Kaminecke-Bahn (Die Museumsbahn)

[47606odin]

Well, as some of you know, I am 3/4 of the way through building Hither Green in O gauge, and recently bought some German Z gauge to play with, well, having had a great time with the Z gauge, and watching YouTube videos of German steam diesels and electrics, my mind started wandering, and so I now have a Lenz V100 and 2 wagons suddenly on route to my house.

 

I must be mad!

 

well we shall see what they are like when they get here and I can compare the quality to my British O gauge stock, but I was really tempted by the V60 with side rods etc, but not available at the moment. 
 

now, as stated in my Z scale thread, I know nothing of German railways or geography, so if I build a layout, it may be far from correct LOL.

 

I don’t know where this thread will go, or whether I get buried by the wife when she sees the credit card bill and there’ll be no post number 2, who knows. 
 

so if anyone has hints or tips, let me know, oh, and what period exactly is era 3 in the Lenz scheme of things?

Edited January 7 by 47606odin

[rekoboy]

Epoche 3 is the post WW2 period from 1945 to 1970 - in other words, an era when there was still a good deal of steam traction to be seen in West and East Germany. In terms of diesels, both the Bundesbahn (West) and Reichsbahn (East) referred to locos under the old classification with a V prefixing the class number (for Verbrennungsmotor -internal combustion engine). Following the the introduction of computerized numbering schemes the V was replaced by the Bundesbahn with a 2 and by the Reichsbahn with a 1 (confusingly). So, the V100 centre-cab diesels of similar design in the West became 211, and in the East 110.

Edited July 26, 2022 by rekoboy

[47606odin]

6 minutes ago, rekoboy said:

Epoche 3 is the post WW2 period from 1945 to 1970 - in other words, an era when there was still a good deal of steam traction to be seen in West and East Germany.

thank you. That covers a large era

[Allegheny1600]

Hi Odin,

A few years ago now, I was a proud owner of virtually the entire Lenz 0 scale range - it was a small range in those days! I had the V100, V36 and Kof plus wagons, coaches and other maker’s stuff.

 I can honestly say that I think you’ll like it!

The only reason I got rid of it all was because I like to swap and change (from era I to era VI and back again, US, British and all sorts) and I’m not a millionaire so this was much easier in H0 than in 0 scale.

 I still have a friend who got into German 0 scale due to seeing mine (!) and what is available now is quite amazing so I will be very interested to see how you feel it compares to, presumably, British RTR in 0.

I understand the Lenz track is a bit toylike but everything else is first class.

Cheers,

 John 

[47606odin]

I have bitten the bullet and reserved a V60. There is one secondhand on eBay, but it actually works out cheaper to buy one new and have it shipped from https://www.modellbahnshop-lippe.com/ so that’s where I’ll be shopping from in future if I progress to an actual layout 

[jmh67]

On 26/07/2022 at 14:49, 47606odin said:

That covers a large era

You can narrow it down a bit, depending on the rolling stock used. Diesel locomotives turned up on DB tracks in sizeable numbers only from the mid-1950s on, DR followed about five years later. The DB emblem ("Keks" = "cookie") came into use in 1956. In the same year, the old first and second class carriages became the new first class, and old third became second class. So, if you run a diesel locomotive and rebuilt carriages, you're likely to model in Epoch IIIb - which is still about 15 years. But with the V 100 coming into use from about 1961 on, that narrows it down further to the 1960s. Furthermore, DB locomotives got their computer numbers in 1968, hence it is only a timespan of about seven years to worry about.

 

Martin

[47606odin]

Thanks Martin. Very informative. 60’s it is then

[bbishop]

..... and congratulations!  I started in Spur Null as a sideline for O Gauge LSWR / SR / BR modelling - and now I'm hooked.

