LNER Sentinel & Clayton Railcars - livery & other questions

[MikeTrice]

They look as if they might be the same as LNER Guard's Van. Hinge both ends so they can be closed, fully open, or open one end:

 

[Chas Levin]

Hello Mike, I don't think they are. They're described as "pivoting around a vertical centre line". I think you can see that in those photos; in the second one, of Eagle, I think you can see how one horizontal half of the frame has moved inwards, behind the vertical plane of the outside of the vehicle, as the othrer half has correspondingly moved outwards, in front of that plane - it's visible too on the first shot, of Cleveland. Imagine a metal rod going down through the centre of the frame, top to bottom, behind the glass. The whole frame then pivots around that rod, so as one half of the frame swings outwards, the other half swings inwards.

Presumably there were stops, to prevent the frame swinging round and round like a weather vane.

Edited October 13, 2023 by Chas Levin

[MikeTrice]

I understand what you are suggesting but I am not convinced.

[Jon4470]

3 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

Another aspect of the Sentinel 'cars I've been researching is the opening toplights on Diagram 96 vehicles. These are described as pivoting around a vertical centre-line, which some might find difficult to visualise - I certainly did - but here are crops from a couple of photos that make it much clearer:

 

 

 

It's also noted that they were later fixed and no longer opening, which is what I think we're seeing in this photo:

 

 

For the Diagram 97 'cars, the toplights were fixed from the start, with some of the lower larger panes built as opening droplights, seen in quite a few Dia 97 photos, but I thought it was worth showing these Dia 96 windows, as they're a little less usual.

 

The photo of Cleveland also shows the destination blind fitted to the NEA railcars in the middle top light window……whereas Flower of Yarrow shows the destination boards in use on the van compartment.

[Chas Levin]

12 hours ago, MikeTrice said:

I understand what you are suggesting but I am not convinced.

 

You may be right - if I hadn't read the description about a centre vertical pivot I'd agree with you. Maybe another photo will turn up that'll remove any doubts.

 

One thing that would explain is the way in some photos some of the toplights seem to be pushed out, while others remain set quite far back...🤔

 

If they are like the guard's van windows though, where did the idea of a centre pivot come from?

 

Or was this another one of those things that varied, even within a class?

Edited October 14, 2023 by Chas Levin

[Chas Levin]

10 hours ago, Jon4470 said:

 

The photo of Cleveland also shows the destination blind fitted to the NEA railcars in the middle top light window……whereas Flower of Yarrow shows the destination boards in use on the van compartment.

 

Yes, I noticed that and I've seen both positions in use for destination notices on other railcar photos too.

 

Interestingly though, the full uncropped photo of Cleveland shows the destination board brackets you can see being used on Flower of Yarrow were fitted to Cleveland's van compartment, but they're empty: perhaps it was just that when they didn't happen to have the wooden destination boards onboard on a particular run, they used paper ones in the windows instead?

Edited October 14, 2023 by Chas Levin

[Jon4470]

Hi Chas 

 

As I understand it, the North Eastern Area used destination blinds and all the other areas used the brackets and boards. I think this relates to pre-grouping practice.

 

I don’t think the NEA removed the brackets though……they just didn’t use them.

 

I presume that the destination blinds were in a box, and that the box could be removed if the railcar was transferred to another area.

 

Jon

[Chas Levin]

2 hours ago, Jon4470 said:

Hi Chas 

 

As I understand it, the North Eastern Area used destination blinds and all the other areas used the brackets and boards. I think this relates to pre-grouping practice.

 

I don’t think the NEA removed the brackets though……they just didn’t use them.

 

I presume that the destination blinds were in a box, and that the box could be removed if the railcar was transferred to another area.

 

Jon

Very interesting Jon; I didn't realise the practice varied by area. It seems quite a small thing to be so specific about: people can be very tribal, can't they? 😉

[Chas Levin]

On 04/07/2023 at 14:05, 31A said:

I believe the chutes / boxes in question are the water fillers.

 

In the back of my mind, I've seen a photo of one being watered from a conventional Water Crane with the 'bag' through that hatch.  Of course now, I can't find the picture.

 

But in the RCTS Green Book (Vol 10B) there are several references to them.

 

Page 19, in connection with the Diagram 88 cars: "The sliding door .... on each side of the engine compartment was positioned further forward, with only one small drop window ahead of it instead of two large ones with toplight.  Behind the doors were sliding panels for filling the two water tanks (each holding 150 gallons) now located in the engine compartment.  Coal still had to be loaded in bags and passed through the doorway".

 

Page 21, referring to Diagram 153, one of the early cars rebuilt: "driver's door repositioned further forward....to clear the relocated water tanks, the latter now filled through sliding panels at the sides".

 

Page 27, in connection with the Diagram 98 200HP Double-Engine Railcars:  "Drop panels giving access to the water fillers were situated between the luggage compartment doors and passenger saloon doors".

