Cv51/52 in JMRI

[boxbrownie]

Bit of a quandary here, just trying the adjust CV51/52 in JMRI and under the listing of CVs they are missing.

 

I can find them on my ECoS controller, but usually like,to,rector and fiddle in JMRI first, what basic mistake am I obviously making?

[Pete the Elaner]

I cannot give a proper answer, but I can see them in mine so they should be there. I have tried with several different types of decoder too.

I cannot find a way to only show some CVs (ie. only the ones which can be changed) so I don't think that is the answer.

 

There are 2 other things I can think of though:

Have you updated JMRI recently?

Java can be a bit of a pain. My JMRI refused to open loco programming windows a while back. Updating Java sorted this. I do not understand why, but it worked.

 

[Porcy Mane]

25 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

Bit of a quandary here, just trying the adjust CV51/52 in JMRI and under the listing of CVs they are missing.

 Are they missing from the decoder definition you are using?

 

Have you try using the Single CV programmer in Decoder pro to read CV's #51 & 52?

 

Can CV's #51 & 52 be read using the CV reader under the CV tab?

 

Just wondering?

[Nigelcliffe]

Which decoder file ?     CV51 might be "turn the kettle on" or "make the loco go faster" or "flash the lights" depending on decoder maker and decoder model. 

 

 

There are sometimes reasons why JMRI doesn't include certain CVs - those related to reset and decoder locking are done differently (long technical explanation is possible).   

Or, it can be because the decoder file just didn't include them when the file was written - either the writer of the file missed them, or didn't know about them at the time.  

 

 

- Nigel

 

[boxbrownie]

16 hours ago, Porcy Mane said:

 Are they missing from the decoder definition you are using?

 

Have you try using the Single CV programmer in Decoder pro to read CV's #51 & 52?

 

Can CV's #51 & 52 be read using the CV reader under the CV tab?

 

Just wondering?

I have no idea what the “decoder definition” is, sorry.

 

Single CV programmer in Decoder Pro?

 

No, the CV in question (as are many others) in the list of CVS in the CV tab.

[boxbrownie]

3 hours ago, Nigelcliffe said:

Which decoder file ?     CV51 might be "turn the kettle on" or "make the loco go faster" or "flash the lights" depending on decoder maker and decoder model. 

 

 

There are sometimes reasons why JMRI doesn't include certain CVs - those related to reset and decoder locking are done differently (long technical explanation is possible).   

Or, it can be because the decoder file just didn't include them when the file was written - either the writer of the file missed them, or didn't know about them at the time.  

 

 

- Nigel

 

This is the Accurascale Deltic sound file on their V5 chip, I am trying to adjust the slow running and somebody in the AS thread suggested some alternate settings and a list.

 

I’m going to have another poke around this morning, might even have to resort to using the ECoS controller, not tried that as yet.

[boxbrownie]

Well updated decoder pro to the latest version, Java as well and still in the list of CVs 52&52 are missing.

 

Went onto ECoS controller and programmed in those CVs easily as usual and the slow running of the Deltic is now virtually perfect.

 

I am jst still very puzzled as to the JMRI issue.

[Nigelcliffe]

2 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

I have no idea what the “decoder definition” is, sorry.

 

Single CV programmer in Decoder Pro?

 

No, the CV in question (as are many others) in the list of CVS in the CV tab.

 

Decoder Definition - the file used by JMRI to describe the specific decoder.  There are hundreds of them, covering the thousands of decoders on sale.  It is what you select when defining a new locomotive - what decoder does it have inside. 

DecoderPro will make a good guess as to which decoder definition file to use, but it is limited by the values a decoder maker has made available (often incomplete information), and the user often has to then select the correct option from several highlighted in a very long list.  

 

Single CV Programmer - an option in DecoderPro, on one of the menus, for a tool which gives access to any CV.  Very much a manual tinkering tool. 

 

2 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

This is the Accurascale Deltic sound file on their V5 chip, I am trying to adjust the slow running and somebody in the AS thread suggested some alternate settings and a list.

 

That's not really an answer, because there is no DecoderPro entry for any Accurascale items.   
I'd guess the loco contains an ESU LokSound V5 ?   If so, then CV's 51 and 52 appear in the JMRI DecoderPro version I'm using, both in the CV list and on the "motor" tab (which is where I'd expect them to be). 

