Hornby announce TT:120

[Pacific231G]

On 19/10/2022 at 16:00, Mike Harvey said:

Imagine sitting in a quiet office in South East Devon in early 2020 with a bustling model train accessory and wagon factory, a model rail exhibition and a railway theme park alongside. A sales enquiry arrives from an unknown company asking about the supply of a colossal quantity of unit TT track. Your positive response describes a standard formula for turnouts, straights and curves but using a code 80 rail with a code 55 appearance. Although your proposition was not accepted, a close watch on the supply side of the market alerts you to demand for Code 80 rail outstripping all previous levels. Having already branched out into American H0 track, and bullhead 00 gauge track, you review the case and decide that it is time to start competing in the continental TT track market. And with a correct scale/gauge relationship, why not sound out the market for British outline locomotives, rolling stock, buildings etc. Coincidentally, not long after the launch of the TT:120 track, Hornby weighs in with a fully developed UK market proposition. You sit back in your chair and reflect on how living and breathing in the model railway track world can bring advantages. 

It seems more likely that Peco (and probably others as well) had known for some time that Hornby were going to go with 1:120 scale TT and probably vice-versa. As with 00, Hornby's sectional track is more likely to be used by those who just want something on which to run their trains whilst Peco's market will be more those building more developed model railways. The two offerings seem more complementary than competitive.

 

This was certainly what happened with TT-3. I've been looking through the 1957 Railway Modellers and it's quite interesting. Rokal had been around with TT as early as 1952 but I've not seen any advertising for TT before 1957.

As soon as Tri-ang's TT range was announced (in the March 1957 RM followig its launch at the Toy Fair in February) lPeco and Gem were offering track and points (Gem had actually been advertising TT track since January 1957) while Hamblings had 3mm scale Bilteezi sheets ready to go. Interestingly, both Peco's point kits and Gem's RTL points were "universal" i.e. with closing frogs, presumably to handle both Tri-ang and Rokal wheel standards. Within a couple of months;  Eames were advertising a GWR 94xx  Pannier Tank using the Tri-ang 0-6-0 mechanism, Welkut had their own range of TT track and HUB (Taylor & McKenna) had a scale TT sleeper strip. Wrenn were a bit slower off the blocks with their TT track not being advertised till October but my point is that none of these products could have been made available if their design hadn't started well before Tri-ang's launch. 

That was then but Hornby would have had no interest in being alone with TT 120 so, as in 1957, I'm sure some discrete exchanges between companies had been taking place within the competition rules.  

[wairoa]

I wonder if TT will attract people who model in British HO? I think it may.

[NHY 581]

3 hours ago, wairoa said:

I wonder if TT will attract people who model in British HO? I think it may.

 

 

Yep, I think they'll both be very happy. 

 

Rob.

 

 

[Hobby]

7 hours ago, Pacific231G said:

HUB (Taylor & McKenna) had a scale TT sleeper strip.

 

Is that the stuff that Ratio later sold? When I was modelling in 00n3 I used sleeper strip with Peco code 80 rail but I'm sure it was Ratio's.

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, Hobby said:

 

Is that the stuff that Ratio later sold? When I was modelling in 00n3 I used sleeper strip with Peco code 80 rail but I'm sure it was Ratio's.

I think Ratio tooled it's own sleeper strip.   They tooled the sleeper strip for GEM's 16.5mm gauge track which suggests they had experience by then in doing that sort of tooling as it was good track.

[AY Mod]

10 hours ago, Pacific231G said:

It seems more likely that Peco ... had known for some time that Hornby were going to go with 1:120 scale TT

 

A point to consider: both parties use the TT colon 120 nomenclature, not necessarily proof in isolation but the point that both use the same font for such (ITC Lubalin Graph, as used in Hornby's logo, in the branding indicates there's been some cooperation or that Peco are very, very savvy.

[Chris116]

The best running wagons in TT3 days were the Peco Wonderful Wagons which were very easy to build and looked good in a train even if some were not strictly prototypical. I wonder if Peco will produce any in TT:120?

