LNER Sentinel & Clayton Railcars - livery & other questions

[Chas Levin]

14 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Yeah, wonder how they found a driver with the route knowledge

 

"Tell you what mate, at this time of night I'd go round the sphinx - round the back of the pyramids'll be a nightmare..."

[Jon4470]

I didn’t find very much about railcars in the NERA magazine back copies (plenty of other things to distract me however🙂)

 

There were some interesting accounts of local services in various areas - by people who’d used the railway in the 1920’s and 30’s….fascinating. One quote that referenced the railcars went something like this “when they were introduced they were shiny and new so we liked them. Then they became rather shabby and were like hot boxes on wheels”. It gives some flavour to other comments that I have seen to the effect that they had to be maintained in steam sheds, coaled etc which was not conducive to keeping a carriage clean for the passengers. It also hints at another potential problem of heat, insulation and ventilation.

[Chas Levin]

It's human nature, isn't it? We love our shiny new toys - railcars, kitchens, governments - but after a while, they start to look a little shabby, a little frayed around the edges, a little corrupt...

 

Seriously though, I'd imagine it was a particular problem with steam railcars because the source of steam, smoke, coal dust, cinders (and her two ugly sisters) is right there, inside the same vehicle as the seating. Quite different to an unpowered coach.

[Chas Levin]

Can anyone please tell me what is the object or fitting seen protruding from the cab-side window next to the cab door in this photo?

 

[Jon4470]

15 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

Can anyone please tell me what is the object or fitting seen protruding from the cab-side window next to the cab door in this photo?

 

Hi Chas

 

I had a quick look at the diagrams that I have access to. In that location (on both sides) the plan view shows a “box” ( it is labelled as a box). Not that helpful I know!

I guess what is visible here is the open lid to said box.

There are a few views in Yeadons that show the closed box through the opened window. I had not spotted this before now, but then again, the NuCast body has the windows firmly shut🙂

 

[Chas Levin]

1 hour ago, Jon4470 said:

Hi Chas

 

I had a quick look at the diagrams that I have access to. In that location (on both sides) the plan view shows a “box” ( it is labelled as a box). Not that helpful I know!

I guess what is visible here is the open lid to said box.

There are a few views in Yeadons that show the closed box through the opened window. I had not spotted this before now, but then again, the NuCast body has the windows firmly shut🙂

 

 

Thanks Jon - embarrassingly I hadn't thought of checking the diagrams as I assumed it was some sort of fitting that wouldn't be included, but now I write that I realise that of course all sorts of internal fittings are included! It was just one of those "Ooh - what's that? Let's ask!" moments.

The photo from which I took that crop is in fact from Yeadon but again, I'm afraid I posted in haste and didn't even think of looking at others in the same book: sorry!

I don't have Yeadon to hand right now, but I do have my file of digital images and armed with the knowledge that there's something there, I now see in a couple of photos that there is some kind of large (around door-height) structure inside the window, something I'd never noticed before.

I'll re-check Yeadon tonight; I wonder if it was perhaps somewhere to carry (very) small parcels or post, for delivery en route...?

[MikeTrice]

Curiouser and curiouser. There is a clearer image in the Transport Library of the same image. What is more obvious in the Transport Library image is there is a chute below the opening. Given that it is positioned in line with the roof coal hatch I wonder if it is a way of loading coal from platform level.

[natterjack]

44 minutes ago, MikeTrice said:

I wonder if it is a way of loading coal from platform level

Or possibly the sandbox?

[Jon4470]

A couple of musings about the mystery boxes.

 

On diagram 96 there was a sliding window. On diagram 97 this became a panel. The d96 cars were retro fitted with the panel….apparently because the windows suffered breakage….which isn’t surprising if the top opens as shown in that photo!

 

It looks like it is designed to take something from the outside…..and looks like solid objects (packets, coal, sand etc)…. But there’s also a water tank to fill in that general area. Where are the water tank fillers? 
 

 

[Chas Levin]

It is odd: as observed, the areas inside the windows on both sides are marked as being part of the water tank (with no indication as you say Jon of filler location). Isinglass - based on Dia 96 - just shows the areas as 'Water Tank' with no other detail, Yeadon on the Dia 97 plan shows 'Water Tank' too, plus the 'box' markings you mention Jon.

