Birkenhead Woodside 1958-1963

[Roger Sunderland]

Hi all

in connection with a possible project I’m looking for track plans and timetables for the above. I’m particularly interested in the GWR services, any info on loco types, length and make up of trains would be much appreciated. 
I have done the usual Google searches, plenty of photos, which is good, but not much detail.

Thanks, hope someone can help me out.

[billy_anorak59]

Roger - some information in the topic here: Birkenhead Woodside - UK Prototype Questions

 

Unfortunately, in the RMWeb hosting transition, some of the images have been (up to now) lost, but you might get someting out of it. I'm currently building an 'inspired by' mini-Woodside (I'm working on the station building at the moment), so I would be interested in seeing if your project is viable, and how you get on with it.

 

I 'may' a have a working timetable somewhere, but with house upheavals, it could take a while for me to find it.

[Steamport Southport]

I've not seen a great deal in print.

 

There is a Middleton Press book which usually has the trackplans and timetables. I've not got that one though so can't confirm what's in it.

 

https://www.middletonpress.co.uk/books/railways/western-main-lines/chester-to-birkenhead.html

 

 

 

Jason

[GordonC]

I did find this too

 

https://yourmodelrailway.net/view_topic.php?id=13691&forum_id=21&page=26

 

 

Edited August 22, 2022 by GordonC

[Steamport Southport]

I take it you've found the Disused Stations page.

 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/b/birkenhead_woodside/index.shtml

 

 

 

Jason

[Roger Sunderland]

Thanks so far to all of you. Gordon C I have seen the layout on Your Model Railway forum but thank you anyway. I’m aware also of the fantastic static model that MMRS did for the Wirral museum- first class.

Steamport, that book will be very useful, many thanks, order on way.

if you do find that timetable Billy Anorak, that would be terrific.

I understand that traffic was limited by the cramped position, length of platforms etc. which meant that GWR Tender locos were infrequent visitors but tanks were used on the Paddington trains, probably as far as Chester. Have found a Backtrack article which is very helpful.

[Tom D]

There is an excellent book titled 'The Birkenhead Railway' by T.B. Maund from RCTS, it has track plans, timetables and loco types for GW and LMS.

 

Good luck with your project,

 

Tom D

[Roger Sunderland]

Many thanks Tom D, just the type of thing I’m after.

[Innerhome]

Signalling record society s-r-s.org.uk has a signalling diagram - unfortunately it's undated - it's listed in the LMS section under joint lines.

[Michael Hodgson]

I have mislaid y copy of Paddington to the Mersey by Hendry & Hendry and can't remember whether or not it included track plans or not, but even if not it may be useful to you.  Out of print but readily available second hand on ebay.

 

Their Historical Survey of Selected LMS stations included detailed plans including signalling of a number of stations on that company's system (including Birkenhead North), but unfortunately Vols 1 to 4 of the GWR books of that series (by other authors) didn't cover Birkenhead Woodside.

[MDP78]

The Michael Clemens Railways website has GWR and BR(W) working timetables:

 

http://www.michaelclemensrailways.co.uk/article/working-timetables/553

 

There are 1947 GWR and 1949 BR(W) timetables that specifically cover the Chester to Birkenhead route.

 

The Chester-Birkenhead route is not included specifically in the Chester District 1959 timetables but they do cover the Shrewsbury to Chester route and it is possible to identify the services that ran over that route and originated or terminated at Birkenhead Woodside, including services that ran to Barmouth or Pwllheli via the Ruabon to Barmouth line. 

 

 

Edited August 22, 2022 by MDP78

[robertcwp]

This book has good photos of Woodside and the trains that served it:

 

https://lightmoor.co.uk/books/birkenhead-railways-a-photographic-history/L9030

[billy_anorak59]

Roger - Firstly, apologies regarding the working timetable; I fear I may have raised your hopes – I had a good look , but it wasn’t where I thought it was. I’ll keep on looking, but I suspect it is boxed up somewhere.

