Does anyone know how large chain was transported from manufacturers (possible wagon-load to model)?

[C126]

If I may appeal to the RMWeb 'hive mind' again, has anyone modelled the transport of chain in wagons?  Picking up a cheap necklace in a charity shop this morning, I wondered how chain was/is transported.  This would scale to 7.5" links, so I was thinking of a load to go to a port for use on ships.  Was it transported on drums like cables?  The cable drums like cotton-reels, not the 'enclosed' sort.  I assume it would not just be coiled onto a pallet, as then it could shift in transit.

 

Any ideas gratefully received as always.  Many thanks for any help you can offer.

[Fat Controller]

First thing to say is that pallets are relatively recent, and are generally limited in capacity. 

You might find something in 'Freight Wagons, Their Load and Loading, on the Great Western Railway and BR Western Region' by J Russell' Another source might be the local Archive. I think Willenhall was the centre for chain making; one of the West Midlanders should know.

[Paul H Vigor]

23 minutes ago, C126 said:

If I may appeal to the RMWeb 'hive mind' again, has anyone modelled the transport of chain in wagons?  Picking up a cheap necklace in a charity shop this morning, I wondered how chain was/is transported.  This would scale to 7.5" links, so I was thinking of a load to go to a port for use on ships.  Was it transported on drums like cables?  The cable drums like cotton-reels, not the 'enclosed' sort.  I assume it would not just be coiled onto a pallet, as then it could shift in transit.

 

Any ideas gratefully received as always.  Many thanks for any help you can offer.

https://bclm.com/2021/06/04/from-land-to-sea-the-journey-of-titanics-anchor/

 

Part of the story?

[Siberian Snooper]

I would think that large link chain would be loaded into open wagons. The 1st end would be put in a corner, then it would run the length of the wagon, before doing a 180°turn and return to the 1st end and continue to zigzag up and down the wagon until it was loaded. That is/was the method used on artic trailers, when anchor chain was sent for inspection and test, at the chain shop. The maximum length of chain would not exceed the weight limit for the trailer or wagon.

 

 

 

 

[F-UnitMad]

1 hour ago, Fat Controller said:

I think Willenhall was the centre for chain making; one of the West Midlanders should know.

Willenhall was brass - locks, padlocks, etc.

Cradley Heath was the centre for chain making, and Netherton just up the road, ships chain & anchors.

[davepen]

Pontypridd had a long history of chain making with the Brown Lenox' factory.   Some of the references suggest the canal was used for transport.

[Fat Controller]

49 minutes ago, davepen said:

Pontypridd had a long history of chain making with the Brown Lenox' factory.   Some of the references suggest the canal was used for transport.

I should have remembered that; my father was born opposite the entrance

[The Johnster]

They made the anchor chains for many of the famous liners and battleships there, and on an occasion in a pub up there when a local was boasting about this I felt the need to comment 'aye, you made the chains for the Bismark as well, but you don't go on about that, do you?', not true of course but it brought the house down!

 

You wouldn't get much of a really big ship's anchor chain in a railway wagon before it was overloaded, so unless the links were connected at the shipbuilding yard, canal or road haulage was probaby used.  Brown Lenox backed onto the Glamorgan Canal. and rail outlet was on to the P,C,&N railway.

Edited July 8, 2022 by The Johnster

[Fat Controller]

4 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

They made the anchor chains for many of the famous liners and battleships there, and on an occasion in a pub up there when a local was boasting about this I felt the need to comment 'aye, you made the chains for the Bismark as well, but you don't go on about that, do you?', not true of course but it brought the house down!

 

You wouldn't get much of a really big ship's anchor chain in a railway wagon before it was overloaded, so unless the links were connected at the shipbuilding yard, canal or road haulage was probaby used.  Brown Lenox backed onto the Glamorgan Canal. and rail outlet was on to the P,C,&N railway.

There were a few specialised wagons that could carry this sort of load; the Armour Plate wagons, which I believe the GWR coded 'Totem'. They were designed to carry plate, and also large castings. They were still working out of Dowlais in the late 1970s.

 

[D9020 Nimbus]

Given the West Midlands location, I would be surprised if you didn’t find details of this in one of Bob Essery's books on the subject of freight operation.

[C126]

Many thanks to you for all your answers.  @Siberian Snooper 's mention of modern loading practices is good to learn that not everything is dumped on a pallet and smothered invisibly in plastic.  I am not sure what else chains could be used for in industry as a 'consumable'.  I remember small chains sold by the foot in my local ironmongers for locking gates, etc., on cardboard rolls, but for larger sizes, apart from supplying crane manufacturers and shipping I am short of ideas.  Which is a shame, because I thought it would look good in an OBA or 'Tube'. 🙂  Thanks again and all good wishes.

[Miss Prism]

Great pic in GW wagon bible (Atkins et al) of a 4-plank open being filled (probably overfilled) with some very chunky chain.

[Siberian Snooper]

I would say that, that picture is posed, due to there being 3 sections of chain, one in the wagon and a pile either side of the door, there is also a shackle leant against the door and an odd fitting infront of the door. The link to the left on the door is a swivel link, which suggests to me that the chain may be destined for a mooring bouy or some sort of heavy lift.

 

 

[KeithHC]

Being very naughty surely they are carried by SpeedLink………………..

 

Its ok I have my hat and coat…………

 

Keith

[Michael Hodgson]

I suppose it was a job for a Top Link crew.

