LNER Sentinel & Clayton Railcars - livery & other questions

[Jon4470]

I figure that this may be the best topic to post this in:

 

 

I bought this while at the York show yesterday. Available from NERA at £3.50. 
 

It is a reproduction of a 1934 report detailing the pros and cons of the railcars. Included are examples of the types of service that they were used on, availability statistics and estimates of costs. There is also a follow up (short) report recommending the scrapping of the Clayton designs.

 

Although it is quite a “dry” read; for me, it was very interesting to see the contemporary views about these railcars and their uses and benefits. The diesel railcars were brand new and also feature briefly….. with the benefit of hindsight I think it’s a real shame that they weren’t developed more.

 

One thing I did note was that, in the cost estimates,  the lifespan of the railcars was assumed to be 15 years. In reality I think that the actual scrapping dates were approximately at 15 years of age…..if no WW2 would they have been replaced? In contrast, the life expectancy of standard stock was quoted as 40 years for cost purposes.

 

As a piece of social history, I also find it interesting how business reports were produced at the time. Without the benefits of spreadsheets and word processors, the report has to be succinct. I think that, if produced now, the authors would be sent back to get much more data to back up their recommendations…..although I’m not sure that the modern approach always produces more accurate reasoning🙂

[Chas Levin]

45 minutes ago, Jon4470 said:

I figure that this may be the best topic to post this in:

 

 

I bought this while at the York show yesterday. Available from NERA at £3.50. 
 

It is a reproduction of a 1934 report detailing the pros and cons of the railcars. Included are examples of the types of service that they were used on, availability statistics and estimates of costs. There is also a follow up (short) report recommending the scrapping of the Clayton designs.

 

Although it is quite a “dry” read; for me, it was very interesting to see the contemporary views about these railcars and their uses and benefits. The diesel railcars were brand new and also feature briefly….. with the benefit of hindsight I think it’s a real shame that they weren’t developed more.

 

One thing I did note was that, in the cost estimates,  the lifespan of the railcars was assumed to be 15 years. In reality I think that the actual scrapping dates were approximately at 15 years of age…..if no WW2 would they have been replaced? In contrast, the life expectancy of standard stock was quoted as 40 years for cost purposes.

 

As a piece of social history, I also find it interesting how business reports were produced at the time. Without the benefits of spreadsheets and word processors, the report has to be succinct. I think that, if produced now, the authors would be sent back to get much more data to back up their recommendations…..although I’m not sure that the modern approach always produces more accurate reasoning🙂

 

Very good place to post it in Jon IMHO! I was at the york show on Saturday - pity we weren't there on the same day! I saw the NERA stand and scanned the titles out on the table but I didn't see this one (or perhaps they didn't have it out that day) as I'd have picked it up too!

I'd share your interest in the wider background of these vehicles. I often 'read around' something I'm building and have read some other books on the Sentinel company too.

I take it though that there's nothing that might be of direct use for modelling purposes?

 

Very interesting point about the lack of back-up data. Is there no chance that they had obtained the data, but just hadn't included it in the report? Why has business report preparation changed so much - why is there pressure to obtain (or present) so much more data than before, do you think?

[Jon4470]

10 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

 

Very good place to post it in Jon IMHO! I was at the york show on Saturday - pity we weren't there on the same day! I saw the NERA stand and scanned the titles out on the table but I didn't see this one (or perhaps they didn't have it out that day) as I'd have picked it up too!

I'd share your interest in the wider background of these vehicles. I often 'read around' something I'm building and have read some other books on the Sentinel company too.

I take it though that there's nothing that might be of direct use for modelling purposes?

 

Very interesting point about the lack of back-up data. Is there no chance that they had obtained the data, but just hadn't included it in the report? Why has business report preparation changed so much - why is there pressure to obtain (or present) so much more data than before, do you think?

 

Hi Chas

 

Yes, shame to miss you at York….I thoroughly enjoyed the show.

 

There’s nothing relevant to modelling the railcars themselves.

 

However, there is information about how, and why, they were used. This could be relevant to operation of layouts. For instance, on some lines they were used to create more intensive services, on others it was purely about cost cutting, some were used for Sunday services etc. Also there is some information about the use of steam trains for the heavier loadings e.g. on market days, Saturdays etc.

