Birkenhead Woodside 1958-1963

[bécasse]

Some trains traversed all three sides of that triangle at Chester. I remember travelling to Liverpool Lime Street from London one Sunday in the mid-1970s with the intention of catching the afternoon Steam Packet to the Isle of Man, and I could see from the public book that it was booked to take a long while from Crewe to Liverpool so obviously followed a diversion.

 

At Crewe, a diesel replaced the electric loco and we set off towards Chester where we took the east-north side of the triangle and stopped, reversed back round the north-west curve, and finally ran forward over the west-east curve taking the Helsby line and finally the Frodsham-Runcorn line back on to the habitual route. My recollection is that, although we twice passed through Chester station, we didn't stop there.

[Pacific231G]

On 25/08/2022 at 18:45, DCB said:

The Track plan looks like Minories on steroids.  Birkenhead (That's GWR Speak for Liverpool) Is a great location except the long distance passenger trains reversed at Chester and so were mainly worked by tank locos, Cheltenham St James, another of the GWR's rare main line terminus's had the same problem.   The GW just didn't go in for Termini like other railways, it had a posh one at Paddington from which trains really only went to  main line termini at Swansea, (Plymouth Millbay?)   and Weymouth. without an intermediate engine change.  The reason was social. Oop North they had a lot of illiterate passengers and before Tannoys etc it was essential that as far as possible each destination or route had its own platform,  Down South the illiterate folk couldn't afford to travel, and the GWR didn't readily waste money on platforms, even Reading had to make do with just one originally.    Goods trains and the occasional specials like 4079 and 7029 ran via the south to North West curve at Chester avoiding the station.  It goes with the GWR territory, medium size termini were like hens teeth.

 

I love the idea that any Victorian railway would have designed its stations to help their third class passengers get safely to their correct trains. The idea of a single platform serving trains in both directions as at Reading (and elsewhere) soon disappeared, though one station was long notorious for only having one principal platform for both up and down through trains and that, until 2011, was Cambridge.

 

I'm not sure that the GWR really did have many fewer main line termini than any other railway and that rather depends on how you define a main line terminus. The trouble with that is that the GWR's own perception of which of its lines were main did vary over time with Kingswear an obvious example.

If your definition is a terminus served by a double track line then you've also got Birmingham Moor Street, Newquay (?), and even Windsor & Eaton. Plymouth Millbay was the GWR's main station in Plymouth for a long time with trains going on to Cornwall reversing but, even after North Road was opened, a lot of "principal trains" still terminated there until it closed in 1941 (in order to be used for goods after bombing destroyed the adjoining goods station) . Penzance was obviously a main line terminus, even if it was a bit too far for GWR locos to make it from Paddington in one go,  but it started life as the end of a single track line.  Also don't forget Fishguard Harbour even though the tracks continued to the breakwater (rather as they did at  Folklestone)

 

Intriguingly the GWR's orginal station at Oxford was a terminus (near Folly Bridge) and it's entertaining to think how that might have turned out if the GWR etc. hadn't been allowed  to build its through line for Birmingham and Worcester qute so close to the city. I think Oxford was far too important to have been served-following the GWR's usual habit with towns it missed- by an  "Oxford Road Station"  so a terminus it may well have remained.  

It's interesting to see in the GWR's 1902 timetable that the principal train on the Birknehead line are shown as terminating at Liverpool Landing Stage (just as services are shown for Dartmouth with no mention in either case of transferring to a ferry)

Edited August 26, 2022 by Pacific231G

[DCB]

Penzance to Paddington was the longest through loco working in the UK until the LMS pulled a stunt with a London Glasgow/ Edinburgh non stop with a Compound and a Royal Scot.   GWR Saints were the usual loco, working Exeter -Penzance day 1 , Penzance - Paddington, remanned at Exeter day 2 and Paddington - Exeter on day 3  needing 3 locos to cover the roster.  When they tried Stars they ran out of oil and one broke a con rod through a seized small end which led to redesign of the GWR oil boxes  (See K.J.Cook Swindon Steam) 

If Minories is a small terminus, I can only think of Penzance, (?) Weymouth, Cheltenham St James, Swansea High St, and Paddington itself on the GWR which were terminus's larger than the 3 platform Minories.

[KingEdwardII]

Aberystwyth was a 5 platform terminus, but was the terminus of two separate single track lines.

 

Yours,  Mike.

