Locos wheels getting dirty instantly.

[125_driver]

The above problem began very suddenly a few weeks ago, to summarise, most of the locos on my layout (strangely not all) after a while of running, very suddenly start running very poorly, and specifically stop listening to controller commands (ie Horn or slow down / speed up). Once this has occurred,  the problem afflicts said loco like a disease and I notice that after cleaning the wheels which have got very oily, the oil returns almost instantly and dirties up the wheels again and the track straight away. The afflicted locos all have run for over 20 minutes generally before this issue begins, and once affected, as I said I can't seem to cure it. Its a DCC layout if that's relevant. I'm not sure of the dirty wheels are a symptom of what's going wrong or the cause, but to reiterate when affected I am cleaning the wheels very thoroughly,  only for the dirt to come back straight away. Can anyone help? 

[dasatcopthorne]

You haven't said anything about cleaning the track!

I would start with a very good track please. First with IPA or lighter fluid and then a good track rubber. (Not Peco).

 

Then clean one loco. A lot of RTR locos have far too much grease in them. Get rid of a lot of this but not all. As the loco warms up, the grease softens and runs down to the wheel surfaces. You might even be able to see it on the underside of the chassis.

 

If this loco lasts, then do the rest.

 

Dave.

[125_driver]

16 minutes ago, dasatcopthorne said:

You haven't said anything about cleaning the track!

I would start with a very good track please. First with IPA or lighter fluid and then a good track rubber. (Not Peco).

 

Then clean one loco. A lot of RTR locos have far too much grease in them. Get rid of a lot of this but not all. As the loco warms up, the grease softens and runs down to the wheel surfaces. You might even be able to see it on the underside of the chassis.

 

If this loco lasts, then do the rest.

 

Dave.

Sorry I should have also pointed out I have given the track the biggest clean its ever had and it was pretty much good as new afterwards. I hear what you are saying on excess grease on locos but they have all run absolutely fine for 3 years and suddenly are spewing out this oil/grease. I feel like there must be something going on that is prompting this to suddenly start happening after 3 years of excellent running performance.

[melmerby]

Well, according to some IPA is the devil's sputum and actually causes the build up of mineral deposits on the rail and wheels:

https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/mrhpub.com/2019-05-may/online/index.html?page=9

 

 

However I have used it for years and haven't had a problem, I do however buff the wheels and track after using IPA to remove any trace left.

[125_driver]

Also, maybe a long shot but could this be related to voltage (sudden drop or rises of voltage)???

[The Johnster]

Or possibly something airborne and greasy, which will mean everything needs deep cleaning😡. 
 

On the subject of the Devil’s sputum, I have long held the view that traction tyres are his expectorant.  Can you connect the start of your problem to replacing one or to one breaking down and needing a replacement?

[125_driver]

7 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

Or possibly something airborne and greasy, which will mean everything needs deep cleaning😡. 
 

On the subject of the Devil’s sputum, I have long held the view that traction tyres are his expectorant.  Can you connect the start of your problem to replacing one or to one breaking down and needing a replacement?

The stock most affected doesn't have traction tyres (Hornby HST TTS power cars). 

I have done a pretty thorough deep clean of the locos affected , and yet the problem quickly returns (pretty much instantly). From clean wheels to filthy in the space of a minute and visible oil on the track that had just been deep cleaned. 

 

Also, I have noticed that when the problem starts, the amps drawn according to the controller start to fluctuate wildly and go quite high, higher than normal , is this likely to be contributing or is this a symptom of the problem I wonder?

[The Johnster]

I’d say that amperage fluctuations are a symptom, as current is being prevented from getting to the motor because of contaminated railheads, wheels, and pickups.  If the contaminant is capable of conducting electricity, it may be trying to create short circuits as well.  
 

Possible airborne contaminants mght be aerosol spray fly killer, polish, even air freshener.  

[Right Away]

As you’ve cleaned the track, wheels  and pick ups, it’s beginning to sound like a body-off job to locate the source of the lubricant and thoroughly clean the drive train. It’s also surprising how much oil can reside on the back of the keeper plate, so it’s a good idea to inspect this and the bearings. 

I’ve never had a problem with IPA; used it for years and the only thing I have noticed is a slight discolouration on unpainted plastic if it gets on brake blocks etc after cleaning wheels. Nowadays, the blocks on all my stock now have a modicum of weathering and so that problem no longer arises.

[125_driver]

26 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

I’d say that amperage fluctuations are a symptom, as current is being prevented from getting to the motor because of contaminated railheads, wheels, and pickups.  If the contaminant is capable of conducting electricity, it may be trying to create short circuits as well.  
 

Possible airborne contaminants mght be aerosol spray fly killer, polish, even air freshener.  

The layout is in the loft and there isn't really anything I use up here along these lines. 

[125_driver]

9 minutes ago, Right Away said:

As you’ve cleaned the track, wheels  and pick ups, it’s beginning to sound like a body-off job to locate the source of the lubricant and thoroughly clean the drive train. It’s also surprising how much oil can reside on the back of the keeper plate, so it’s a good idea to inspect this and the bearings. 

I’ve never had a problem with IPA; used it for years and the only thing I have noticed is a slight discolouration on unpainted plastic if it gets on brake blocks etc after cleaning wheels. Nowadays, the blocks on all my stock now have a modicum of weathering and so that problem no longer arises.