 

And page 28 - the Diagram 159 cars, the last three built:  "The tank fillers at either side between the doors of the luggage compartment and saloon were in a recess and were no longer covered by a drop panel.  Apparently reality was at last faced in that these panels were frequently left open when the cars were in service".

 

 

I just came across another source to confirm the purpose of what appear to be chutes in the cab-side windows of these vehicles, in a recently purchased copy of 'The Sentinel - Volume 1 1875-1930', by W. j. Hughes & J. L. Thomas, published in 1973 by David & Charles, though interestingly, it refers to "hinged side panels for replenishing the tanks" (my italics).

I realise Steve @31A that your quotes from the RCTS leave little room for doubt about the purpose of these openings, but it's always useful to have further confirmation.

Not to mention the fact that we now have a modelling choice between sliding, drop or hinged panels, or leaving the recesses uncovered...

[Chas Levin]

The Hughes & Thomas book I quoted form in my last post also has some more brief details on interiors for the Sentinel vehicles.

 

The two Diagram 14600-614E 'cars nos. 5456 &7 purchased by the LNER in 1925 (and run in fully lined out teak livery) had seats in green velvet, but there's no mention of seat colour for later diagrams unfortunately.

 

The six-cylinder 'cars whose class started with Diagram 93 Nettle and which were continued as Diagrams 96 and 97 have a little more decorative detail given - they're described as being lined inside with mahogany, with the roof being lined with 'Sundeala' panels. 

[Chas Levin]

On 13/10/2023 at 16:46, MikeTrice said:

They look as if they might be the same as LNER Guard's Van. Hinge both ends so they can be closed, fully open, or open one end:

 

 

Hello Mike, this toplights question has been sitting on the back burner in my mind since we discussed it.

 

I'm often looking at Sentinel photos currently, I've kept an eye out for further toplight information and I owe you an apology: I now think you're right, at any rate for some of the vehicles.

 

For some, the photos still look to me as if they're pivoted around a vertical centre, but others that I've either only found recently, or not really studied closely enough before, now look to me as if they're definitely the same mechanism as the LNER guards' van ones in your post - here's just one example, not the best quality but I think you can clearly see that the toplights are all in the fully open position, leading to them appearing to be standing considerably proud of the surrounding frames:

 

 

Having once realised this, I then went back and re-studied other pictures and as is often the way of these things, they seem to confirm it too!

 

So there we are: thank you for the original suggestion Mike - very well spotted - and apologies for doubting you.

Edited December 8, 2023 by Chas Levin

[MarkC]

Apologies if I've missed it in this thread, but thinking of the imitation teak finish with primrose lining that the early LNER railcars were turned out in, can anyone please recommend suitable paints? I'm not convinced that the Phoenix paint system of a yellow/cream base coat followed by the reddish brown topcoat which is applied with a scumbling effect is the best solution, as the photos I've seen don't really show much of a large graining finish. I've successfully used the Phoenix system on vehicles which were teak panelled, but would it work on these steel sided vehicles? Ditto a suitable paint for the primrose lining. I don't want to end up trying different finishes on the Shapeways body I have; I'd sooner do it once & do it right.

 

Thanks.

 

Mark

[micklner]

The Rails NER Autocar on the  LNER Version they made it in  a plain pale "Teak" Brown with a  Yellow lining and a very thin Red lining on the outside of the Yellow which was barely visible .

I have never seen any photos of "Teak" painted Railcars. A simple copy perhaps of the Rails LNER version is all thats needed ?. I would use the Precision Paints  LNER Teak Brown .

Edited January 3 by micklner
Better description

[MarkC]

9 minutes ago, micklner said:

The Rails NER Autocar on the  LNER Version they made it in  a plain pale "Teak" Brown with a very thin  Yellow/Red lining which was barely visible .

I have never seen any photos of "Teak" painted Railcars. A simple copy perhaps of the Rails LNER version is all thats needed ?. I would use the Precision Paints  LNER Teak Brown .

Hi Mick

 

That might well work. The joys of trying to be prepared for a lot of painting when I get home!

 

This livery thing is a minefield...

 

Cheers

Mark

[Jon4470]

1 hour ago, MarkC said:

Hi Mick

 

That might well work. The joys of trying to be prepared for a lot of painting when I get home!

 

This livery thing is a minefield...

 

Cheers

Mark

Hello Mark

 

The few photos that I have seen of these vehicles in teak are very dark. I think that this is probably just the nature of the films used at the time….quite a number of late 1920s photos of Gresley carriages also look very dark to me.

 

I sometimes wonder whether any graining should really be visible on our models since they are normally viewed from quite a distance. In reality the carriages would probably look brown - albeit with some panel variation.

 

In the end I suppose it comes down to the finish that we each feel happiest with.

 

For what it’s worth I use Humbrol 7  for the primrose lining on my carriages.

 

I will also send you a pm.

