution by rail. I'm working my way through Devon and Cornwall coal wagons but have only got to 'F' so far!

 

The Aberdare/Rogerstone trains usually worked through to Southampton though I seem to remember there was a note in the marshalling instructions about dropping off traffic at Salisbury. Unfortunately I can't find my notes. There was also provision for changing guards at Trowbridge. Before the advent of the 2800 on these trains, they were hauled by Buffalo tanks and later by the Aberdare (2601) class – that's where the name came from of course.

[Gwiwer]

Coal into west Cornwall came by rail and by coastal shipping.  Before the railways ports such as Hayle were very important lying more or less across the Bristol Channel from the Welsh coal-exporting ports.  Copper and tin mining has already been touched upon above.  Pumps to keep water out, raise ore and (in some cases) both lower and raise the miners themselves required coal.  Harveys of Hayle was among the world leaders in such things and cast the largest single-cylinder steam-powered pump ever built.  The original Hayle Railway, which predated the coming of the GWR by quite some years, had a branch to North Quay for the express purpose of shifting coal from wharf-side to town where it was either used locally by the copper smelters and foundries or was sold on to the mines.  Domestic coal would have arrived by sea too before the railway was connected to what became the Cornish main line.  Copper ore was also shipped back to South Wales making the operation quite profitable with loads both ways.  

 

Portreath imported coal and transported it via the series of mineral tramways to inland towns and mines.  Those tramways were also used to export the produce from the mines meaning they could carry payloads in both directions.  

 

Skip forward to the 1930s as asked by OP and the Hayle Wharf branch was still busy with coastal shipping providing inbound coal although much by then was for domestic consumption.  Hayle's " 'lectric works " (the coal-fired power station) was as hungry as ever and sat right on the quayside  where it had been built to take advantage of the shipping.  Many mines were closed and the great Hayle foundries of Harvey & Co and the Cornish Copper Company were also gone although Harveys still traded in other areas.  Shipping was however struggling against direct rail transport despite retaining some advantages in terms of short-haul.  Hayle harbour always had a problem with silting as it had been an artificially-deepened natural estuary.  As ships paid ever-fewer visits so the Hayle Harbour Company found it financially impossible to maintain the channels and the last coal boat was recorded in the 1970s iirc.  

 

An image c/o "Old Cornwall In Pictures" with no attribution.  The Wharf rail lines ran immediately to the left of the cranes.  

 

 

 

 

 

[wagonman]

What I hadn't appreciated until I read Dr Brookfield's paper https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/621229.pdf?refreqid=fastly-default%3Afdb754052034ce60203c144ee63993a8&ab_segments=&origin=  was the extent of market penetration by pits in the NE of England. Because their production costs were significantly lower than the S Wales pits, and shipping was cheap, they competed all along the south coast and into the mouth of the Bristol Channel. Welsh coal had the edge where special grades – anthracite or bituminous steam coal – were required, but otherwise only monopolised trade in the upper reaches of the Severn Estuary, alongside coal from the Forest of Dean.

[KeithMacdonald]

I wish I could find the many articles my late father-in-law wrote on shipping between Devon (+Cornwall) and South Wales. As a time-served Master Mariner and latterly a Harbour Master, he had some great stories.

 

One concerns the habit that metal miners in Devon (+Cornwall) had of shipping much of their metal ore to South Wales for refining. Some might say : Why?

 

The explanation was that it took roughly ten tons of good Welsh coal to refine one ton of metal ore. So it was far more economic to move the ore to the coal than the other way round. That did mean, however, that the ships that took the ore to Wales then needed a return load, and (guess what) coal was the usual choice.

 

So in many Devon ports, ore out and coal in was a well-established routine.

[wagonman]

12 hours ago, KeithMacdonald said:

I wish I could find the many articles my late father-in-law wrote on shipping between Devon (+Cornwall) and South Wales. As a time-served Master Mariner and latterly a Harbour Master, he had some great stories.