 

I've looked at your model of Hither Green (and the real thing as I live in Grove Park) and you seem to be biased towards freight.  So Lenz have a good range, and there are also Schnellenkamf, Brawa * and MBW.   The manufacturers do limited runs so you may have to source second hand.  Beware that Spur Null can be either 1:45 (new) or 1:43.5 (old) - the above manufacturers all use the new scale.   * Brawa have slightly different couplings, but easy to change to Lenz.  A decent 2nd hand supplier is lokschuppenhagenhaspe.de

 

If you are tempted to passenger stock, then the Lenz Umbauwagen will suit, both 8 wheel and 6 wheel (although the latter were always run as pairs).

 

Lenz track is manufactured by Peco.  I suggest you compare Lenz with native Peco flatbottom, then base your decision on accuracy and price.  Be aware that German railways were (and are) not homogeneous - wood and stucco in the south, brick in the north; different trackplans; even different stock, although by 1960 that was just elderly steam classes.

 

Resources.  Have a look at the Spur Null Magazin website, in German but deepl is a very good translation tool.  Tim Hale did a very good English language blog on German railways but I couldn't find it yesterday (knowing Tim, he has taken down the site).  Then there is here.  Bill

[Gordonwis]

On 26/07/2022 at 11:01, 47606odin said:

Well, as some of you know, I am 3/4 of the way through building Hither Green in O gauge, and recently bought some German Z gauge to play with, well, having had a great time with the Z gauge, and watching YouTube videos of German steam diesels and electrics, my mind started wandering, and so I now have a Lenz V100 and 2 wagons suddenly on route to my house.

 

 

well we shall see what they are like when they get here and I can compare the quality to my British O gauge stock, but I was really tempted by the V60 with side rods etc, but not available at the moment. 

 

so if anyone has hints or tips, let me know, oh, and what period exactly is era 3 in the Lenz scheme of things?

 

 

Epoch III covers 1945 - 1970, ie post WWII and pre (mostly) UIC computerised numbering

Official MOROP Epochs for Germany:

https://mobadaten.info/wiki/MOROP_NEM_806D_Eisenbahn-Epochen_in_Deutschland

 

Epoch IIIb covers the era when the V100 diesel appeared, ie 1956 - 1970

 

Apart from prototypes and pre-production, most of the standard DB diesel classes (including the V60 shunter) were introduced  in bulk in the early 1960s and ran with non computer numbers until 1969, so a V100 should not run on a layout based after 1970 (although the number is hardly visible in Z scale...)

[47606odin]

Of course, if I run a museum, then I can run anything lol 

[47606odin]

23 hours ago, bbishop said:

..... and congratulations!  I started in Spur Null as a sideline for O Gauge LSWR / SR / BR modelling - and now I'm hooked.

 

I've looked at your model of Hither Green (and the real thing as I live in Grove Park) and you seem to be biased towards freight.  So Lenz have a good range, and there are also Schnellenkamf, Brawa * and MBW.   The manufacturers do limited runs so you may have to source second hand.  Beware that Spur Null can be either 1:45 (new) or 1:43.5 (old) - the above manufacturers all use the new scale.   * Brawa have slightly different couplings, but easy to change to Lenz.  A decent 2nd hand supplier is lokschuppenhagenhaspe.de

 

If you are tempted to passenger stock, then the Lenz Umbauwagen will suit, both 8 wheel and 6 wheel (although the latter were always run as pairs).

 

Lenz track is manufactured by Peco.  I suggest you compare Lenz with native Peco flatbottom, then base your decision on accuracy and price.  Be aware that German railways were (and are) not homogeneous - wood and stucco in the south, brick in the north; different trackplans; even different stock, although by 1960 that was just elderly steam classes.

 

Resources.  Have a look at the Spur Null Magazin website, in German but deepl is a very good translation tool.  Tim Hale did a very good English language blog on German railways but I couldn't find it yesterday (knowing Tim, he has taken down the site).  Then there is here.  Bill

i wonder why the manufacturer moved from 1:43.5 to 1:45. Does it make much difference? The limited runs of rolling stock seems to be a common thing nowadays, rather than a steady flow of production. I’d like a little twin silo wagon, but can’t find any anywhere, at least on a website I’d trust. 
 