Here's a crop of the Yeadon Dia 97 plan, posted for research purposes only, with the corresponding side view included to show where the sections are from the side, including the 'Sliding shutter':

 

 

I agree that it looks like something designed to receive solid matter - it surely isn't intended to receive water and presumably the water filler inlets must be on the roof (cue further scouring of roof views tomorrow!).

Even though this area's on the plans as Water Tank, there might of course have been small coal shutes passing through the water tank, but surely, if you had the large coal hatch through the roof and that was the usual bulk coaling inlet (as can be seen in some photos of railcars actually being coaled that way) they wouldn't also have side loading openings too, especially as the amount of coal you could load that way would be very small.

@natterjack, I think it would be too high for the sandboxes: I'd assume they were loaded from somewhere around solebar level but it's another idea and another thing to try and spot in a picture somewhere...

And what would the marked "boxes" be for? Small parcels were routinely carried from station to station in those days, so I'm still quite attached to the parcels theory. That would also fit quite well with a sliding shutter, slid up to receive parcels...?

[Jon4470]

9 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

It is odd: as observed, the areas inside the windows on both sides are marked as being part of the water tank (with no indication as you say Jon of filler location). Isinglass - based on Dia 96 - just shows the areas as 'Water Tank' with no other detail, Yeadon on the Dia 97 plan shows 'Water Tank' too, plus the 'box' markings you mention Jon.

Here's a crop of the Yeadon Dia 97 plan, posted for research purposes only, with the corresponding side view included to show where the sections are from the side, including the 'Sliding shutter':

 

 

I agree that it looks like something designed to receive solid matter - it surely isn't intended to receive water and presumably the water filler inlets must be on the roof (cue further scouring of roof views tomorrow!).

Even though this area's on the plans as Water Tank, there might of course have been small coal shutes passing through the water tank, but surely, if you had the large coal hatch through the roof and that was the usual bulk coaling inlet (as can be seen in some photos of railcars actually being coaled that way) they wouldn't also have side loading openings too, especially as the amount of coal you could load that way would be very small.

@natterjack, I think it would be too high for the sandboxes: I'd assume they were loaded from somewhere around solebar level but it's another idea and another thing to try and spot in a picture somewhere...

And what would the marked "boxes" be for? Small parcels were routinely carried from station to station in those days, so I'm still quite attached to the parcels theory. That would also fit quite well with a sliding shutter, slid up to receive parcels...?

 

Hi Chas

I’m glad that you put that plan up….because it made me look at it carefully. 
 

The sandboxes are in the driving cab right at the front. Presumably they were filled here as well.

 

I would think parcels would be carried in the luggage compartment……and when I looked, there it is - a letter rack and a locker for insured parcels. So, I can’t think why they’d have additional boxes for parcels.

 

I have read that the early railcars (without roof hatches) were coaled using coal bags taken inside the cab. So I suppose that these chutes could be something to do with that…a back up way of (limited) coaling?

 

Still baffled really🙂

Edited July 4, 2023 by Jon4470
Clarification

[natterjack]

3 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

I think it would be too high for the sandboxes

Also, your reference image clearly shows sand boxes in the cab front corners.

[Chas Levin]

7 hours ago, natterjack said:

Also, your reference image clearly shows sand boxes in the cab front corners.

Yes, indeed: sorry I missed that and thank you for pointing it out! Sometimes, I shock myself with how unobservant I am, even when posting and talking about something I've been examining! Jon pointed them out too.

 

However, they're a long way from the box / shute assembly we're looking at so I still don't think they were filled from it...

[Chas Levin]

10 hours ago, Jon4470 said:

Hi Chas

I’m glad that you put that plan up….because it made me look at it carefully. 
 

The sandboxes are in the driving cab right at the front. Presumably they were filled here as well.

 

I would think parcels would be carried in the luggage compartment……and when I looked, there it is - a letter rack and a locker for insured parcels. So, I can’t think why they’d have additional boxes for parcels.

 

I have read that the early railcars (without roof hatches) were coaled using coal bags taken inside the cab. So I suppose that these chutes could be something to do with that…a back up way of (limited) coaling?

 

Still baffled really🙂

 

Moring Jon, ah, that perhaps changes things then, if sacks of coal taken into the cabs were an established way of loading.