 

Jon

[Chas Levin]

2 hours ago, MarkC said:

Apologies if I've missed it in this thread, but thinking of the imitation teak finish with primrose lining that the early LNER railcars were turned out in, can anyone please recommend suitable paints? I'm not convinced that the Phoenix paint system of a yellow/cream base coat followed by the reddish brown topcoat which is applied with a scumbling effect is the best solution, as the photos I've seen don't really show much of a large graining finish. I've successfully used the Phoenix system on vehicles which were teak panelled, but would it work on these steel sided vehicles? Ditto a suitable paint for the primrose lining. I don't want to end up trying different finishes on the Shapeways body I have; I'd sooner do it once & do it right.

 

Thanks.

 

Mark

Hello Mark, interesting question, how to represent painted 'fake' teak steel panelling...

 

I've read elsewhere (can't pinpoint it right now) that given how good the livery painters were at the time, real varnished teak and 'fake' painted teak would actually have looked pretty much the same (and even more so at 4mm scale) so I think you can use the same techniques (e.g. those advocated by Andrew 'Headstock', Jonathan Wealleans, Mike Trice and, as you mentioned, Phoenix).

 

Certainly those photos I have in books of painted teak on steel do look the same as real teak, at any rate in B&W photos...

[MarkC]

Well, we'll know in a couple of weeks how well the teak finish will appear on my Clayton's bodywork. I'll have a go on some scrap first though. Thanks for all the thoughts & advice - always appreciated. I'd like the beast to be finished for the South Shields show in February, but we'll see how it all goes.

 

Cheers

Mark

[adanapress]

In company with the District Motive Power boss from Norwich,   once  and only the once saw a Sentinel

with its nose just sticking out of some sort of archway at or adjacent to Lowestoft station in what must have been 1954-55.  Sorry to say that all I recall of livery was that it was  quite extraordinary dirty,  Geoff said that it had been used by the pw folk.  Looked abandoned to me.

[micklner]

19 minutes ago, adanapress said:

In company with the District Motive Power boss from Norwich,   once  and only the once saw a Sentinel

with its nose just sticking out of some sort of archway at or adjacent to Lowestoft station in what must have been 1954-55.  Sorry to say that all I recall of livery was that it was  quite extraordinary dirty,  Geoff said that it had been used by the pw folk.  Looked abandoned to me.

Last LNER Sentinel Railcar was withdrawn in 1948 . According to attached link East Anglia based  Sentinels finished by around 1939 .

 

https://www.lner.info/locos/Railcar/sentinel.php

[Chas Levin]

16 hours ago, adanapress said:

In company with the District Motive Power boss from Norwich,   once  and only the once saw a Sentinel

with its nose just sticking out of some sort of archway at or adjacent to Lowestoft station in what must have been 1954-55.  Sorry to say that all I recall of livery was that it was  quite extraordinary dirty,  Geoff said that it had been used by the pw folk.  Looked abandoned to me.

 

16 hours ago, micklner said:

Last LNER Sentinel Railcar was withdrawn in 1948 . According to attached link East Anglia based  Sentinels finished by around 1939 .

 

https://www.lner.info/locos/Railcar/sentinel.php

 

That would make sense then, if they were withdrawn '48, that some might still be in use by pw half a dozen years later? Doesn't sound like they treated them to a repaint in LNER Departmental Oxford Blue though!

[micklner]

I have never seen/read  anything relating to Sentinels being used for anything ,other than for normal passenger use.

[Jon4470]

Just a co-incidence…..I have been reading Hush Hush by William Brown over the last few days and, at one point, he says “ when I was an apprentice at Shildon Works the body of Royal Sovereign was grounded near the level crossing”.
From his introduction, I would guess that this was late 1960s or early 1970s.

 

I wonder if the reference to P W use at Lowestoft is as a grounded store or mess hut?

[Chas Levin]

I've seen more than one photo of grounded Sentinel bodies in use, can't remember where now though I think at least one's in Yeadon.

Edited January 11 by Chas Levin

[jwealleans]

One of the two Guisborough branch ones (Old John Bull or Old Blue) became a cricket pavilion.   That's in Yeadon, I'm fairly sure.

[Chas Levin]

On 12/01/2024 at 08:21, jwealleans said:

One of the two Guisborough branch ones (Old John Bull or Old Blue) became a cricket pavilion.   That's in Yeadon, I'm fairly sure.

 

Well remembered Jonathan: Old John Bull became the pavilion at the Railway Athletic Club's ground in Darlington and is seen in a photo there from October 1961 on page 47 of Yeadon.

 

On 11/01/2024 at 20:25, Jon4470 said:

Just a co-incidence…..I have been reading Hush Hush by William Brown over the last few days and, at one point, he says “ when I was an apprentice at Shildon Works the body of Royal Sovereign was grounded near the level crossing”.
From his introduction, I would guess that this was late 1960s or early 1970s.

 

I wonder if the reference to P W use at Lowestoft is as a grounded store or mess hut?

 

Yes indeed Jon, Royal Sovereign did war service as offices at Shildon from September 1941 and is seen there in August 1961 on page 61 of Yeadon - it survived until 1965.