 

One concerns the habit that metal miners in Devon (+Cornwall) had of shipping much of their metal ore to South Wales for refining. Some might say : Why?

 

The explanation was that it took roughly ten tons of good Welsh coal to refine one ton of metal ore. So it was far more economic to move the ore to the coal than the other way round. That did mean, however, that the ships that took the ore to Wales then needed a return load, and (guess what) coal was the usual choice.

 

So in many Devon ports, ore out and coal in was a well-established routine.

 

It would be very interesting to read your father-in-law's articles. The Swansea area had long been renowned for the smelting of non-ferrous metals so it was obvious that ores would be sent there for processing. That applied also to the natively produced lead ores.

 

Brookfield pointed out that the economics of coastwise shipping often meant it was more economic for a ship to return in ballast rather than wait several days for a return cargo. This certainly applied to the east coast colliers supplying north Norfolk ports. The area was a major exporter of grain etc but rarely was a returning collier used for such trade – contamination of the cargo may also have been a factor. Overseas trade was slightly different as ships that took grain cargoes to eg Rotterdam often returned with cargoes of bricks and pantiles.

 

[KingEdwardII]

On 01/06/2022 at 13:41, wagonman said:

extent of market penetration by pits in the NE of England

Indeed, but it is specific to coal for certain types of use.

 

South Wales specialised in Steam Coal and Anthracite, and to a lesser extent in coking coal. For things like domestic coal, the north-east had significant advantages, particularly cost, since the Welsh pits had to deal with smaller seams and tougher geological conditions. South Wales did produce domestic coal, but it was typically only supplied to South Wales itself, since domestic coal from the north east and other parts of the UK was typically lower cost.

 

Yours, Mike.

[Nick Holliday]

16 hours ago, KeithMacdonald said:

I wish I could find the many articles my late father-in-law wrote on shipping between Devon (+Cornwall) and South Wales. As a time-served Master Mariner and latterly a Harbour Master, he had some great stories.

 

One concerns the habit that metal miners in Devon (+Cornwall) had of shipping much of their metal ore to South Wales for refining. Some might say : Why?

 

The explanation was that it took roughly ten tons of good Welsh coal to refine one ton of metal ore. So it was far more economic to move the ore to the coal than the other way round. That did mean, however, that the ships that took the ore to Wales then needed a return load, and (guess what) coal was the usual choice.

 

So in many Devon ports, ore out and coal in was a well-established routine.

They may not be your father-in-law's articles, but there are several stirring adventure stories in the always entertaining Archive magazine from Lightmoor Press.

In Issue No. 1 there is a wonderful piece by Clive Carter on Coals to Portreath, with plenty of graphic descriptions of the hazards when working to this harbour, followed up in Issue 4 by a fascinating panorama of the harbour showing how the coal was handled and stacked, from the Paddy Bradley collection.

Issue 7 has an article by Neil Parkhouse on Combe Martin, detailing the work of the ships that visited, as well as the industrial nature of the town. In Issue 8 Clive Carter returns, with Steel Ships and Iron Men, investigating the story of the colliers operated by Harveys of Hayle, Cornwall, followed up in Issue 11 by a photo of one of their ships, S.S. Hayle aground on Hayle Bar, emphasising the dangers involved in the coastal trade.  Issues 12 & 16 have items covering similar ground, but rather more genteelly, outlining the role of the Severn Trow, working in the opposite direction, up the rather quieter and safer River Severn past Avonmouth.

There may be more articles within their pages - there are searchable contents listings for both Archive and the sadly missed Railway Archive magazines on the Lightmoor Press website.

 

[Morello Cherry]

If you have access then the following might be of interest.

 

The Role of Coastal Shipping in UK Transport: An Estimate of Comparative Traffic Movements in 1910

John Armstrong

First Published Sep 1, 1987; pp. 164–178

 

https://journals.sagepub.com/toc/jthc/8/2

 

There are some interesting tables in it comparing coastal and rail traffic and also where coal was coming from in 1910.

