A LSWR, LBSC & SECR crossover point?

[Nearholmer]

Lack of recognition of running powers, and complete ignorance of working arrangements, is so widespread among otherwise reasonably well-informed railway enthusiasts that it would be a service to many if someone transposed all the known info onto a map to be read in parallel with the junction diagrams. While they’re about it, they might also draw a few tube-map style representations of actual timetabled services as they existed at different dates, because that opens another view on things. Should keep “Someone” busy for a while!

[bécasse]

9 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Lack of recognition of running powers, and complete ignorance of working arrangements, is so widespread among otherwise reasonably well-informed railway enthusiasts that it would be a service to many if someone transposed all the known info onto a map to be read in parallel with the junction diagrams. While they’re about it, they might also draw a few tube-map style representations of actual timetabled services as they existed at different dates, because that opens another view on things. Should keep “Someone” busy for a while!

Very kind of you to volunteer!

 

One interesting and little known fact about the former SER route into Reading was that Reading Junction signal box where the running connection to the GWR went off was a LSWR box even though it was situated on a SER running line, apparently as part of the complex agreement between the two railways that allowed the LSWR to run over the SER route into Reading. It was manned by the LSWR but I suspect had SER block instruments (at least to the SER boxes either side). The LSWR, of course, didn't see the GWR connection as being very important from a passenger traffic point of view (at least for regular traffic) but did see it as being very important for goods.

[Nearholmer]

Just now, bécasse said:

Very kind of you to volunteer!

My one attempt at this sort of thing was to start drawing “Sherlock Holmes’ Tube Map”, a representation of timetabled services c1890, starting with the top of the Circle, including The Widened Lines, and even that drove me scatty (scattier?). You have to have a particular sort of personality to undertake a project like that, and I don’t have it!

[Morello Cherry]

Would someone be able to help make sense of this map for me to understand running powers etc

 

At Lavender Hill Jnc it is shown as changing from SECR to LSWR. While South Lambeth Goods is marked with 'boundary of property' (what did this mean in effect?)

 

You have the parallel LSWR, LBSCR, SECR and West London Ext at Longhenge but I can't work out what is happening with the lines there.

 

Clapham Jnc/Longhenge 1912 RCH map via flickr.

 

 

Edited July 7, 2022 by Morello Cherry

[Nearholmer]

The main purpose of Longhedge Junction, and bits of Clapham Junction, is to get to and from the West London, which was of importance to all of the partners in it because it connected the ‘northern’ and ‘southern’ railways.
 

The GWR ran passenger trains into Victoria and goods to South Lambeth. At some stage in the dim and distant the GWR also worked some suburban services on behalf of the nascent LC&D, out as far I think as Bromley, and there is tentative evidence pointing to the GWR providing a steam railcar to work a skeletal sunday suburban service over the SECR for a period in the 1910s.

 

The LNWR ran passenger to Croydon and, I think also using their own engines and brakes, coal trains to Clapham Junction and a place called Knight’s Hill.

 

Moving away from the WLL, the Midland ran coal trains via Dudding Hill and the LSWR onto the LC&D (SECR) to serve the yard at Wandsworth Road, and I think some of their other South London coal depots, although they also used the route via The City Widened Lines.

 

I think all of this was “by arrangement”, rather than running powers, although things going to Victoria get complex, because that was owned at “ground level” by the Victoria Station & Pimlico Railway, of which the GWR was part owner, so they may have had rights in here somewhere too.

 

The boundary of property simply marks the boundary between LC&D (SECR) and GWR property. Lavender Hill Junction was an ‘end on’ junction between the two companies, and I’m not sure it even had a signalbox.

 

The important LBSCR South London Line route to London Bridge was accessed via the LC&D.

 

There were also goods trains to/from the WLL from the LBSCR and LSWR to both the GWR and LNWR, but I’ve never completely got my head around whether they exchanged loco and brake at Addison Road (which I think they did), or ran through.

 

And, and, there was a LSWR passenger service that ran to Hammersmith and beyond via the WLL, and, very confusingly, at some points in its history that ran to the City over the LC&D, rather than to Waterloo, which until the W&C was opened was a useless terminus for City passengers, who were the bulk of commuters. 
 