I guess I had better start considering what layout type I’ll build, be it a small shed type layout like hither green, or perhaps a quayside. Or maybe outside, but it gets rather hot here in Western Australia. And then Id have to consider a name for it. 

[47606odin]

Well, I must say I’m impressed with what you get for your money 

 

[47606odin]

Well, I have taken a look, and I like it

 

 

[Keith Addenbrooke]

On 27/07/2022 at 05:25, 47606odin said:

I have bitten the bullet and reserved a V60. There is one secondhand on eBay, but it actually works out cheaper to buy one new and have it shipped from https://www.modellbahnshop-lippe.com/ so that’s where I’ll be shopping from in future if I progress to an actual layout 

In my experience it’s the buying / ordering of the second locomotive that is significant - up to that point an idea can be classed as a novelty, but now you have a relief engine you’ll be insured against Loco failure / maintenance and it can start to feel like you’re running a small railway.  Having watched the V100 video I can see why you’re impressed too.

 

My problem is I’ve realised I’m trying to juggle / fund too many live projects at the same time.  Hopefully you don’t have that issue.  Looking forward to seeing more (even if it is the Z Gauge I’m most interested in), Keith.

Edited August 6, 2022 by Keith Addenbrooke

[47606odin]

2 hours ago, Keith Addenbrooke said:

In my experience it’s the buying / ordering of the second locomotive that is significant - up to that point an idea can be classed as a novelty, but now you have a relief engine you’ll be insured against Loco failure / maintenance and it can start to feel like you’re running a small railway.  Having watched the V100 video I can see why you’re impressed too.

 

My problem is I’ve realised I’m trying to juggle / fund too many live projects at the same time.  Hopefully you don’t have that issue.  Looking forward to seeing more (even if it is the Z Gauge I’m most interested in), Keith.

I think Hither Green will be my last British layout for a while, given my stash of Z gauge and now the V100. We can see where whimsy takes me. The boss has given me authority for wood next pay day, so I can build up the Z base board

[47606odin]

Had a tinker to see how the loco runs on peco set track. 
 

 

Seems to work okay, so ordered a bit more track so I can play. Oh, and a 6 wheel conversion baggage car to see how that works on the tighter curves

[bbishop]

Track!  British and continental track is different, Britain uses clips whilst Germany used bolts.  So Lenz track (bolts) is made by Peco, exported to Germany and if necessary imported back again!  But on cost grounds, I'm using Peco code 143 track (clips) on Blindheim.  Not too easy to spot the difference, but bullhead track is glaringly wrong.

 

Six wheel conversion baggage car?  Do you mean an Umbauwagen?  Eyeballing Google Translate will tell you this is a rebuilt carriage and is actually a new steel body on a recycled chassis.  Sorry, I have some bad news for you.  They were a tad unstable at speed so always ran as close coupled pairs, so you have another Wagen to purchase.  Bill

[47606odin]

2 hours ago, bbishop said:

Track!  British and continental track is different, Britain uses clips whilst Germany used bolts.  So Lenz track (bolts) is made by Peco, exported to Germany and if necessary imported back again!  But on cost grounds, I'm using Peco code 143 track (clips) on Blindheim.  Not too easy to spot the difference, but bullhead track is glaringly wrong.

 

Six wheel conversion baggage car?  Do you mean an Umbauwagen?  Eyeballing Google Translate will tell you this is a rebuilt carriage and is actually a new steel body on a recycled chassis.  Sorry, I have some bad news for you.  They were a tad unstable at speed so always ran as close coupled pairs, so you have another Wagen to purchase.  Bill

hi Bill. Yes, I am aware the British bullhead track is incorrect for modelling a German Layout, but is suitable for me to use to play with in the interim. Should a scenic layout get built then I will be using flat bottom track. Regarding conversion car, that is the description on the website and I suspected it was a rebodied car. I will get another to run with it as a pair, but at this moment, one will have to do. Regards, Ian

[F-UnitMad]

A few years ago now I used Peco O bullhead track on a US outline layout that attended a couple of exhibitions as well - one that was a 'special interest' US only show at that - and no one commented or batted an eyelid at it.

