STROOD STEEL WORKS, KENT, how was pig iron delivered there?

[fulton]

I am building a model, in 4mm EM, of part of the Aveling and Porter, Invicta Engineering works, circ. 1920, with its connection to the SECR, North Kent Line, including the rail connected Strood Steel Works, which opened in 1902, closing circ. 1923, was equipped with a single  10ton Siemens-Martin gas fired furnace, business was to produce steel castings, including wheel centres to the SECR. How would the raw pig iron be transported there? which wagon type? the works was also served by water, having a wharf on Pelican Creek and Janes' Creek off the River Medway above the bridges so only barges. Plan below from The National Library of Scotland.

[Fat Controller]

If it was delivered by rail, then it would be in specialist Pig Iron wagons. These were of between one and three planks in height, and the sides were generally fixed. They would have heavier-duty journals than most wagons of equivalent size. In more recent times, 'Plate' wagons were used. 

[Compound2632]

On 10/07/2022 at 18:31, Fat Controller said:

If it was delivered by rail, then it would be in specialist Pig Iron wagons. These were of between one and three planks in height, and the sides were generally fixed. They would have heavier-duty journals than most wagons of equivalent size. In more recent times, 'Plate' wagons were used. 

 

Not necessarily specialist wagons. The Midland had none such; neither had the LNWR, nor, I think, the Great Weatern, at least at the period of interest. They used their standard low-sided open wagons for pig iron traffic. Being low-sided, there was no great danger of exceeding the 8, 6, or 8/9 ton capacity, respectively.

Edited July 12, 2022 by Compound2632

[jim.snowdon]

On 10/07/2022 at 18:31, Fat Controller said:

If it was delivered by rail, then it would be in specialist Pig Iron wagons. These were of between one and three planks in height, and the sides were generally fixed. They would have heavier-duty journals than most wagons of equivalent size. In more recent times, 'Plate' wagons were used. 

As I understand it, the only specialised wagons for pig iron (and I can really only think of BR) were designed for carrying hot pig iron, ie fresh from casting (and probably destined for shipment straight to a steel making plant).

 

Deliveries of pig iron to industrial users would have been cold, so any wagon of appropriate size would have done, in practice any of the 1-3 plank wagons that were ubiquitous in the pre-Grouping era.

[fulton]

Thank you for responses, have found online an ordinary open wagon being loaded, via a chute, with pigs, so the load would just be a random pile, most of my photographic information comes from Britain from Above, after the rail connection had gone, the works feature in the corner of a number of shots. I think that water transport would have played a large part, while only barges could reach the works, Strood Dock is only a short distance away, down stream, for larger ships. I live by what was Strood Dock and walk pass the steel works site, now Hobbycraft, each time I go shopping.

Edited July 13, 2022 by fulton
correction

[Compound2632]

7 hours ago, jim.snowdon said:

As I understand it, the only specialised wagons for pig iron (and I can really only think of BR) were designed for carrying hot pig iron, ie fresh from casting (and probably destined for shipment straight to a steel making plant).

 

Deliveries of pig iron to industrial users would have been cold, so any wagon of appropriate size would have done, in practice any of the 1-3 plank wagons that were ubiquitous in the pre-Grouping era.

 

On the other hand, the Caledonian and I think North British did have pig iron wagons - higher-capacity (by weight) single-plank wagons. There's a photo around of a Caledonian wagon being loaded by hand.

 

One should also be aware of the form taken by pig iron in the OP's period, generally rough-cast bars about 3 ft long by 3 - 4 in square. There have been a couple of discussions about pig iron transport on here, though they may currently be lacking their photos. One such starts here and goes on for several pages, with diversions:

 

[eastwestdivide]

1 hour ago, fulton said:

I live by what was Strood Dock...

Presumably you've had a look in the Medway archives in the old library in Bryant Road? Fair bit of ancient printed info in there and helpful staff. I grew up there and still have links to the area, so it'll be interesting to see your model. Passed the site most days on the way to school, but it was Winget by then.