There was a lot more to it than that, but even that should suffice to make the point that the junction diagrams tell you only about ownership, and that isn’t always a good guide to services.

 

The inner suburban service patterns before electric tramways, before the tubes, and before railway electrification were hugely different from what came later, with all sorts services to The City by routes that we would now consider dreadfully convoluted. People from West London were commuting to the city in huge numbers, and had multiple routes to choose from, going north and south of Central London, as well as direct services over the northern part of the Circle, and the District (which was so jammed-up with trains as to be very slow, even if it looked the shortest).

 

 

Edited July 7, 2022 by Nearholmer

[The Lurker]

5 hours ago, bécasse said:

Ten T9s were allocated to Stewarts Lane c1925 to c1940 and eight returned there for a while in 1948. They were principally used on the Chatham route.

I was going off a photo in P Ransome Wallis' Southern Album which shows a triple headed train (T9, Schools, King Arthur) in the far east of Kent in the summer during the late 30s (I forget precisely where). The caption explains that the "superpower" meant fewer light engine workings.

[Olive_Green1923]

9 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Brighton to Tonbridge trains certainly took ex-LBSCR locos s through, although they seem to have been progressively replaced by ex-SECR 4-4-0 such as D class as the rebuilds and new 4-4-0 took over the main line trains on the SE.

 

I’d never heard of T9 on the SE. We’re they tried before the rebuilds?

Many thanks. I’m glad you mention the D class as it is my pre-order of Rails’ D1 that has mostly spurred the query. I have mostly ex-LSWR stock (inc. a T9, M7, O2 and a Drummond 700), so I’m now wondering what location (except London) would have seen some of these locos crossing over with the likes of a D1 in the 1920s and 30s. I will no doubt add other SECR and Brighton locos  and coaches to the stable too, so always good to identify these details early on!

[Morello Cherry]

@Nearholmer - my question is this if you have a train which is running from the SECR to Clapham Junction using Lavender Hill junc or LSWR from Clapham jnc - where does the loco/van change take place? I am assuming there must have been traffic between the two across the junction. Does the SECR run through the extra 40c to Clapham Jnc and change there or somewhere else? Because to go back to the OP it would strike me that Clapham Jnc is somewhere where you would see the three companies plus  GWR and LNWR

[The Stationmaster]

A bit of meat to some of the bones added above by 'Nearholmer'.

 

The LC&DR and GWR were joint lesseees of the Victoria Station and {Pimlico Railway.  This inv cluded the eastern side of Victoria station itself and the lines from that side of the station  as far as Battersea Pier jcn.  At the Grouping the V&PR passed into the Southern Group but the lease arrangement was unchanged and the GWR and (now) the Sr became joint lessees of that part of the V&P.  Originally, from 1863, the GWR had run to Victoria over the LB&SCR side and into the western side of the station but from 1 january 1867 it ran to the eastern side.  regular GWt r passengewr trains to Victoria ceased in March 1915 and were never resumed by that time most of the trains started from Southall but there were some ay various times from further out with - as far as I've traced so far - the most westerly limit being Windsor.

 

South Lambeth was of course GWR property and remained under WR control well into the 1960s (if not later).  The GWR accessed South Lambeth and Victoria and edlsewhere in this part of London with its own trains through various Running Powers  as follows -

1.  Longhedge Jcn - Victoria - Passenger Running Powers

2. Longhedge Jcn - Stewarts Lane Goods Train Running Powers (by arrangement)

3. Longhedge Jcn - South Lambeth Branch Jcn - Goods Train Running Powers (by arrangement) .

 

(The GWR was of course effectively on its own territory as far Longhedge Jcn by virtue of the fact that it was one of the joint owners of the West London Extension Railway.)

[Nearholmer]

There were all sorts of agreements and instructions as to how and where goods trains would be passed between companies, and practices changed down the years, especially in this area as the LSWR migrated most of its goods marshalling and inter-company traffic from Nine Elms (which continued as a goods depot) to Feltham.

 

TBH, I don’t know whether the LSWR and SECR handed over goods via Clapham Junction, but if they did, I would surmise that engine and van were swapped at the station. The primary use of the LSWR-SECR connection was for Midland coal trains, which ran through from Brent/Cricklewood with their own engine and van.