I've done this with one loco, but what is strange is how they are all succumbing to this problem all of a sudden.  On the loco that I did go into the inner workings etc if anything I found it had less lubrication than I expected. Could lack of lubrication be a cause for this problem???!!!

[RobinofLoxley]

1 hour ago, 125_driver said:

The layout is in the loft and there isn't really anything I use up here along these lines. 

Is the loft temperature controlled in any way or is it ambient. Any oily material will flow more as the temperature rises. The electric motors themselves take time to warm up including the transmissions. I can't think this is coming from anywhere except the rolling stock.

[Andy Hayter]

You have cleaned the loco wheels, but have you cleaned the wheels of all of your stock as well?

[125_driver]

7 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

You have cleaned the loco wheels, but have you cleaned the wheels of all of your stock as well?

That's a fair point. Better had try that as well!

[125_driver]

14 minutes ago, RobinofLoxley said:

Is the loft temperature controlled in any way or is it ambient. Any oily material will flow more as the temperature rises. The electric motors themselves take time to warm up including the transmissions. I can't think this is coming from anywhere except the rolling stock.

It does get warmer in the summer though frankly compared to the peak of past few summers where it gets much hotter, at the moment this year its never really got hot just slightly warmer than downstairs to be honest. 

[Hal Nail]

11 hours ago, 125_driver said:

That's a fair point. Better had try that as well!

The very first reply suggested running things one at a time, after cleaning the track, to narrow down where the problem may be. Might save you a lot of time doing every single thing only for it to get dirty again if you havent got to the source.

[RexAshton]

You say you have cleaned the wheels and pickups which is fine but have you also cleaned all your rolling stock wheels. They get as dirty as the loco wheels and will deposit it back onto the trach as soon as you run them.

[125_driver]

2 hours ago, RexAshton said:

You say you have cleaned the wheels and pickups which is fine but have you also cleaned all your rolling stock wheels. They get as dirty as the loco wheels and will deposit it back onto the trach as soon as you run them.

Yes another poster suggested this and I endeavoured to thoroughly clean the 8 coach mk3 rake I am currently using. Unfortunately it has had no impact on the problem. The fact some locos are working fine and yet others are impacted by this suggests to me the problem must lie with individual locos. 

Its almost like the affected locos develop a sort of inertia where say the horn is sounded and it either doesn't sound or sounds a few seconds later. Similarly , power can be reduced but the loco will take no notice for say 10nseconds before finally reducing its speed. The locos also need a slightly higher power setting just to keep rolling. What confuses me most is that generally stuttering is associated with dirty wheels track pickups etc yet the stock doesn't stutter at all as you might expect with stock that isn't clean. I've also tried resetting the decoder or even changing it and this has no impact. I'm truly stumped at the moment!

[Mike Buckner]

23 hours ago, 125_driver said:

after a while of running, very suddenly start running very poorly

 

Is something getting too hot?  The power supply, the central DCC unit, the decoder, too many things running, a low-level (low amps) short-circuit somewhere...

 

 

Edited June 3, 2022 by Mike Buckner

[Dagworth]

What’s your DCC system? I’ve seen behaviours similar to this when the system gets to its capacity of how many locos it can control at once. 
 

Andi

[125_driver]

15 minutes ago, Dagworth said:

What’s your DCC system? I’ve seen behaviours similar to this when the system gets to its capacity of how many locos it can control at once. 
 

Andi

I can't imagine that's the issue as It is only controlling the power car and dummy power car. I don't generally run multiple trains all at once. I am using  a CT elektronik system. 

[125_driver]

19 minutes ago, Mike Buckner said:

 

Is something getting too hot?  The power supply, the central DCC unit, the decoder, too many things running, a low-level (low amps) short-circuit somewhere...

 

 

Very plausible as the problem seems to surface after a period of running. The fact some locos are unaffected would surely suggest it is the individual affected locos that are getting too hot. 

 

Regarding the bit about low level short circuit, do you mind giving me an example of what could be causing it. I've checked anything obvious but there are things that more experienced modellers than me may have come across that I wouldn't even think of.

[Dagworth]

1 hour ago, 125_driver said:

I can't imagine that's the issue as It is only controlling the power car and dummy power car. I don't generally run multiple trains all at once. I am using  a CT elektronik system. 

How many locos are in the system’s memory though? I’ve seen it with my Lenz system that once the roster of 120odd is full it is trying to send out so much data (even though that data is mostly telling locos to sit still) that the refresh rate is slower than the decoder time out. Delete a few locos from memory and all behaves as normal. 
 

Andi

[125_driver]

30 minutes ago, Dagworth said:

How many locos are in the system’s memory though? I’ve seen it with my Lenz system that once the roster of 120odd is full it is trying to send out so much data (even though that data is mostly telling locos to sit still) that the refresh rate is slower than the decoder time out. Delete a few locos from memory and all behaves as normal. 
 

Andi

Interesting I hadn't ever even thought that would cause an issue so something else to try. Thanks.

[dasatcopthorne]

Come on guys!

 

The number of locos in a layout's roster causing dirty track???

 

Mmmmmmmmm!

 

Dave