Individual Point Levers, or Lever Frame - Siding off branch line

[Stubby47]

Hi all, 

given this track layout, of a short siding & kick-back off a branch line, would the two points have separate levers, or would they be operated from a small lever frame ?

 

 

As always, thanks for any replies.

 

Stu

 

[Happy Hippo]

A two lever ground frame unlocked by some form of key attached to the single line token/tablet/staff.

 

One lever would operate the two points in the same manner as a crossover would be operated from signal box; The second lever would operate the required facing point lock on the running line, which is a requirement when passenger traffic traverse the line.

[Stubby47]

11 minutes ago, Happy Hippo said:

A two lever ground frame unlocked by some form of key attached to the single line token/tablet/staff.

 

One lever would operate the two points in the same manner as a crossover would be operated from signal box; The second lever would operate the required facing point lock on the running line, which is a requirement when passenger traffic traverse the line.

 

I had a feeling that would be the answer, and including the point lock, but thought I ought to check.

 

Cheers.

[russ p]

It would probably have two levers, a blue and brown one with a lock on it . This would be the release lever that would also operate the facing point lock and a black one that would operate both points.

Where a facing point lock is also required to be used in the reverse position a separate release leaver would be provided.  This would be to stop the key or token been removed when the frame is reversed 

[The Stationmaster]

3 hours ago, russ p said:

It would probably have two levers, a blue and brown one with a lock on it . This would be the release lever that would also operate the facing point lock and a black one that would operate both points.

Where a facing point lock is also required to be used in the reverse position a separate release leaver would be provided.  This would be to stop the key or token been removed when the frame is reversed 

Depends on the BR Region as far as lever colours are concerned.  Always black fotr the point lever but blue (only) is perfectly acceptable for the FPL lever and was standard practice on some Regions (for the simple reason that the point lever cannot move until the FPL lever has been reversed).  Different of course as noted by Russ when the FPl bolts both ways but that was a very unusual arrangement for siding ground frames in my experience.

[Stubby47]

Further to the above, a question now about signals on a single track line.

 

If the line is divided into sections, would the end of each section be marked with a Home signal, and would these be opposite each other across the track ?

 

TIA

[Wheatley]

45 minutes ago, Stubby47 said:

Further to the above, a question now about signals on a single track line.

 

If the line is divided into sections, would the end of each section be marked with a Home signal, and would these be opposite each other across the track ?

 

TIA

Yes (usually) and not necessarily (or even usually) in that order. 

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, Stubby47 said:

Further to the above, a question now about signals on a single track line.

 

If the line is divided into sections, would the end of each section be marked with a Home signal, and would these be opposite each other across the track ?

 

TIA

If the connection is worked by a ground frame there wouldn't be any signals for those points.  

 

However the next question is how would the level crossing be controlled and signalled?  Here you have a choice (with some variations possible by Company/BR Region and date so a list of options might help (or totally confuse you - so I'll try to keep it simple)

 

1.  The bare bones.  the level crossing would be controlled from a ground fram at the end of the station platform but all it would do is have a couple of brown levers to work the gate locks; the gates would be swung by hand and the working of the crossing would be in the hands of the station Porter.  there would also be two yellow levers to work the distant signals for the level crossing.    The gates would have red targets on them showing towards bot the road and - when the gates are open to the road - towards any approaching train.  These targets were normally round but variations could be found on some companies and these lasted well into BR days often surviving until the line closed. 

 

2.  A little bit of meat on the bones.  Red targets still there but now we add two red levers to the ground frame and provide semaphore stop signals, one ine each direct, protecting the crossing. These signals would be sited very close to the crossing - look at the signal on the left in the picture below

 

You will notice a building on the right - that is Staverton Signal Box which works a very simple track layout and takes us to -

 

3.  Enough meat on the bone to make a lamb chop.  What you can next do is put all your level crossing levers in a small hut -like the one at Staverton perhaps -  and call it a ground frame with a nameboard on it.   But you could go a bit further and possibly call it a signal box and also have it working the connection to the siding.  the Staverton sif gnal box diagram linked below shows you how this might look complete with where to put the signals.