[F-UnitMad]

On 06/08/2022 at 21:22, Keith Addenbrooke said:

In my experience it’s the buying / ordering of the second locomotive that is significant ...

I like that!! Owning one loco in a new scale is like sitting at the top of the slide, still holding on to the handrail. Buying a second loco is letting go and beginning the journey down the Slippery Slope.... 🤣😉👍

[Keith Addenbrooke]

1 hour ago, F-UnitMad said:

I like that!! Owning one loco in a new scale is like sitting at the top of the slide, still holding on to the handrail. Buying a second loco is letting go and beginning the journey down the Slippery Slope.... 🤣😉👍

 

Thank you.  I’ve not gone for O-scale like Ian @47606odin, but after also watching YouTube videos of German trains while looking into Z Gauge and TT, I’ve now ordered a good-looking bargain N Scale V200 to go with the BR 01 class I’ve acquired - which will mean there will soon be two 1960s (Epoche IIIb) DB N Scale locomotives in my stock box as well.  It wasn’t planned, it just kind of happened (honest, Guv!)

 

I’ll keep following here as I’m sure I’ll learn a lot about German railways of the period…back to the O gauge!

 

Keith.

Edited August 10, 2022 by Keith Addenbrooke

[bbishop]

There was a question earlier concerning, why 1 to 45?

 

Over a period of time, British O Gauge settled on a scale of 1:43.5 and a finescale gauge of 32mm.  This was copied by the continent, but American O Gauge adopted 1:48.  

Of course the finescale standards are better than the Greenly affected OO standards, but are not exact so our scale seven colleagues widened the gauge to 33mm.  

In Germany the popular scales were HO and 1, whilst O was practically moribund and the preserve of expensive brass models.  However it was the favourite scale of Bernd Lenz, who decided some 15 years ago to invest his DCC profits in a resurrection.  It was Bernd's decision to resolve the scale / gauge conundrum by adopting 1:45, which is pretty well exact.

There is enough German 1:43.5 around to satisfy collectors, but most people now model to 1:45.  The people with the most problems are probably are modellers of other continental prototypes, who retained 1:43.5 but have issues running German stock of 1:45 - typically reparations post WW1 and WW2.  As a rough guide it can be obvious if models of the same prototype are side by side, but otherwise .....

Bill

[Erichill16]

I’ve been left a Kiss BR 50 and though I don’t model o gauge I do have the opportunity to run the loco on someone else’s (British) layout. I am wondering about scale.

Kiss, I believe is 1:43 and Lenz  is 1:45. Am I correct in thinking Brawa is 1:43?
I would like to buy a few wagons to go with it but would rather get the scale right.

Robert

[47606odin]

12 hours ago, bbishop said:

I have some bad news for you.  They were a tad unstable at speed so always ran as close coupled pairs, so you have another Wagen to purchase

i have purchased a second coach, accidentally not the one I wanted, browsing the variations I clicked on the 2nd class coach not the 1st-2nd class one. Never mind, any passengers I have will have to slum it lol. I could have done with more profits from 1st class ticket sales as my credit card is saying I’ve spent too much

[bbishop]

1 hour ago, Erichill16 said:

I’ve been left a Kiss BR 50 and though I don’t model o gauge I do have the opportunity to run the loco on someone else’s (British) layout. I am wondering about scale.

Kiss, I believe is 1:43 and Lenz  is 1:45. Am I correct in thinking Brawa is 1:43?
I would like to buy a few wagons to go with it but would rather get the scale right.

Robert

Robert, Brawa is 1:45.  Don't worry about 1:45 wagons, no-one will spot the variance.  Bill