LNWR vac braked wagon

[billbedford]

A number of LNWR wagons were fitted with vacuum brakes operated by horizontal stacks. Did these wagons keep this equipment throughout their lives or was it replaced by a more conventional arrangement? If so when was the change made?

[Wickham Green too]

A quick delve into David Larkin's latest 'Acquired Wagons' volume finds no LNWR vans - which might suggest that they were withdrawn earlier than their contemporaries, maybe 'cos they were non standard ...... after all modification would involve a significant rearrangement of fixing points.

[Compound2632]

I can't help with the question but for the uninitiated, this drawing shows the brake cylinder arrangement to which Bill refers:

 

 

[Embedded link to L&NWR Society website.]

[65179]

On 27/09/2022 at 09:24, Wickham Green too said:

A quick delve into David Larkin's latest 'Acquired Wagons' volume finds no LNWR vans - which might suggest that they were withdrawn earlier than their contemporaries, maybe 'cos they were non standard ...... after all modification would involve a significant rearrangement of fixing points.

 

That isn't a comprehensive volume. A number of Pre-Grouping vans known to have made it to 1948 and beyond don't feature.

 

No shortage of LNWR vans post-nationalisation:

 

Radford goods yard copyright DaveF of this parish.

 

Regards,

Simon

Edited September 28, 2022 by 65179

[Wickham Green too]

29 minutes ago, 65179 said:

That isn't a comprehensive volume. ...

I can't recall anyone saying it WAS comprehensive.

[Compound2632]

8 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

I can't recall anyone saying it WAS comprehensive.

 

It gives that impression. Otherwise it should have "some" in the title instead of "the".

[Wickham Green too]

Indeed ........ and there are other absentees too - such a the "... South Eastern & Chatham ... type, which cannot be illustrated ..." ..................... though my original comment was based on David's comprehensive-ish coverage of major LMS constituents - except  the biggest, the LNWR.

[65179]

12 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

I can't recall anyone saying it WAS comprehensive.

 

I wasn't suggesting you had.  I merely intended to highlight that it wasn't to explain why I didn't feel any inference could be made about the survival of LNWR or any other pre-Grouping vans on the basis of the book.

 

Simon

[billbedford]

Wow, a 1:3 drift ratio. Is this a record?

[Wickham Green too]

Easily beaten by the Level Crossing Stupidity thread ( as that's strictly under a UK banner ) .... and long may it remain dritfed !

[billbedford]

Maybe Peter Denny was right about modellers being much more concerned with how the roof of a vehicle looked than whether it had brakes. 

[Compound2632]

7 hours ago, billbedford said:

Maybe Peter Denny was right about modellers being much more concerned with how the roof of a vehicle looked than whether it had brakes. 

 

It's all about angle of perception!

[kevinlms]

20 hours ago, billbedford said:

Maybe Peter Denny was right about modellers being much more concerned with how the roof of a vehicle looked than whether it had brakes. 

I thought it was all about how white the roof is - for GWR modellers! Freshly repainted out of the shops for all.

[Wickham Green too]

Where's me shades ? 😎

[Dave John]

Is the big horizontal vac cylinder ex L+Y , or based on a L+Y design ? 

 

During the 1930s the LMS were converting ex CR Grampian corridor coaches to vac brakes. The simple solution was to use a double ended vac cylinder of L+Y origin to replace the double ended westinghouse cylinder.

 

The build instructions from Caley coaches notes that the L+Y wagon works at Newton Heath was closed in 1930 with surplus parts being moved to St Rollox. If they are the same type then they continued in use until the late  1950s, albeit on coaching stock.

[Compound2632]

10 minutes ago, Dave John said:

Is the big horizontal vac cylinder ex L+Y , or based on a L+Y design ? 

 

There is nothing in LNWR Wagons to suggest so. The arrangement in the drawing I linked to was introduced in 1894, to be superseded by a conventional vertical vac cylinder in 1904. 