 

I have sometimes thought that it must have been a slightly risky situation where supposedly the only coal loading method involved the roof hatch, because if they did happen to run short of coal on say a long run to a small branch line station in the Scottish Highlands, where the necessary facilities weren't there. I poted this page from the 1934 LNER Magazine further upthread, but here it is again for quick reference. It shows how far from easy coaoling these vehicles was, necessitating apart form anything else the construction of s dedicated crane:

 

 

While looking for this picture, I also came across this one, again posted previously but in pursuit of details about the lining and what I noticed this time is the clear presence of some kind of struction within the windown openeing behind the cab door, this time on the vehicle's right-hand side:

 

 

Nice spot too Jon about the letter and insured parcels rack - low parks once again for my observational abilities!

[jwealleans]

Pure speculation, but might the boxes be the equivalent of the lockers on loco tenders for enginemen's use?

[natterjack]

16 minutes ago, jwealleans said:

Pure speculation, but might the boxes be the equivalent of the lockers on loco tenders for enginemen's use?

The boxes appear to be quite tall and only top opening, presumably to suit their purpose and if this is to accommodate tools I wonder if there would be enough head room for the easy extraction of any long implements.

[Chas Levin]

36 minutes ago, jwealleans said:

Pure speculation, but might the boxes be the equivalent of the lockers on loco tenders for enginemen's use?

 

14 minutes ago, natterjack said:

The boxes appear to be quite tall and only top opening, presumably to suit their purpose and if this is to accommodate tools I wonder if there would be enough head room for the easy extraction of any long implements.

 

Also, that does appear to be some sort of shute, opening outwards into the window opening in the photo of Royal Forester that I'd originally asked about: if they were designed for crew use inside the cab, what would that shute be for?

 

Re. long implements though, they might have tall cupboard-style doors opening inwards, a bit like a gun cupboard?

 

Not that I'm suggesting these vehicles had gun cupboards; I know some of them traversed some fairly wild areas of Scotland, but even so... 😁

[Chas Levin]

16 hours ago, MikeTrice said:

There is a clearer image in the Transport Library of the same image. What is more obvious in the Transport Library image is there is a chute below the opening. Given that it is positioned in line with the roof coal hatch I wonder if it is a way of loading coal from platform level.

 

Thanks for spotting this Mike: I hadn't thought of cross-checking the photos in Yeadon (or any other books for that matter) to see if there were higher resolution versions available there.

This image is particularly useful, as I've been using that photo in Yeadon as my main reference in fabricating coal hatch door supports, as it shows them in some detail, including what I believe to be their curved support pieces, but that's something for my own thread rather than here.

I've just bought the full resolution image (to try and see more of those hatch door supports) and here's a very limited crop of just the open doorway and neighbouring window, with the mystery box / shute installation we're puzzling over (with the usual disclaimer, that this crop is being posted purely for study purposes):

 

 

I'm still not at all sure what to make of it, but I think it looks like the top of a box that's been folded open, hanging down in front of the box body, with quite deep side flaps. I can also see something on the left-hand side of what I'm taking to be the box top or lid, which might be a handle, or a sliding fixing - I've circled it in green.

 

There are also various interesting looking things dimly visible inside the doorway, which we can perhaps identify by comparing them with the internal cab views posted upthread on June 7, by @Curlew...

[Michael Hodgson]

Pure speculation, but where would you put this ?

[Chas Levin]

10 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Pure speculation, but where would you put this ?

 

Well, agreed you'd probably put it in a locker or cupboard of some sort (assuming you're suggesting that Michael 🙂) but I still think you'd have a locker or cupboard opening inside the cab. I'd imagine you'd climb aboard, carrying your railwayman's case (if that's the correct term for that rather smart looking bag), say hello to any fellow crew members and then stash your bag.

 

Unless of course things were so cramped inside the cab that there wasn't room to have a box or locker door open inwards, so you did have to pop your bag into an outward opening shute, which I guess is not impossible.

 

But what would happen if you needed something from your bag while travelling - sandwiches, perhaps, or a handkerchief? 

[31A]

I believe the chutes / boxes in question are the water fillers.

 

In the back of my mind, I've seen a photo of one being watered from a conventional Water Crane with the 'bag' through that hatch.  Of course now, I can't find the picture.

 

But in the RCTS Green Book (Vol 10B) there are several references to them.

 

Page 19, in connection with the Diagram 88 cars: "The sliding door .... on each side of the engine compartment was positioned further forward, with only one small drop window ahead of it instead of two large ones with toplight.  Behind the doors were sliding panels for filling the two water tanks (each holding 150 gallons) now located in the engine compartment.  Coal still had to be loaded in bags and passed through the doorway".