 

 https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/gwf/S960.htm

 

4.  Or move up to a Barnsley Chop with more meat on the bone.   This is really a change of building rather than anything else - we've got there with the maximum in the way of signals then at 3 we turned the ground frame building onto a signal box.  But there's more than one way of building a small signal box and you might find some ideas here, e.g. Frongoch, but site it at the end of the platform next to the level crossing to get the most typical/ideal look.  (BTW Arenig might tempt you but note those slates hung on the end wall were there to deal with Welsh mountain weather so your layout might not be the right setting for such precautions.

 

https://balaffest.org.uk/signalling/

 

 

The choice is now down to you but a number of options are there.

[Stubby47]

Mike,

 

Thanks, that's definitely food for thought !

[Grovenor]

Interesting that the photo and the box diagram for Staverton show different track layouts.

 

But the answer avoided Stubby's question about signals when the line was divided into sections.

In UK practice dividing a single line by having an intermediate block post without crossing facilities was unusual.

[Stubby47]

25 minutes ago, Grovenor said:

In UK practice dividing a single line by having an intermediate block post without crossing facilities was unusual.

 

So sections were 'governed' by where any crossing might be ?  As that necessitated a man on the spot to manage the crossing and therefore it made sense to also make that location the section ends ?

 

Thanks.

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, Stubby47 said:

 

So sections were 'governed' by where any crossing might be ?  As that necessitated a man on the spot to manage the crossing and therefore it made sense to also make that location the section ends ?

 

Thanks.

No.  if we are talking about Block Sections, i.e the section of running line between one block post and another there were various ways it was done.  Most common was where therere was a crossing station - i.e trains going in opposite directions could pass (normally called 'cross) each other.  This usually meant that there was a line, called a loop, for each direction but in some cases one pf the trains might be shunted into a siding for another to cross it (not very common and in later years almost inevitably the train to be shunted had to be a freight train - but there were several examples of this in the county where you now live.

 

The other situation was where a block post was provided on a single without any sort of crossing facility but it divided the single line into two separate block sections thus increasing line capacity if trains were following each other - there were two examples of this arrangement in the county where you now live.  And ' as Wheatley' explained' the Home Signals in each direction could be opposite each other although this wasn't the case in those two examples.    Further examples could be found elsewhere including Staverton although it was something of an oddity due to the Regulations used on the Ashburton branch..

 

The key factor is whether or not the signal box was a block post and thus had a separate single line block section on each side of it.

 

If we now come to your example - with the signal box options of those I listed above -  it could indeed work as a break section box with a separate single line section on each side of it and with no ability at all to cross trains (the siding is too short in my view to hold a train clear of the single line).  In block section terms a level crossing is totally irrelevant - which I think was the question you were asking?   Except to the extent that it might influence the position of the Home Signal - which is the signal which marks the end of a block section -  a level crossing plays no part at all in block signalling and is ignored when it comes to the question of the Clearing Point (the length of line in advance of a Home Signal which has to be clear before a train can be accepted into the section in rear of the Home Signal).  

 

Level crossings were quite common in singe line block sections and many of them had no semaphore signals apart from their distant signals.  All the Crossing Keeper needed to know was when a train was coming and in which direction it was travelling and at what time he should make the gates were open for the train and he was able to clear the distant signal before the train reached it

Edited October 19, 2022 by The Stationmaster

[Stubby47]

Thanks again Mike.

 

Yes, absolutely my misunderstanding of crossings.

 

Crossings as trains passing, not numpties like me crossing the line....

[Mike_Walker]

2 hours ago, Grovenor said:

Interesting that the photo and the box diagram for Staverton show different track layouts.

 

But the answer avoided Stubby's question about signals when the line was divided into sections.

In UK practice dividing a single line by having an intermediate block post without crossing facilities was unusual.

Not unknown though.  Wooburn Green near me was a block post and token station with a level crossing but no passing loop.

[RailWest]

The reason for the difference in layout at Staverton between the diagram and the photo is simple.

 

Originally the layout was as per the diagram (IIRC complete with an Up Home signal no 2 that was was removed at an early date). After many years in preservation the South Devon Railway built a new passing-loop north of the station with a new signal box called Bishops Bridge. The former Staverton box was retained simply to control the gates and 'slot' the main signals worked from BB. The siding was 'reversed' so that the connection was now at the north end and faced Up trains, whereas previously it was at the south end and faced Down trains, and is now worked from BB as well.