 

As for the amount data in reports……..this feels like we’d need two comfy armchairs, potentially a drink or two and proceed to set the world to rights🙂

 

Without getting too deep into the subject, I think one thing that definitely affects this is technology. Last week I was able to get Chat GPT to produce a simple summary in 30 seconds. This would have taken me about 1 hour to produce using Word. Before computers I would have had to write it out/ dictate it, have it typed up, proof read it, correct it etc…..even as a rush job it would have been a full day, maybe two. Or to put it the other way round, if I allocate two days to the task, just think how much “stuff” I could get out of Chat GPT…..replace “stuff” with you word of choice😃

 

[Chas Levin]

2 hours ago, Jon4470 said:

 

Hi Chas

 

Yes, shame to miss you at York….I thoroughly enjoyed the show.

 

There’s nothing relevant to modelling the railcars themselves.

 

However, there is information about how, and why, they were used. This could be relevant to operation of layouts. For instance, on some lines they were used to create more intensive services, on others it was purely about cost cutting, some were used for Sunday services etc. Also there is some information about the use of steam trains for the heavier loadings e.g. on market days, Saturdays etc.

 

As for the amount data in reports……..this feels like we’d need two comfy armchairs, potentially a drink or two and proceed to set the world to rights🙂

 

Without getting too deep into the subject, I think one thing that definitely affects this is technology. Last week I was able to get Chat GPT to produce a simple summary in 30 seconds. This would have taken me about 1 hour to produce using Word. Before computers I would have had to write it out/ dictate it, have it typed up, proof read it, correct it etc…..even as a rush job it would have been a full day, maybe two. Or to put it the other way round, if I allocate two days to the task, just think how much “stuff” I could get out of Chat GPT…..replace “stuff” with you word of choice😃

 

 

Very interesting Jon: you're the first person 've spoken to who has used Chat GPT for something genuinely useful and who has spoken positively about it!

[2750Papyrus]

Just had a quick look at the NERA website, but couldn't spot it.

[Chas Levin]

Is it perhaps an older title they no longer stock?

[RichardT]

2 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

Is it perhaps an older title they no longer stock?

It’s a brand new item, announced to members in the last Newsletter, so possibly hasn’t made it into the online shop yet.
 

(Planning to pick up a copy at the NERA AGM on the 13th!)

 

Richard

Edited April 3 by RichardT

[MarkC]

21 hours ago, Jon4470 said:

I figure that this may be the best topic to post this in:

 

 

I bought this while at the York show yesterday. Available from NERA at £3.50. 
 

It is a reproduction of a 1934 report detailing the pros and cons of the railcars. Included are examples of the types of service that they were used on, availability statistics and estimates of costs. There is also a follow up (short) report recommending the scrapping of the Clayton designs.

 

Although it is quite a “dry” read; for me, it was very interesting to see the contemporary views about these railcars and their uses and benefits. The diesel railcars were brand new and also feature briefly….. with the benefit of hindsight I think it’s a real shame that they weren’t developed more.

 

One thing I did note was that, in the cost estimates,  the lifespan of the railcars was assumed to be 15 years. In reality I think that the actual scrapping dates were approximately at 15 years of age…..if no WW2 would they have been replaced? In contrast, the life expectancy of standard stock was quoted as 40 years for cost purposes.

 

As a piece of social history, I also find it interesting how business reports were produced at the time. Without the benefits of spreadsheets and word processors, the report has to be succinct. I think that, if produced now, the authors would be sent back to get much more data to back up their recommendations…..although I’m not sure that the modern approach always produces more accurate reasoning🙂

I picked up a copy on Saturday too - a quick flick through was fascinating reading, including a note that at least one line's services were saved because, by introducing railcar operation, operating costs were sufficiently reduced to justify service retention. A side effect replicated in the 80's by the introduction of Pacers, of course...

 

Mark

[MarkC]

On 12/02/2024 at 22:45, Mike 84C said:

Thanks for your reply Mark. I wonder if prints are at the vagaries of Shapeways! I did think about asking the author if it could be printed in resin but the to do stack is just too large so maybe later. Please keep posting your progress as its a very unusual subject.

I will indeed, Mike.

 

Yes, I suspect that print quality may well be partly a result of what printer is used for individual prints.

 

Sadly RL got in the way of much modelling my last leave, so no further progress was made with the Clayton. Hopefully next leave will be more productive.

 

Mark

[Jon4470]

7 hours ago, 2750Papyrus said:

Just had a quick look at the NERA website, but couldn't spot it.

As Richard has already posted, it is brand new.
I’m sure if you contact the sales officer from the website link they will be able to confirm the costs for postage, and then get a copy out to you.(as long as you are happy with the costs)