 

I was also going to recommend two of the books mentioned above, but I see I have been beaten to it by Tom D and robertcwp. There is some information in them that might be of use:

For example the 'The Birkenhead Railway' (T.B. Maund) states:

“There were five wide but short platforms with a roadway between Platforms 1 and 2 which were 537 and 534ft long respectively. The limitations of the site restricted the length of trains and, as carriages became longer in the twentieth century, the problems became greater, trains being restricted to seven or eight carriages, and 73ft vehicles were prohibited from some tracks”

 

The ‘Birkenhead Railways – a Photographic History’ book has only recently been published, and there are one or two photographs that show what you are after – there is a nice photo on page 52 showing 41XX 2-6-2T No 4115 on a down train of 6 or 7 Stanier period 3 coaches, and on page 73 a photograph of 4-6-0 No 6844 ‘Penhydd Grange’ facing the tunnel mouth at Woodside itself – so the GWR tender engines did get to the terminus – just not as commonly as the Prairies.

 

Both books are to be recommended, and have a few other useful snippets in them which might help with more of your questions.

 

It might be worth noting that there was a short further discussion on Birkenhead – Chester workings here on RMWeb - back in 2014 - https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/87670-birkenhead-chester/

There is some mention of the locomotive types used on the line, and Tony Wright's comments seem accurate. Personally, I don't recall the GWR types - they had gone by my time. Everything was Stanier or Fairburn 4MT hauled, with a smattering of 'Horwich/Stanier Crab' and 'Black5'. Plus the DMUs of course.

 

Finally, you mentioned the static model that MMRS did for the Wirral Museum earlier – have you seen the articles in the “Modelllers’ Backtrack” from 1992 which describe how they approached the research and building of said model? Very interesting, and in part two ‘Getting it Right’, five tables are shown: The first two show arrivals and departures, the third shows platform allocations, the fourth seems to be joint stores/vans on passenger trains, and the fifth is a working timetable.

The downside for you is that they date to 1925 – 1934, but did BR workings in the late 50s differ so much?

Also of benefit is a track plan sketch (noted as being 'Courtesy of Keith Spencer' - “flyingsignalman” of this parish) and taken from a signalman inspectors notebook. Only a sketch, so not to scale.

If you have not seen the Modellers Backtrack articles they are Vol2 No4 Oct-Nov1992 for Part One, and Vol2 No5 Dec1992-Jan1993 for Part two. If you’re struggling to source them, I could scan the relevant bits if you want? Let me know.

Edited August 23, 2022 by billy_anorak59
Tidy up

[Roger Sunderland]

Thanks to everyone for your help. This forum is just a mine of information and helpful people.

Billy Anorak, thanks so much for this. As a group we are still looking at the possibilities here and if we decide to go ahead I will get back to you. The Backtrack article on the model would be very useful I think. Many thanks for your help set far.

[Steamport Southport]

59 minutes ago, billy_anorak59 said:

Roger - Firstly, apologies regarding the working timetable; I fear I may have raised your hopes – I had a good look , but it wasn’t where I thought it was. I’ll keep on looking, but I suspect it is boxed up somewhere.

 

I was also going to recommend two of the books mentioned above, but I see I have been beaten to it by Tom D and robertcwp. There is some information in them that might be of use:

For example the 'The Birkenhead Railway' (T.B. Maund) states:

“There were five wide but short platforms with a roadway between Platforms 1 and 2 which were 537 and 534ft long respectively. The limitations of the site restricted the length of trains and, as carriages became longer in the twentieth century, the problems became greater, trains being restricted to seven or eight carriages, and 73ft vehicles were prohibited from some tracks”

 

The ‘Birkenhead Railways – a Photographic History’ book has only recently been published, and there are one or two photographs that show what you are after – there is a nice photo on page 52 showing 41XX 2-6-2T No 4115 on a down train of 6 or 7 Stanier period 3 coaches, and on page 73 a photograph of 4-6-0 No 6844 ‘Penhydd Grange’ facing the tunnel mouth at Woodside itself – so the GWR tender engines did get to the terminus – just not as commonly as the Prairies.