[C126]

As we recover from @KeithHC and @Michael Hodgson 's puns, I will just mention that the manufacturer listed in the Brighton Area 1972 Telephone Directory - which has turned into a bible of industries and wagon-loads for me - is not based in Sussex at all as I thought, but paid for an out-of-area Yellow Pages listing: Griff Chains, Ltd., of Dudley.  I am very pleased to see they are still trading.  Long may they continue.

 

 

Edited July 9, 2022 by C126
Clarification.

[JeremyC]

A point to note is that a ships anchor chain is not made in one piece, but is of separate lengths which are then joined using a Kenter Shackle. The length of each section is a shackle which is 15 fathoms (90 feet).

The link below gives more information than you're ever likely to need 😀

https://dieselship.com/marine-technical-articles/ship-safety-and-naval-architecture/ship-anchor-complete-information/#:~:text=A shackle is a unit,standard length of a chain .

(Small note of interest. The ship end of the chain is the bitter end, hence the saying 'to the bitter end' for something that has gone all the way.)

Edited July 10, 2022 by JeremyC
Spelling

[Compound2632]

On 10/07/2022 at 09:47, JeremyC said:

A point to note is that a ships anchor chain is not made in one piece, but is of separate lengths which are then joined using a Kenter Shackle. The length of each section is a shackle which is 15 fathoms (90 feet).

The link below gives more information than you're ever likely to need 😀

https://dieselship.com/marine-technical-articles/ship-safety-and-naval-architecture/ship-anchor-complete-information/#:~:text=A shackle is a unit,standard length of a chain .

(Small note of interest. The ship end of the chain is the bitter end, hence the saying 'to the bitter end' for something that has gone all the way.)

 

So what is the weight range for 15 fathoms of chain? One could imagine it being laid out over several bolster wagons.

[Compound2632]

Taking the OP's chain with links a scale 7.5" long, and assuming the links are made of steel with 1.5" diameter cross-section, and overall width 5", and taking a typical value for the density of steel of 7,700 kg/m3, I get a mass of 5.5 kg per link and 240 links per shackle, a total mass of 1,330 kg or 1.3 imperial tons per shackle. So any old open wagon will do. 

 

Imagining a beefier chain, say 18" links, 10" wide and 3" diameter (no idea if those are realistic dimensions) gives 53 kg per link, 90 links per shackle, total 4.7 tons.

 

I'm overloading an ordinary wagon at 36" x 20" links, 6" diameter - 45 links per shackle, 19 tons. 

 

This is all assuming plain links; fancier shapes might have more material per link, I suppose.

Edited July 12, 2022 by Compound2632
EDIT: error in spreadsheet calculation corrected.

[JeremyC]

From what I can find:

Titanic's anchor links were 33 inches long made from 3 inch dia bar (one source give 3inch another 6inch) and each link weighed 175 pounds.

For 3 inch diameter material I reckon there were approximately 40 links in each shackle (90 ft) (allowing for the links being linked and not laid end to end)

By that each shackle weighed  7000 pounds or about 3.1 imperial tons or just over 3.2 metric tonnes.

For 6 inch diameter material I reckon there were approximately 44 links in each shackle (90 ft)

By that each shackle weighed  7700 pounds or about 3.4 imperial tons or just over 3.5 metric tonnes.

Edited July 12, 2022 by JeremyC
Corrected link number calculation

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, JeremyC said:

From what I can find:

 

Putting those numbers into my little spreadsheet, I get about the same answer for 3" diameter, if I set the link width to 9", but I can't replicate your result for 6" diameter, which needs the links at least 18" wide, which would make each link about 830 lb and a shackle 19 tons. 

Shackle of chain weight calculator.xlsx

[br2975]

Initially, anchors and chains made by Messrs Brown, Lenox at their Newbridge / Ynysangharad Works, Pontypridd would have been moved from the company's own dock, by narrow boats along the Glamorganshire Canal to the Sea Lock Pound in Cardiff where they were unloaded for 'testing' at the Lloyd's Bute Proving House.

.

This continued until at least World War 1.

.

There are published photographs, dated 1912,  of Argentine Navy officials, together with a representative of a US shipbuilder, and Brown Lenox posing with chains and anchors for the Argentine warships Moreno and Rivadavia outside the Bute Proving House, which weas railconnected to the Glamorganshire Canal Railway until its closure in 1963 (by which time the railway was owned by Cardiff City Council).

.

The size of the chaIns in the photos makes me think they would be too bulky, and too heavy to be carried in ordinary open wagons of the time.

.

Brian R

[phil_sutters]

 

The size of the chaIns in the photos makes me think they would be too bulky, and too heavy to be carried in ordinary open wagons of the time.

Given the vast range of ship sizes, there must have been chains in a variety of sizes, some of which could have travelled by rail, I would have thought. 

[br2975]

1 hour ago, phil_sutters said:

 

The size of the chaIns in the photos makes me think they would be too bulky, and too heavy to be carried in ordinary open wagons of the time.

Given the vast range of ship sizes, there must have been chains in a variety of sizes, some of which could have travelled by rail, I would have thought. 

.

The large chains to which I referred, appear in the published work "The Glamorganshire & Aberdare Canals - Vol.2" and which I cannot (will not) reprodue here for copyright reasons,.

[phil_sutters]

11 hours ago, br2975 said:

.

The large chains to which I referred, appear in the published work "The Glamorganshire & Aberdare Canals - Vol.2" and which I cannot (will not) reprodue here for copyright reasons,.

I was thinking in general terms, rather than those you specifically referred to. Most of this thread has concentrated on the larger end of the scale, but there could have been some traffic in less weighty types of chain.