 

It is also worth noting that not all the coal was down the East Coast and there were some interesting journeys to get the coal to the ports - Simmons in the Oxford Companion highlights that some Erewash Valley coal was shipped from Morecambe. The GSWR carried in 1867 carried 900,000 tons to west coast ports. 

 

At the same time, he also highlights that the Highland and GNoSR moved coal that was landed at Scottish east coast ports. (The SER coal traffic from Whitstable is also mentioned).

 

The references included by Simmons make for some interesting further reading.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[wagonman]

1 hour ago, KingEdwardII said:

Indeed, but it is specific to coal for certain types of use.

 

South Wales specialised in Steam Coal and Anthracite, and to a lesser extent in coking coal. For things like domestic coal, the north-east had significant advantages, particularly cost, since the Welsh pits had to deal with smaller seams and tougher geological conditions. South Wales did produce domestic coal, but it was typically only supplied to South Wales itself, since domestic coal from the north east and other parts of the UK was typically lower cost.

 

Yours, Mike.

 

I did actually make that point: " Welsh coal had the edge where special grades – anthracite or bituminous steam coal – were required" but I suppose there's no harm in pressing the point home.

 

 

Richard

[wagonman]

55 minutes ago, Morello Cherry said:

If you have access then the following might be of interest.

 

The Role of Coastal Shipping in UK Transport: An Estimate of Comparative Traffic Movements in 1910

John Armstrong

First Published Sep 1, 1987; pp. 164–178

 

https://journals.sagepub.com/toc/jthc/8/2

 

There are some interesting tables in it comparing coastal and rail traffic and also where coal was coming from in 1910.

 

It is also worth noting that not all the coal was down the East Coast and there were some interesting journeys to get the coal to the ports - Simmons in the Oxford Companion highlights that some Erewash Valley coal was shipped from Morecambe. The GSWR carried in 1867 carried 900,000 tons to west coast ports. 

 

At the same time, he also highlights that the Highland and GNoSR moved coal that was landed at Scottish east coast ports. (The SER coal traffic from Whitstable is also mentioned).

 

The references included by Simmons make for some interesting further reading.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the link – a useful article. Not cheap but I can at least set it against my next royalty payment!

 

 

Richard

 

[Morello Cherry]

For what it is worth. Colin G. Maggs 'Branchlines of Somerset' (Bath: Alan Sutton, 1993) p.106 has a photo from 1936 of an SR wagon being loaded with coal from a coaster at Watchet Harbour (in shot are GWR, SR wagons  and an LNWR wagon) and on p.111 a 1923 photo of Minehead Station and goods yard which includes LNWR, Midland wagons, a Cheshire Lines van and a Cannock and Rugeley colliery wagon.

[Compound2632]

6 minutes ago, Morello Cherry said:

For what it is worth. Colin G. Maggs 'Branchlines of Somerset' (Bath: Alan Sutton, 1993) p.106 has a photo from 1936 of an SR wagon being loaded with coal from a coaster at Watchet Harbour (in shot are GWR, SR wagons  and an LNWR wagon) and on p.111 a 1923 photo of Minehead Station and goods yard which includes LNWR, Midland wagons, a Cheshire Lines van and a Cannock and Rugeley colliery wagon.

 

There's nothing to be deduced from the railway company wagons, as the common user (pooling) arrangements introduced during the Great War meant that any company's ordinary opens and vans would turn up practically anywhere.

 

The Cannock & Rugeley wagon is interesting, though!

[Morello Cherry]

For sure but it seemed sensible to flag up all the identified wagons in case someone wants to model a coastal Somerset goods yard c1923 or c1936. What I find more interesting is that in a space of less than 9 miles (and 13 years) we have coal arriving by rail and coal arriving by coaster.

 

The book also has a lot of stuff about the Somerset coalfield lines: Pensford, Kilmersdon etc. Worth noting that the amount of coal dispatched from Pensford, Radstock etc on the GWR branch halved from their 1913 levels by 1933. (The book also has a photo of an ex-ROD 2-8-0 on a train of empties at Clutton in 1953 - not somewhere I would have immediately associated with the class).