 

It should be noted that only the gates across the main running line were bolted from the signal-box, those across the siding simply being padlocked (?) across the rails except when need to be opened for shunting. The same applies today AFAIK.

 

As an aside, I had the pleasure of working that box on many occasions in the late-1960s/early1970s when it was still in its 'original' layout form - lovely place to be on a summer's day :-)

 

Edited November 1, 2022 by RailWest

[RailWest]

On 19/10/2022 at 17:17, Mike_Walker said:

Not unknown though.  Wooburn Green near me was a block post and token station with a level crossing but no passing loop.

...as also were places like Lodge Hill and Wookey etc.

[Michael Hodgson]

I'm wonding about the gated compound.  Gated suggests to me that it's private rather than railway-owned.  What traffic does it receive/generate?  How is it worked?  Length of sidings is important here.  Difficult to shunt if the goods yard is fairly full.  Otherwise we are in the game of pinch bars, horse shunting etc.

 

Traffic for the goods shed is best worked from train from right to left and can detach wagons from anywhere in the train. 

Traffic for compound is more conveniently worked in opposite direction.  Also, incoming wagon must be at head of train running left to right where it can be detached and shunted in, outgoing wagon the complementary movements.

 

You describe the platform as Station/Halt.  I'm not sure about GWR terminology, but to me a halt implies somewhere unstaffed (a crossing keeper who does nothing else doesn't count), tickets sold on the train.  However if it's got a goods shed, I would call it a station as there would need to be somebody to work in it; if it's not very busy his duties could well include working gates, selling tickets to passengers - probably a porter or porter/signalman.

 

I can't see this being a block post, as there would need to be a signalman there all the time the branch is open in addition to the porter working in the shed, as instruments need to be worked for every train. 

[Stubby47]

3 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

I'm wonding about the gated compound.  Gated suggests to me that it's private rather than railway-owned.  What traffic does it receive/generate?  How is it worked?  Length of sidings is important here.  Difficult to shunt if the goods yard is fairly full.  Otherwise we are in the game of pinch bars, horse shunting etc.

 

Traffic for the goods shed is best worked from train from right to left and can detach wagons from anywhere in the train. 

Traffic for compound is more conveniently worked in opposite direction.  Also, incoming wagon must be at head of train running left to right where it can be detached and shunted in, outgoing wagon the complementary movements.

 

You describe the platform as Station/Halt.  I'm not sure about GWR terminology, but to me a halt implies somewhere unstaffed (a crossing keeper who does nothing else doesn't count), tickets sold on the train.  However if it's got a goods shed, I would call it a station as there would need to be somebody to work in it; if it's not very busy his duties could well include working gates, selling tickets to passengers - probably a porter or porter/signalman.

 

I can't see this being a block post, as there would need to be a signalman there all the time the branch is open in addition to the porter working in the shed, as instruments need to be worked for every train. 

 

As with most things, this layout has changed somewhat from my original plans, but your comments still hold true for shunting & the Halt status.

 

The layout build is now being documented here.

 

The gated area is intended to be a private siding (a factory, at the moment...) and although a small goods shed is planned, this will be 'separate' from the halt. 

 

I also intend to add a signal, completely against all known operating procedures, but I want one.

 

Rule 1 applies. 😇

Edited November 2, 2022 by Stubby47

[Michael Hodgson]

OK, but every time the layout changes, your signalling requirements are potentially changed. 

Signalling is provided only for movements that happen regularly.

 

If the level crossing has gone and the shed only receives infrequent traffic, it maybe doesn't need even a full-time porter let alone a signalman.  The running signals suggested above by Signalman were there to protect the level crossing.  It looks like it could now be completely unsignalled, worked using a ground frame unlocked by the train crew by an Annetts key on the single line staff, with maybe a travelling porter coming in for only a part-shift from somewhere bigger.

 

If you want a signal just for scenic purposes, you could provide a distant signal just before the scenic break for the next station at either or even both ends (signal into the fiddle yard)!

[roythebus1]

Yes, a working fixed distant is the answer. :)