 

The LNWR ran coal trains direct to a yard at Clapham that I think was called Falcon Lane, and onwards to I believe to Another of their yards at Knights Hill near Tulsehill, again with their own engine and van.

 

From what I can work out based on odd clues, LSWR and LBSCR exchanged goods with GWR and LNWR at Addison Road station.

 

The GWR did run a broad gauge passenger service to Clapham Junction in very early years, but I’ve seen no suggestion of their engines being at Clapham Junction after that. The LBSCR ran to Paddington for a short period too IIRC.

 

The goods patterns changed over time, and by BR days there was a set of yard-to-yard services linking the big nodal marshalling  yards around London, but exactly when the pre-grouping arrangements matured to this more focused pattern, which involved western and midland region locos working goods trains to places like Feltham and Norwood, I’m not certain. 
 

The trouble with goods trains is that nobody took much notice, let alone many photos, of them until well into BR days, so without delving into heaps of old paperwork it’s hard to know exactly which locos ran through to where. I’ve never seen a photo of an SECR loco at Clapham Junction, but that doesn’t mean none exist, or that if none exist it never happened! It may have happene Ed at the dead of night, every night, for the best part of a century, with no railway enthusiast ever knowing.

 

 

Edited July 7, 2022 by Nearholmer

[Right Away]

Out of interest, here’s a “Greyhound” running into the Vic in July 1939 with a Kent Coast relief.

 

[roythebus1]

On 05/07/2022 at 10:07, Oldddudders said:

Pre-Grouping? Tell me more.

Not forgetting GWR locos on trains from Reading.

[roythebus1]

To answer Nearholmer, the GW had a broad gauge coal depot up the slope next to the Brighton Lines. The broad gauge also ran passenger services into Victoria and there was a GW goods depot in the Battersea Power Station/Stewarts Lane complex.

 

The LNWR did indeed have a goods depot at Falcon Road.

 

I'd be surprised if different companies changed locos and brake vans at Clapham Junction. It was too busy even in pre-group days to have goods trains hanging around on the main lines.

[Morello Cherry]

FWIW - the Railways Archive if you do SECR accidents it throws up one at Clapham Junction in 1868. Clearly the date is wrong for it to be SECR and there are no documents associated with it.

 

In the absence of photographs accident reports for a location are a good way of finding out what was running through an area as the routing and making up of trains are sometimes described. The one I found interesting was a Gravesend to Southampton military special from the SER which had an accident at Gomshall and it made me wonder how it was going to reach Southampton (reversal at Guildford? via Aldershot and what is now the Mid Hants? via Reading?)

[Oldddudders]

19 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

The GWR had neither Running Powers nor a Working Arrangement from Reading to Redhill (or even to Guildford).

So, as Mike said, while we were all familiar with GWR locos to Redhill in BR days, these were not a feature in Pre-Grouping days, and, as I implied, I have no idea why LSWR locos would have plied the route prior to 1923, either. 

 

The complexities of the track layout in the Longhedge - Stew Lane area, sadly now much rationalised, were quite remarkable. Longhedge Junction box itself was a haven of operating peace, while frantic activity carried on behind it - the LSWR main line - and above it, where the LBSCR lines to Victoria ran. This was particularly true in the evening peak, when very little stirred apart from maybe a freight off the WLL for the South Eastern, creeping round the Up Ludgate Line to sit and await its path at Factory Junction, where the curfew lifted about 18.40, I think. 

 

Close inspection of the map will show three levels of railway within the Stew Lane depot itself, where the Ludgate Lines cross the depot on a bridge, while the South London Lines cross over the Ludgates on arches. A degree of orientation is needed for newcomers to the place!

[Nearholmer]

I only had business at Longhedge SB once, and the signalman spent all the time I was waiting there (for what or who I can’t remember!) playing chess by telegraph with another signalman somewhere else.

[The Lurker]

14 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

The LBSCR ran to Paddington for a short period too IIRC.

 

 

 

Yes your recall is correct; there is an old Railway Magazine article stored in the SREMG archive

 

https://sremg.org.uk/RlyMag/FromPaddingtonToBrighton.pdf

 

I thought that it had a picture of an I1 at Paddington but my memory, in contrast, is faulty!