[Wickham Green too]

5 hours ago, Dave John said:

..... The simple solution was to use a double ended vac cylinder of L+Y origin to replace the double ended Westinghouse cylinder. ....

Not quite that simple as air brake cylinders 'push' and vac ones 'pull' !

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, Wickham Green too said:

Not quite that simple as air brake cylinders 'push' and vac ones 'pull' !

 

The drawing amply illustrates the superiority of the air brake - a much larger volume is required for the vacuum brake to exert the same force as the air brake.

[K14]

12 hours ago, Dave John said:

Is the big horizontal vac cylinder ex L+Y , or based on a L+Y design ? 

 

During the 1930s the LMS were converting ex CR Grampian corridor coaches to vac brakes. The simple solution was to use a double ended vac cylinder of L+Y origin to replace the double ended westinghouse cylinder.

 

The build instructions from Caley coaches notes that the L+Y wagon works at Newton Heath was closed in 1930 with surplus parts being moved to St Rollox. If they are the same type then they continued in use until the late  1950s, albeit on coaching stock.

 

From "Railway Carriages & Wagons: Their Design & Construction (Sidney Stone, M.I.Mech.E. 1903):—

 

In this brake the vacuum is created by an ejector and maintained by a pump like the Great Western brake, but while most of the parts are mechanically entirely different the same result is obtained, and carriages fitted with this brake intermix in the same train with carriages fitted with either of the other vacuum brakes without any trouble.

This brake was designed by Mr. F. W. Webb, chief mechanical engineer of the L. and North Western R.

 

LNWR Sack Brake.pdf

 

The story I've heard was that Webb threw the Westinghouse rep out on his ear after the latter suggested that Webb could benefit personally if he adopted their Patented brake - presumably getting a cut of the royalties.

I'd guess that the Sack Brake was a royalty-free solution, rather like the Armstrong/Churchward 'Dean Dustbin' which didn't infringe on the Automatic Vacuum Brake Co's patent.

 

What system did the L&Y use?

 

[Compound2632]

On 02/10/2022 at 00:33, K14 said:

The story I've heard was that Webb threw the Westinghouse rep out on his ear after the latter suggested that Webb could benefit personally if he adopted their Patented brake - presumably getting a cut of the royalties.

 

Not the rep but George Westinghouse himself, I believe.

 

The Westinghouse Co's business practices in the 1880s did it no favours with the morally rectitudinous directors and officials of English railway companies. The Midland had been an enthusiastic adopter of the Westinghouse Brake in the 1870s but various long-running disputes with the firm led to it changing over to AVB in the 1880s.

Edited October 3, 2022 by Compound2632
sp.

[kevinlms]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Not the rep but George Westinghouse himself, I believe.

 

The Westinghouse Co's business practices in the 1880s did it no favours with the moral rectitudinous directors and officials of English railway companies. The Midland had been an enthusiastic adopter of the Westinghouse Brake in the 1870s but various long-running disputes with the firm led to it changing over to AVB in the 1880s.

The meeting of F.W. Webb and his meeting with George Westinghouse, is related in the Talbot's book 'LNWR Recalled' (ISBN 0-86093-392-X), where the latter was thrown out after suggesting a commission of 20,000 pounds for Webb! I suspect that was a significant amount of money for the day.

 

This is on page 54. Later on page 56/57, there is a separate article on the later Newark Brake Trials, where several brakes were tested, including the LNWR Webb Chain Brake. This author was unaware apparently of the reason why this complicated and ineffective brake was trialled! Anything but Westinghouse!

[Compound2632]

15 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

Talbot's book 'LNWR Recalled'

 

That's where I got my version of the story from! Excellent book.

[Wickham Green too]

46 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

..... 20,000 pounds for Webb! I suspect that was a significant amount of money for the day. .....

For some of us it still is !

[billbedford]

So.... were the horizontal vacuum sacks a Webb invention?

Edited October 3, 2022 by billbedford

[Compound2632]

11 hours ago, billbedford said:

So.... were the horizontal vacuum sacks a Webb invention?

 

That's what @K14's post is saying, as I read it.