 

 

- Nigel

[boxbrownie]

Thanks Nigel, that explains it much clearer.  Understand about the definitions……basically it’s the make and type of decoder simply, I must have let it do its own thing and refined it wrongly when it stopped choosing, I’ll have another look at that.

 

Yes I had been using the single CV programmer tab, now I know what the name for it is 😉

 

Sorry, I thought everyone knew Accurascale only use the ESU V5 (at the moment), as above I will check that the correct chip is selected, BTW is there a choice of V5 chip* in the list, before I go and look later? 
 

* I know there are two V5 apparently, the US version and the annoying U.K./EU version without the three step accel adjustment.

[Nigelcliffe]

2 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

Yes I had been using the single CV programmer tab, now I know what the name for it is 😉

 

 

No, that's the CV tab.   

The "Single CV Programmer" is a separate window, separate command.   It is on the "Actions" Menu if you are using the Roster view of decoders (the default start screen in DecoderPro).   

 

 

2 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

Sorry, I thought everyone knew Accurascale only use the ESU V5 (at the moment), as above I will check that the correct chip is selected, BTW is there a choice of V5 chip* in the list, before I go and look later? 
 

* I know there are two V5 apparently, the US version and the annoying U.K./EU version without the three step accel adjustment.

 

Why would everyone know ?   I guessed.  

You do need to get the correct version of the LokSound 5 - there's the general version 5 decoder (the multi-protocol European version) and there is the "5 DCC" which is DCC-only and US-market.    There are other differences than just the speed curve.   The LokSound decoder files are carefully managed by the chap who writes them, with direct contact into ESU to check things, so are likely to be correct and complete if you choose the correct one. 

 

There are also ways of importing a full CV set of values from a LokProgrammer or similar if you have those (Accuracscale would have needed them to create the decoder files).  That will save a lot of waiting whilst several thousand CVs are read in.    

 

 

- Nigel

[55020]

@boxbrownie  The AS Deltic decoder is a V5 DCC decoder, just in case that helps you track down the missing CVs.  I don't use JMRI, so can't help with your specific issue.

 

 

Steve

[boxbrownie]

56 minutes ago, Nigelcliffe said:

 

No, that's the CV tab.   

The "Single CV Programmer" is a separate window, separate command.   It is on the "Actions" Menu if you are using the Roster view of decoders (the default start screen in DecoderPro).   

 

 

 

Why would everyone know ?   I guessed.  

You do need to get the correct version of the LokSound 5 - there's the general version 5 decoder (the multi-protocol European version) and there is the "5 DCC" which is DCC-only and US-market.    There are other differences than just the speed curve.   The LokSound decoder files are carefully managed by the chap who writes them, with direct contact into ESU to check things, so are likely to be correct and complete if you choose the correct one. 

 

There are also ways of importing a full CV set of values from a LokProgrammer or similar if you have those (Accuracscale would have needed them to create the decoder files).  That will save a lot of waiting whilst several thousand CVs are read in.    

 

 

- Nigel

Thanks for that info, never realised there was another CV programmer window, I’ll look once it’s been read again.

 

My assuming (alright most) people knew Accurascale only used ESU decoders. The decoder is the one supplied by Accurascale ready fitted in the Loco, I never installed it.

 

I am still trying to find clarity as to which version it has. I don’t have lokprogrammer as I usually only use Zimo decoders as I find them much better for motor control, unfortunately there is no sound file/Zimo decoder for the Accurascale Deltic as yet so had to go for as supplied.

[boxbrownie]

35 minutes ago, 55020 said:

@boxbrownie  The AS Deltic decoder is a V5 DCC decoder, just in case that helps you track down the missing CVs.  I don't use JMRI, so can't help with your specific issue.

 

 

Steve

I am presently running the full read facility and using the V5 DCC choice in the menu/definitions listing, hopefully it might read and include all CVs when it’s finished.

[Nigelcliffe]

37 minutes ago, 55020 said:

@boxbrownie  The AS Deltic decoder is a V5 DCC decoder, just in case that helps you track down the missing CVs.  I don't use JMRI, so can't help with your specific issue.

 

 

Is that definitive information - ie. the locomotive has the US-market "LokSound V5 DCC" fitted to it, and not the UK/EU market "LokSound V5" - they are **different decoders** with different CV structures.   