Edited June 24, 2023 by Morello Cherry

[Rivercider]

11 hours ago, Morello Cherry said:

For what it is worth. Colin G. Maggs 'Branchlines of Somerset' (Bath: Alan Sutton, 1993) p.106 has a photo from 1936 of an SR wagon being loaded with coal from a coaster at Watchet Harbour (in shot are GWR, SR wagons  and an LNWR wagon) and on p.111 a 1923 photo of Minehead Station and goods yard which includes LNWR, Midland wagons, a Cheshire Lines van and a Cannock and Rugeley colliery wagon.

In another of the books by Colin Maggs 'The Minehead Branch and the West Somerset Railway' by Oakwood Press he also mentions coal imports through Watchet. Coal arrived by sea and was distributed by rail, the peak tonnage being an annual average of 17,000 tons in 1934-36, then declining sharply,

 

cheers

[Compound2632]

To my mind, the presence of the Cannock & Rugeley wagon implies a customer with a specific requirement for coal of a type produced by the Cannock Chase coalfield. So, from the point of view of someone modelling Watchet in the 30s, a Cannock & Rugeley wagon will be a must, whereas the selection of railway company opens ans vans is more-or-less abitrary.

 

The presence of a wagon still in LNWR livery 13 years after grouping is interesting but by no means exceptional; a number of wagons of that company seem to have escaped repainting in grouping company livery for longer than those of any other pre-grouping company!

[bécasse]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

To my mind, the presence of the Cannock & Rugeley wagon implies a customer with a specific requirement for coal of a type produced by the Cannock Chase coalfield. So, from the point of view of someone modelling Watchet in the 30s, a Cannock & Rugeley wagon will be a must, whereas the selection of railway company opens ans vans is more-or-less abitrary.

While a specific type of coal requirement may well have been the reason for the presence of the C&R wagon, another possible reason (and one that may be more likely) is that it was delivering entitlement coal to a colliery shareholder. Coal mine shares were quite common wedding presents among the gentry in pre-Great War days, there was always the off-chance that they might increase significantly in value subsequently but their main benefit was that they entitled the shareholder to an annual allowance of coal, either free or at a significantly reduced price, which would, of course, have been delivered in colliery's own wagon. These deliveries of entitlement coal were probably the most significant cause of "singular" movements of colliery coal wagons right up until WWII pooling was implemented, and the actual deliveries (but now in a pool wagon) would have continued until the 1947 nationalisation of the coal industry, assuming, of course, that the colliery company concerned remained active.

[johnofwessex]

I recently read 

 

https://lightmoor.co.uk/books/the-portishead-coal-boats-a-history-of-osborn-and-wallis-ltd-bristol/B9136

 

What I found fascinating was that it was it seems cheaper to take the coal to Newport or Cardiff, load it into a boat and take it actross the Bristol Channel to Portishead rather than send it direct by rail

[D7666]

AIUI some of the coal on the Aberdare to Salisbury and Southampton coal trains were for Salisbury and Southampton power station respectively.

 

Salisbury was a tiny power station it barely reached 3 MW at its highest installed capacity. so the coal take was not significant. I wrote a paper on Salisbury PS that was privately published; Salisbury library have a copy + the research material I accumulated.

 

Southampton PS was up to 88 MW at its maximum, although it got to 88 in the early 1950s but by then the rail link had been disused early after WW2 and coal came by road.  It was an interesting rail served PS in that it was one of those with its own electric railway and one of the 3 locos was built by Southampton corporation tramways.  I can't find a inter war year MW rating for the PS buts lets say it was half at 40-50 MW that takes quite a bit of coal.

 

Ports ships needs notwithstanding - but that is where a good portion of the Aberdare Southampton coal went - to the PS.

 

 

 

In back reading this thread, some of the postings are a little confusing reading now. At least three different posts refers to imports but then go on to talk about coastal colliers. Imports - to me at least - means from overseas not domestic. Coastal colliers - by definition were domestic.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 25, 2023 by D7666