Gratuitous link to archive photo of Winget offices:

https://apps.medway.gov.uk/apps/medwayimages/details.asp?pg=58&pga=346&searchtype=&search=strood  

[fulton]

1 hour ago, eastwestdivide said:

Presumably you've had a look in the Medway archives in the old library in Bryant Road? Fair bit of ancient printed info in there and helpful staff. I grew up there and still have links to the area, so it'll be interesting to see your model. Passed the site most days on the way to school, 

Yes have visited, have always lived in the Medway Towns, for my sins I was a Temple boy, have to be careful with Aveling and Porter works photos, have seen some taken after the move to Grantham, being Aveling Barford, but credited to be at Strood.

[fulton]

13 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

On the other hand, the Caledonian and I think North British did have pig iron wagons - higher-capacity (by weight) single-plank wagons. There's a photo around of a Caledonian wagon being loaded by hand.

 

Found the photo, unless it is a different one, of a Caledonian pig iron wagon being unloaded by hand, they are dropping the pigs on a casting to break them, this could make a nice scene outside my model, another photo shows a stockpile of pigs which would also add interest.

[Wickham Green too]

On 13/07/2022 at 09:12, eastwestdivide said:

Gratuitous link to archive photo of Winget offices:

https://apps.medway.gov.uk/apps/medwayimages/details.asp?pg=58&pga=346&searchtype=&search=strood  

Aveling and WHO ??!? ..... c'mon Medway Archives - you can do better than that ! ( I hope )

[jim.snowdon]

On 13/07/2022 at 07:51, Compound2632 said:

On the other hand, the Caledonian and I think North British did have pig iron wagons - higher-capacity (by weight) single-plank wagons.

Indeed, and both served the concentration of heavy industries around Glasgow, both iron and steel making and manufacturing. The NB wagons were nothing special, other than progressing from 8 to 14 and finally 20 ton capacity. It's largely a case of cast iron being so dense that the ordinary 8 ton 1-plank wagon was full to capacity before it was physically full, which does pose issues about avoiding movement of the load in transit and consequent damage to the wagon.

[billbedford]

On 10/07/2022 at 17:08, fulton said:

How would the raw pig iron be transported there? which wagon type? the works was also served by water, having a wharf on Pelican Creek and Janes' Creek off the River Medway above the bridges so only barges. 

 

It would help if you know where the iron came from. 

[fulton]

21 hours ago, billbedford said:

 

It would help if you know where the iron came from. 

Yes it would, could even be imported by sea, being transloaded to barges or rail for final delivery

[billbedford]

In the 1920s the average coaster was about the same size as a Thames sailing barge, The limitation would whether the ship could negotiate the bridges. Using a sea-bourn delivery would restrict the supplier to with access to deepish water. 

[fulton]

8 hours ago, billbedford said:

In the 1920s the average coaster was about the same size as a Thames sailing barge, The limitation would whether the ship could negotiate the bridges. Using a sea-bourn delivery would restrict the supplier to with access to deepish water. 

Small coasters and sailing barges routinely went above the Rochester bridges, sailing barges dropping their gear, motor barges often having a collapsible wheel house, the state of tide had to be carefully judged as at low tide you can almost wade across under the bridges and at high tide there is little air draught, they would normally go with the tide, even today the timber ships  using Frindsbury wharfs, near me, arrive on the tide and leave with the tide. Photos, with permission, from "Rochester Sailing Barges of the Victorian Era" by Bob Childs. Dated 1901, barges moored above the bridges, off Janes' Creek, SECR viaduct and Invicta Engineering Works in background, the steel works is beyond the viaduct. Second photo of the SHIELD, undated, moored just outside Janes' Creek.

Edited July 18, 2022 by fulton
correction

[fulton]

My model of barge UVW, gear down, about to go under the SECR viaduct to enter Palican Creek, for Strood Steel Works, with pig iron? Would be coming in on the tide, relying on momentum and the tide to carry her through, the oars are for guidance and poling in the mud. The gear would have to be raised again for unloading.