 

The manual for the locomotive says "Loksound V5", which is the other one !   

 

 

- Nigel

Edited September 26, 2022 by Nigelcliffe

[Porcy Mane]

1 hour ago, boxbrownie said:

I am presently running the full read facility and using the V5 DCC choice in the menu/definitions listing, hopefully it might read and include all CVs when it’s finished.

 

I'd be interested to know how long this full read takes. I've only experience of one ESU V5 chip.

 

Using an ESU decoder tester and decoder pro the full read process took about 90 minutes.

 

Full reads of Zimo chips (MS & MX series) normally take between ten & fifteen minutes.

 

P

[Pete the Elaner]

11 minutes ago, Porcy Mane said:

 

I'd be interested to know how long this full read takes. I've only experience of one ESU V5 chip.

 

Using an ESU decoder tester and decoder pro the full read process took about 90 minutes.

 

Full reads of Zimo chips (MS & MX series) normally take between ten & fifteen minutes.

 

P

 

From my experience, those timings sound about right. Fortunately they only need to be done once per decoder.

[55020]

2 hours ago, Nigelcliffe said:

 

Is that definitive information - ie. the locomotive has the US-market "LokSound V5 DCC" fitted to it, and not the UK/EU market "LokSound V5" - they are **different decoders** with different CV structures.   

 

The manual for the locomotive says "Loksound V5", which is the other one !   

 

 

- Nigel

 

Nigel,

 

It is definitely a V5 DCC, as reported by LokProgrammer.  It was also confirmed by AS some time ago.

 

 

Steve

Edited September 26, 2022 by 55020

[Nigelcliffe]

20 minutes ago, 55020 said:

It is definitely a V5 DCC, as reported by LokProgrammer.  It was also confirmed by AS some time ago.

 

 

Thanks.    That's clear now, and the correct decoder can be selected.   

 

- Nigel

 

[boxbrownie]

OK….it read on the V5 DCC selection and all the CVs are now available on the CV tab, still haven’t found the @Nigelcliffe the menu drop down window pane you mentioned, this is what I have when on the Roster window

As for the list of V5 versions

-

 

When DecoderPro automatically picked the decoder type the first time it seemed to have picked V5  Fx DCC version which didn’t have all CVs available. 
 

It has now done another scan after I picked the V5 DCC version and they are all there in the CV tab, it took about 2 hours and always seems to take about that with the other V5’s I have (don’t ask, Christmas holiday purchase and needed decoders when Zimo were out of stock, I bought five V5 and wish I hadn’t now).

 

Anyhoo upshot is, DecoderPro not as smart as I thought, but still nice and comprehensive in its workings.

[boxbrownie]

1 hour ago, 55020 said:

 

Nigel,

 

It is definitely a V5 DCC, as reported by LokProgrammer.  It was also confirmed by AS some time ago.

 

 

Steve

I looked for ages and searched in the Deltic thread but couldn’t find a definite answer, loads of chatter about different versions.

 

Thanks for confirming.

[Porcy Mane]

32 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

still haven’t found the @Nigelcliffe the menu drop down window pane you mentioned,

 

As Nigel said, it's under the actions menu in the initial decoder pro start up window.

 

Does this help?

 

[boxbrownie]

Aha….thanks.

[Pete the Elaner]

14 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

 

Anyhoo upshot is, DecoderPro not as smart as I thought, but still nice and comprehensive in its workings.

 

If you try to identify decoder types using CV8 & CV7, you will see why.

CV8 is the manufacturer code. They all seem to stick to this. I expect they have to.

 

CV7 is a decoder type, so reading this should allow you to identify a decoder. With this in mind, I started to make a list for my own benefit. Sadly I never got very far.

I have 3 entries for Loksound decoders. v3.5 was 59, v4 was 255. v5 was also 255..

So let's try Hornby..

Sapphire was 10 R8249 was 13, TTS class 60 was 132. Ok so far. I tried another R8249 & that was 131.

Zimo seem to use this differently. My notes say CV7 is firmware part 1, CV65 is firmware part 2, CV250 is decoder type, CV251-253 is serial number.

So Zimo have their own system, ESU seem to use something different. Lenz & DCC concepts will probably have their own systems too. A third party writing some software will have a hard time coping with all of these differences & keeping up with developments within each of them, which is why JMRI usually presents a list of possibilities when reading the decoder.