 

Page 21, referring to Diagram 153, one of the early cars rebuilt: "driver's door repositioned further forward....to clear the relocated water tanks, the latter now filled through sliding panels at the sides".

 

Page 27, in connection with the Diagram 98 200HP Double-Engine Railcars:  "Drop panels giving access to the water fillers were situated between the luggage compartment doors and passenger saloon doors".

 

And page 28 - the Diagram 159 cars, the last three built:  "The tank fillers at either side between the doors of the luggage compartment and saloon were in a recess and were no longer covered by a drop panel.  Apparently reality was at last faced in that these panels were frequently left open when the cars were in service".

 

[natterjack]

47 minutes ago, 31A said:

I believe the chutes / boxes in question are the water fillers.

As plausible as your evidence would appear to be (&  it makes complete sense to me), it would remain odd that these details were  referred to as boxes on the drawing above. Of course, this does not infer the draught was created from any particularly well informed knowledge. Canards can appear from anywhere and continue as gospel.

[Chas Levin]

1 hour ago, 31A said:

I believe the chutes / boxes in question are the water fillers.

 

In the back of my mind, I've seen a photo of one being watered from a conventional Water Crane with the 'bag' through that hatch.  Of course now, I can't find the picture.

 

But in the RCTS Green Book (Vol 10B) there are several references to them.

 

Page 19, in connection with the Diagram 88 cars: "The sliding door .... on each side of the engine compartment was positioned further forward, with only one small drop window ahead of it instead of two large ones with toplight.  Behind the doors were sliding panels for filling the two water tanks (each holding 150 gallons) now located in the engine compartment.  Coal still had to be loaded in bags and passed through the doorway".

 

Page 21, referring to Diagram 153, one of the early cars rebuilt: "driver's door repositioned further forward....to clear the relocated water tanks, the latter now filled through sliding panels at the sides".

 

Page 27, in connection with the Diagram 98 200HP Double-Engine Railcars:  "Drop panels giving access to the water fillers were situated between the luggage compartment doors and passenger saloon doors".

 

And page 28 - the Diagram 159 cars, the last three built:  "The tank fillers at either side between the doors of the luggage compartment and saloon were in a recess and were no longer covered by a drop panel.  Apparently reality was at last faced in that these panels were frequently left open when the cars were in service".

 

 

Well Steve that does sound like you've nailed it: well done Sir! I have to say that the large box-like opening still doesn't look very much like a tank filler to me, but clearly they come in many shapes and sizes and the evidence you've assembled does seem pretty conclusive. Thank you for checking - I was going to look through Yeadon again tonight but I don't have the relevant RCTS volume.

 

28 minutes ago, natterjack said:

As plausible as your evidence would appear to be (&  it makes complete sense to me), it would remain odd that these details were  referred to as boxes on the drawing above. Of course, this does not infer the draught was created from any particularly well informed knowledge. Canards can appear from anywhere and continue as gospel.

 

Yes, fully agree. You never know where such info came from originally and once it's been printed (let along put on the inter-web) it can get firmly stuck in peoples' minds. 

On the other hand, the answer may be that both things are correct, i.e. that there was a storage box of some kind just behind and slightly to one side of those windows, but the tank fillers were next to them and actually facing out of the windows.

 

That unidentified feature on the side of the lid or shute mouth that I circled in green upthread looks to me like some sort of catch or sliding part to allow the 'mouth' to slide forward...

[Chas Levin]

Hello all, a quick livery colour question that I don't think has been covered anywhere: does anyone know what colour the Sentinel railcar wheel centres were please?

I've looked carefully at various photos in Yeadon and digitally and I'm fairly certain they were black (with white rims when newly ex-works) but if anyone has any other info (if by any chance for instance they were green, to match the lower body panels) please would you let me know?

[Chas Levin]

Another aspect of the Sentinel 'cars I've been researching is the opening toplights on Diagram 96 vehicles. These are described as pivoting around a vertical centre-line, which some might find difficult to visualise - I certainly did - but here are crops from a couple of photos that make it much clearer:

 

 

 

It's also noted that they were later fixed and no longer opening, which is what I think we're seeing in this photo:

 

 

For the Diagram 97 'cars, the toplights were fixed from the start, with some of the lower larger panes built as opening droplights, seen in quite a few Dia 97 photos, but I thought it was worth showing these Dia 96 windows, as they're a little less usual.