[bécasse]

2 hours ago, Morello Cherry said:

 

 

In the absence of photographs accident reports for a location are a good way of finding out what was running through an area as the routing and making up of trains are sometimes described. The one I found interesting was a Gravesend to Southampton military special from the SER which had an accident at Gomshall and it made me wonder how it was going to reach Southampton (reversal at Guildford? via Aldershot and what is now the Mid Hants? via Reading?)

Reversal at Guildford and then via Havant and Netley is most likely. The reversal at Guildford would present a natural opportunity to re-engine the train with a LSWR loco.

[Right Away]

.... and an “Eastern” in Western territory. Class F1 No 1043 at the ‘Loo for Reading, 1937.

 

[Compound2632]

11 minutes ago, Right Away said:

.... and an “Eastern” in Western territory. Class F1 No 1043 at the ‘Loo for Reading, 1937.

 

But ultimately in Eastern territory, from Wokingham into Reading. Is it a Reading engine?

[Compound2632]

15 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

The primary use of the LSWR-SECR connection was for Midland coal trains, which ran through from Brent/Cricklewood with their own engine and van.

 

But on the other hand, LSWR engines (and so I assume brakes) went to Cricklewood for traffic to and from their system.

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, The Lurker said:

Yes your recall is correct; there is an old Railway Magazine article stored in the SREMG archive

 

https://sremg.org.uk/RlyMag/FromPaddingtonToBrighton.pdf

 

I thought that it had a picture of an I1 at Paddington but my memory, in contrast, is faulty!

Which is of course how the Crystal Palace Loop at Subway Jcn got its name

 

30 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

But ultimately in Eastern territory, from Wokingham into Reading. Is it a Reading engine?

Probably a Reading engine.  Reading remained the haunt of various older SECR engines right up to the end of their working lives as they gradually gave way to moguls (which of course were also originally an SECR design).

[Nearholmer]

43 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

But on the other hand, LSWR engines (and so I assume brakes) went to Cricklewood for traffic to and from their system.

Ah, that answers a question then, because I’ve never been quite sure how the MR-LSWR  goods, as opposed to coal, was dealt with.

 

In the absence of firm evidence, my surmise is that the “cross London freight” network, linking the big nodal yards emerged just pre or during WW1 when Feltham, Norwood and Hither Green had matured enough, and that from then onwards there were through yard-to-yard services to/from Brent/Cricklewood, Acton/Southill, and Willesden, and that thereafter any handovers mid-way at places like Addison Road ceased, but if that is correct, I have no idea which company provided the loco for each trip, the northern or the southern, or whether it was ‘some and some’, as it was in BR days. 
 

How Stratford and Ferme Park fitted I’ve also no idea WRT to Norwood and Feltham. In BR days there were direct links, but in earlier days maybe they daisy-chained via Willesden or something. For Hither Green the Ferme Park trains ran via The Widened Lines and there was a rather crazy system of shuffling via the ELL and Liverpool Street, all using ‘northern’ engines I think.

 

These flows were Uber-important and busy, but I’ve never seen an inter-war photo of any of them.

 

Definite need for a stack of old WTTs, or a Time Machine.

[Nearholmer]

37 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Which is of course how the Crystal Palace Loop at Subway Jcn got its name

I think not the services mentioned in that article. 

 

The article queries the origin of the name, and I think it was a lot older, dating to the West End of London and Crystal Palace Railway of the late 1850s, and services over that to/from Paddington once the WLER was opened and while Victoria wasn’t fully established. I am hazy as to which company worked those services, but I think it must have been LBSCR. Do you know for sure?

 

 

Edited July 8, 2022 by Nearholmer

[Morello Cherry]

2 hours ago, The Lurker said:

Yes your recall is correct; there is an old Railway Magazine article stored in the SREMG archive

 

https://sremg.org.uk/RlyMag/FromPaddingtonToBrighton.pdf

 

I thought that it had a picture of an I1 at Paddington but my memory, in contrast, is faulty!

 

The article also mentions a Kings X - Bournemouth and Weymouth train via the Widened Lines, Holborn and Clapham Jnc. I wonder again where the loco change was done.

 

The only company who seem to be missing out is the GER.