[Pacific231G]

On 22/08/2022 at 11:29, Roger Sunderland said:

Hi all

in connection with a possible project I’m looking for track plans and timetables for the above. I’m particularly interested in the GWR services, any info on loco types, length and make up of trains would be much appreciated. 
I have done the usual Google searches, plenty of photos, which is good, but not much detail.

Thanks, hope someone can help me out.

Hi Roger

I have a copy of the GWR's 1902 timetable which obviously includes Birkenhead. Would that be of an use to you?

Edited August 31, 2022 by Pacific231G
typo

[Roger Sunderland]

Thanks very much Pacific231G for your offer but I think 1902 is a bit too early for us.

Also thanks to the many contributors to this thread, all so helpful. I’m afraid we couldn’t reach agreement on Thursday to go ahead with this project right now so it will have to go on the back burner at the present time. Essentially we are looking for a project to satisfy both GWR and LMS modellers, with a main line theme.

[Northmoor]

On 27/08/2022 at 00:19, DCB said:

If Minories is a small terminus, I can only think of Penzance, (?) Weymouth, Cheltenham St James, Swansea High St, and Paddington itself on the GWR which were terminus's larger than the 3 platform Minories.

Add Fishguard Harbour to that; it originally had four through platforms, only the landward side one remains (the middle two were filled in around the end of steam I think).

[stovepipe]

Timetable World has the 1944 and 1946 Bradshaws', with a number of tables featuring Woodside services.

 

https://timetableworld.com/timetables.php

[billy_anorak59]

On 28/08/2022 at 11:54, Roger Sunderland said:

I’m afraid we couldn’t reach agreement on Thursday to go ahead with this project right now so it will have to go on the back burner at the present time.

 

That's a shame Roger - I was quite looking forward to following your journey with Woodside! I'm not suprised though, given your members' prediliction for GWR tender engines. Perhaps it will come to fruition eventually, who knows? It would certainly be an eycatcher.

In the meantime, whatever you choose to go for, I wish you well.

[Fat Controller]

On 28/08/2022 at 10:54, Roger Sunderland said:

Thanks very much Pacific231G for your offer but I think 1902 is a bit too early for us.

Also thanks to the many contributors to this thread, all so helpful. I’m afraid we couldn’t reach agreement on Thursday to go ahead with this project right now so it will have to go on the back burner at the present time. Essentially we are looking for a project to satisfy both GWR and LMS modellers, with a main line theme.

How about the North and West? Operated by the GWR and LMS; Jubilees alongside Castles, and 8Fs with 2881s. Through trains from the West Country to Shrewsbury, thence Crewe and Manchester. Ludlow and Leominster are both in Volume 2 of 'A Historical Survey of Selected Great Western Stations' by R H Clark, with track layouts and signal box diagrams.

[Hroth]

On 26/08/2022 at 19:29, Pacific231G said:

It's interesting to see in the GWR's 1902 timetable that the principal train on the Birknehead line are shown as terminating at Liverpool Landing Stage (just as services are shown for Dartmouth with no mention in either case of transferring to a ferry)

 

Well, they did have a goods facility on the Liverpool waterfront, a mere step from the Pierhead!

 

Courtesy: Phil's Workbench

 

I have one that I took a few days ago, but its still in the camera so this is a placeholder until I can get around to downloading it to the computer...

 

Here we go, took it mid-August.  I'm going to leave the one from Phil's Workbench for now, as a comparison.

 

 

Look at the state whoever is responsible for upkeep have let it and its surroundings get in...

 

And Liverpool wants to attract people to the area as a tourist destination.

 

Edited September 3, 2022 by Hroth

[Pacific231G]

Do they want a real station or would an imagined one (in a real location) fit the bill? Also terminus, through station or either?

 

[Roger Sunderland]

Looking more at locations, real ones not just stations, where GWR and LMS could be seen together. The area North of Bristol, places such as Standish Junction in Glos. Looks to have possibilities.

[Pacific231G]

On 31/08/2022 at 16:36, Hroth said:

 

Well, they did have a goods facility on the Liverpool waterfront, a mere step from the Pierhead!

 

Courtesy: Phil's Workbench

 

I have one that I took a few days ago, but its still in the camera so this is a placeholder until I can get around to downloading it to the computer...

 

Here we go, took it mid-August.  I'm going to leave the one from Phil's Workbench for now, as a comparison.

 

 

Look at the state whoever is responsible for upkeep have let it and its surroundings get in...

 

And Liverpool wants to attract people to the area as a tourist destination.

 

A slightly odd position for a railway goods warehouse alongside what was clearly a drydock rather than a commercial quay.