 

Both books are to be recommended, and have a few other useful snippets in them which might help with more of your questions.

 

It might be worth noting that there was a short further discussion on Birkenhead – Chester workings here on RMWeb - back in 2014 - https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/87670-birkenhead-chester/

There is some mention of the locomotive types used on the line, and Tony Wright's comments seem accurate. Personally, I don't recall the GWR types - they had gone by my time. Everything was Stanier or Fairburn 4MT hauled, with a smattering of 'Horwich/Stanhttps://www.brdatabase.info/locoqry.php?action=class&id=146006&type=S&page=allocier Crab' and 'Black5'. Plus the DMUs of course.

 

Finally, you mentioned the static model that MMRS did for the Wirral Museum earlier – have you seen the articles in the “Modelllers’ Backtrack” from 1992 which describe how they approached the research and building of said model? Very interesting, and in part two ‘Getting it Right’, five tables are shown: The first two show arrivals and departures, the third shows platform allocations, the fourth seems to be joint stores/vans on passenger trains, and the fifth is a working timetable.

The downside for you is that they date to 1925 – 1934, but did BR workings in the late 50s differ so much?

Also of benefit is a track plan sketch (noted as being 'Courtesy of Keith Spencer' - “flyingsignalman” of this parish) and taken from a signalman inspectors notebook. Only a sketch, so not to scale.

If you have not seen the Modellers Backtrack articles they are Vol2 No4 Oct-Nov1992 for Part One, and Vol2 No5 Dec1992-Jan1993 for Part two. If you’re struggling to source them, I could scan the relevant bits if you want? Let me know.

 

Birkenhead had at least two Granges allocated at one point. I believe they replaced 4-4-0s or 2-6-0s.

 

Quick look suggests 6831, 6841, 6844, 6859 and 6860 at various times.

 

https://www.brdatabase.info/locoqry.php?action=class&id=146006&type=S&page=alloc

 

I would expect anything bigger to have been banned as out of gauge, but 7029 did run a railtour.

 

https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/7029-clun-castle/

 

 

Jason

[Fat Controller]

One feature of the early 1960s seems to have been ex-LNER Thompson stock in 'Internal' WR workings; there's at least one example photographed in 'Heyday of the Westerns' . Presumably, the stock had displaced Mk 1 stock that had been taken for Bournemouth Electrification conversions.

[Siberian Snooper]

For a track diagram I would suggest that you go on the NLS website and look at the 25inch map(s) for Birkenhead.  Sorry I can't provide a link at this time.

 

 

[billy_anorak59]

10 minutes ago, Siberian Snooper said:

For a track diagram I would suggest that you go on the NLS website and look at the 25inch map(s) for Birkenhead. 

 

Does help somewhat, but nothing is shown beneath the train shed, which is solid shaded or hatched.

[Roger Sunderland]

3 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Birkenhead had at least two Granges allocated at one point. I believe they replaced 4-4-0s or 2-6-0s.

 

Quick look suggests 6831, 6841, 6844, 6859 and 6860 at various times.

 

https://www.brdatabase.info/locoqry.php?action=class&id=146006&type=S&page=alloc

 

I would expect anything bigger to have been banned as out of gauge, but 7029 did run a railtour.

 

https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/7029-clun-castle/

 

 

Jason

Thanks Steamport, I agree the platforms were very tight, though I do have a shot of a 9F in platform 1, but not at the buffers.

[Roger Sunderland]

15 minutes ago, billy_anorak59 said:

 

Does help somewhat, but nothing is shown beneath the train shed, which is solid shaded or hatched.

I believe one of the platforms had a release crossover - but only 1!

[billy_anorak59]

5 minutes ago, Roger Sunderland said:

I do have a shot of a 9F in platform 1

I have a shot of 9F 92203 at the platform 1 buffers 5 March 1967 - so it did make it all the way in! Photo was taken by a friend, but don't have his permission to publish right now.