Edited July 18, 2022 by fulton
added more

[Cwmtwrch]

Steel comes in a wide variety of types and alloys, depending on purpose, often made to strict quality control limitations. I don't think a 10 ton gas fired furnace is intended for steel making, it's too small. I would suggest it's just for melting steel slab or bar made elsewhere, for casting purposes. This would mean they could order in whatever standard or type of steel was required for each job.

[billbedford]

1 hour ago, fulton said:

My model of barge UVW, gear down, about to go under the SECR viaduct to enter Palican Creek, for Strood Steel Works, with pig iron? Would be coming in on the tide, relying on momentum and the tide to carry her through, the oars are for guidance and poling in the mud. The gear would have to be raised again for unloading.

 

That looks good. 

The problem is that, AFAIK, there were no blast furnaces in the London area that would be a source for the pig iron. The nearest sources would be; East Moors in Cardiff, Redcar on the Tees and possibly Lysaght's in Scunthorpe. The later was known to ship pigs by sea in the 30s but there's no record from earlier. 

 

The closest rail connected sources found be found in S. Wales, Nottinghamshire, Scunthorpe ands possibly the West Midlands*. 

 

* Maybe Steph could suggest iron works connected to the LNWR?

 

[fulton]

1 hour ago, Cwmtwrch said:

Steel comes in a wide variety of types and alloys, depending on purpose, often made to strict quality control limitations. I don't think a 10 ton gas fired furnace is intended for steel making, it's too small. I would suggest it's just for melting steel slab or bar made elsewhere, for casting purposes. This would mean they could order in whatever standard or type of steel was required for each job.

The Steel Works opened in 1901 as a joint venture with Vickers, to manufacture steel castings, which would fit in with the above, bring steel in rather than pig iron, so still a good traffic either by rail or barge.

[fulton]

While I am posting, photo of Aveling and Porter locomotive, on my under construction Janes' Creek, unpowered EM model based around an HO scale Fowler Plough engine and Blue Circle wheels both from Shapeways, not all strictly correct but the Fowler has the nicest motion and gearing I have seen.

[2251]

23 hours ago, billbedford said:

 

That looks good. 

The problem is that, AFAIK, there were no blast furnaces in the London area that would be a source for the pig iron. The nearest sources would be; East Moors in Cardiff, Redcar on the Tees and possibly Lysaght's in Scunthorpe. The later was known to ship pigs by sea in the 30s but there's no record from earlier. 

 

The closest rail connected sources found be found in S. Wales, Nottinghamshire, Scunthorpe ands possibly the West Midlands*. 

 

* Maybe Steph could suggest iron works connected to the LNWR?

 

Between the closure of the last of the Wealden blast furnaces early in the nineteenth century and the opening of the Ford operation between the wars, I cannot think of a single blast furnace in south-eastern England.  

[Fat Controller]

On 12/07/2022 at 23:36, jim.snowdon said:

As I understand it, the only specialised wagons for pig iron (and I can really only think of BR) were designed for carrying hot pig iron, ie fresh from casting (and probably destined for shipment straight to a steel making plant).

 

Deliveries of pig iron to industrial users would have been cold, so any wagon of appropriate size would have done, in practice any of the 1-3 plank wagons that were ubiquitous in the pre-Grouping era.

BR did build several types with wooden floors (so unsuitable for hot pig). Most were converted to coil wagons fairly quickly, and such pig traffic that remained went over to 22t Plate wagons.

Edited July 19, 2022 by Fat Controller

[fulton]

This photo has come from a friends collection, interior of the steel works, I presume that is the furnace on the left, if so, then we are looking away from Janes' Creek with Pelican Creek to the left, as a 1920 aerial photo shows chimneys on that side. Seems to confirm this is a steel casting works, rather than a steel manufacture works, so no pig iron, but deliveries either by rail or barge of steel, for casting, looks, to me, like wheels being cast.

[bigherb]

Just looks like a steel foundry to me.