 

[boxbrownie]

2 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

If you try to identify decoder types using CV8 & CV7, you will see why.

CV8 is the manufacturer code. They all seem to stick to this. I expect they have to.

 

CV7 is a decoder type, so reading this should allow you to identify a decoder. With this in mind, I started to make a list for my own benefit. Sadly I never got very far.

I have 3 entries for Loksound decoders. v3.5 was 59, v4 was 255. v5 was also 255..

So let's try Hornby..

Sapphire was 10 R8249 was 13, TTS class 60 was 132. Ok so far. I tried another R8249 & that was 131.

Zimo seem to use this differently. My notes say CV7 is firmware part 1, CV65 is firmware part 2, CV250 is decoder type, CV251-253 is serial number.

So Zimo have their own system, ESU seem to use something different. Lenz & DCC concepts will probably have their own systems too. A third party writing some software will have a hard time coping with all of these differences & keeping up with developments within each of them, which is why JMRI usually presents a list of possibilities when reading the decoder.

 

I laughed because this isn’t a “new” technology anymore and by now you would think…..er….no, maybe not 😁  as with almost every new tech anything like something useful becoming a standard which is adhered to is almost non-existent.

 

I understand why JMRI list the decoders as they do, it’s just that hard part seems to be pinning down exactly what decoder version is fitted/supplied.

 

So is V5 in the listing the EU/U.K. version? Now we know that V5 DCC is the US version, or is it the V5 MKL version?  I seriously thought there were only two versions (US & EU/RoW) of the 21pin V5.
 

 

[Nigelcliffe]

47 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

I understand why JMRI list the decoders as they do, it’s just that hard part seems to be pinning down exactly what decoder version is fitted/supplied.

 

So is V5 in the listing the EU/U.K. version? Now we know that V5 DCC is the US version, or is it the V5 MKL version?  I seriously thought there were only two versions (US & EU/RoW) of the 21pin V5.
 

 

 

JMRI does a good job when the information is known.  It's pretty good with ESU because of one person's determined work.

 

The JMRI labels for ESU come from ESU's description of their decoders.   
There is the V5, which is the UK/EU version, which is multi-protocol.  
And there is the V5 DCC, which is the USA version, different CVs, different features, and DCC only.

But there are sub-variants which are relevant: the "V5 MKL" being the "V5" 21-pin decoder for Marklin standard interfaces and the other "V5" 21-pin being the NMRA standard interface for function outputs.  (The wonder of standards and the two different 21 pin arrangements, hence two different decoder versions from ESU depending how the loco is wired...). 

I think ESU assume there are no North American models with a 21pin which is wired to Marklin arrangement, so there's not a "V5 DCC MKL".  

 

In theory, an ESU decoder has a product ID in a few CVs that JMRI tries to interpret to reduce the options.  But, if the ID returned is one that JMRI doesn't know about, then it can't do that reduction and a list of possible options is shown.   If people informed the relevant JMRI developer of new ID numbers, then the JMRI file would get updated...

 

 

 

3 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

....

CV7 is a decoder type, so reading this should allow you to identify a decoder. With this in mind, I started to make a list for my own benefit. Sadly I never got very far.

I have 3 entries for Loksound decoders. v3.5 was 59, v4 was 255. v5 was also 255..

So let's try Hornby..

Sapphire was 10 R8249 was 13, TTS class 60 was 132. Ok so far. I tried another R8249 & that was 131.

Zimo seem to use this differently. My notes say CV7 is firmware part 1, CV65 is firmware part 2, CV250 is decoder type, CV251-253 is serial number.

So Zimo have their own system, ESU seem to use something different. Lenz & DCC concepts will probably have their own systems too. A third party writing some software will have a hard time coping with all of these differences & keeping up with developments within each of them, which is why JMRI usually presents a list of possibilities when reading the decoder.

 

 

JMRI has the tools built in for decoder writers to cope with these when they are known about.   It's pretty good with Zimo and ESU, because those manufacturers document how their identification method works.  
Hornby is so-so, there is an identification CV in their TTS manuals, but Hornby have broken it themselves at least once (I've spotted TTS decoders with the same ID number, yet they're radically different locos). 

There are other brands (some US-sound providers for example) which are well documented and thus identify well.