[billy_anorak59]

On 23/08/2022 at 13:52, billy_anorak59 said:

On 23/08/2022 at 13:40, Siberian Snooper said:

For a track diagram I would suggest that you go on the NLS website and look at the 25inch map(s) for Birkenhead. 

 

Does help somewhat, but nothing is shown beneath the train shed, which is solid shaded or hatched.

 

Going back to this post, I thought it might be possible to take the hand-drawn sketches I have seen (which were not in proportion, or to any scale), and see if I could adjust the 25in OS map for 1937 to approximate better the Woodside track layout c1960 (and also show what is hidden on the OS maps).

So by referencing the OS map, the three hand-drawn sketches I have seen (books and RMW), plus photographic evidence, this is what I have come up with. I don’t think I have seen a full track layout for Woodside drawn proportionately before – and it helps me too. I’m not saying it’s 100% accurate, but is close, I think. Best I can do, anyway.

 

 

The major differences between this and the 1937 map are:

The ‘Old’ Signal box on the down side approaching Platform 1 has gone – replaced by a new one on the up side at the end of Platform 5.

‘Rose Brae’ – the access road to the ‘proper entrance’ passing over the platforms just in front of the main train shed has been demolished.

The locomotive servicing area has been removed, allowing the extension (length and width) of the “Grayson, Rollo & Clover” graving dock. The stub siding that accessed it now terminates under Church Street bridge.

Hope it helps - and I'm open to any corrections!

 

[Roger Sunderland]

You are a genius. Yes this helps a lot and many thanks for taking the time to do it. It confirms my thinking about the cramped site. I’m not sure from which side it would be best to view but thinking the graving dock side as that would show the original entrance. Shame about the lack of loco facilities as this would have added to the operational interest. Do you know when they were removed to allow expansion of the dock? Presumably at this time loco servicing was done at Mollington St. 

Ive received some carriage working notices courtesy  of RobertCWP which show the make up of the major mainline services-largely WR stock on the Paddington and Welsh services plus details of Southern stock on the Bournemouth West and Margate trains.

The lack of WR 4-6-0s , as most trains were reversed and added to at Chester, is a concern for our group who all have GWR affinities. Meeting tonight so watch this space.

[billy_anorak59]

Thanks Roger - I quite enjoyed doing it as it helped me get my head around it too. It ends up looking quite 'Minories' in a way.

 

My 'mini-Woodside' will be from the 'common' side, as that's what I knew and used. I can always have a large ocean going ship as a backdrop too (it always facinated me to see the ships dwarfing the station when I was small, and was always a disappointment when there was nothing in dock). Not many terminii like that!

 

The dock expansion started in 1957 I believe and by 1959, all the servicing area had been swept away. I think the servicing was done at Mollington Street as you say - certainly the last day of Paddington workings had Clun Castle and 92203 serviced there - but the turntable removal meant that the big tanks were more firmly entrenched on the services, I guess.

 

Hope the meeting goes well - I'd be interested to hear what's said.

 

Cheers,

Bill.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[DCB]

The Track plan looks like Minories on steroids.  Birkenhead (That's GWR Speak for Liverpool) Is a great location except the long distance passenger trains reversed at Chester and so were mainly worked by tank locos, Cheltenham St James, another of the GWR's rare main line terminus's had the same problem.   The GW just didn't go in for Termini like other railways, it had a posh one at Paddington from which trains really only went to  main line termini at Swansea, (Plymouth Millbay?)   and Weymouth. without an intermediate engine change.  The reason was social. Oop North they had a lot of illiterate passengers and before Tannoys etc it was essential that as far as possible each destination or route had its own platform,  Down South the illiterate folk couldn't afford to travel, and the GWR didn't readily waste money on platforms, even Reading had to make do with just one originally.    Goods trains and the occasional specials like 4079 and 7029 ran via the south to North West curve at Chester avoiding the station.  It goes with the GWR territory, medium size termini were like hens teeth.

Edited August 25, 2022 by DCB