[RAF96]

21 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

A point to consider: both parties use the TT colon 120 nomenclature, not necessarily proof in isolation but the point that both use the same font for such (ITC Lubalin Graph, as used in Hornby's logo, in the branding indicates there's been some cooperation or that Peco are very, very savvy.

 

I think you will find that Hornby did not go into this in isolation and that several other companies were prior ‘consulted’ with. Whether they opted to climb on the band wagon or not is their business.

[Hroth]

Looking through some old purchase records, I find that I bought the R3810 Rocket train pack (Main range) for the princely sum of £162 in 2020. Given inflation, etc, the TT:120 train sets look more and more like exceptionally good value. Especially when the free club membership discount is factored in, which brings the A4 trainset down to £165.32!  You get a bit more in the box compared to the Rocket train pack too.....

 

Never mind the quality, feel the width!

 

[AY Mod]

22 hours ago, RAF96 said:

I think you will find that...

 

Always an expression that makes it sound like the other person doesn't know what they're talking about.

[spamcan61]

49 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

A point to consider: both parties use the TT colon 120 nomenclature, not necessarily proof in isolation but the point that both use the same font for such (ITC Lubalin Graph, as used in Hornby's logo, in the branding indicates there's been some cooperation or that Peco are very, very savvy.

Of no great consequence,  I'm mildly surprised neither Peco nor Hornby appear to have registered TT:120 in that font as a trademark.

[leonk]

12 minutes ago, spamcan61 said:

Of no great consequence,  I'm mildly surprised neither Peco nor Hornby appear to have registered TT:120 in that font as a trademark.

That seems a sure fire way to scare off anyone else that might be thinking about getting involved.  

[irishmail]

39 minutes ago, Chris116 said:

The best running wagons in TT3 days were the Peco Wonderful Wagons which were very easy to build and looked good in a train even if some were not strictly prototypical. I wonder if Peco will produce any in TT:120?

There are the Parkside by Peco that could possibly be retooled to TT:120,  If they did I would certinally by a few kits.

[Hroth]

22 minutes ago, spamcan61 said:

Of no great consequence,  I'm mildly surprised neither Peco nor Hornby appear to have registered TT:120 in that font as a trademark.

 

10 minutes ago, leonk said:

That seems a sure fire way to scare off anyone else that might be thinking about getting involved.  

 

I'd suggest that Hornby want to appear helpful and inclusive. Registering it as a trademark would be counterproductive in getting British outline TT:120 accepted by other manufacturers.  As its now "prior use", it can't be grabbed by others.

 

[spamcan61]

26 minutes ago, leonk said:

That seems a sure fire way to scare off anyone else that might be thinking about getting involved.  

Which would probably be a result from Hornby's point of view.

Edited October 22, 2022 by spamcan61

[Flying Pig]

1 hour ago, Chris116 said:

The best running wagons in TT3 days were the Peco Wonderful Wagons which were very easy to build and looked good in a train even if some were not strictly prototypical. I wonder if Peco will produce any in TT:120?

 

More likely to downsize some of their plastic kits I'd think.  There were a few N scale wagons in the Parkside range so 1:120 is certainly possible.  On the other hand, they have an rtr mineral already in CAD so they may go down that route, akin to their N gauge wagons.   

[andythenorth]

2 hours ago, Chris116 said:

The best running wagons in TT3 days were the Peco Wonderful Wagons which were very easy to build and looked good in a train even if some were not strictly prototypical. I wonder if Peco will produce any in TT:120?

 

The Peco TT:120 launch video ends with products expected to be announced later, including RTR (presumably) wagons, alternative point radii, a crossover, and semaphore signals. 😉

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

3 hours ago, Hroth said:

Looking through some old purchase records, I find that I bought the R3810 Rocket train pack (Main range) for the princely sum of £162 in 2020. Given inflation, etc, the TT:120 train sets look more and more like exceptionally good value. Especially when the free club membership discount is factored in, which brings the A4 trainset down to £165.32!  You get a bit more in the box compared to the Rocket train pack too.....

 

Never mind the quality, feel the width!

 

One thing we always need to bear in mind when talking about manufacturer RRPs is that they are commercially set prices although ideally they should obviously cover costs if not actually make a bottom line contribution.  So basically many prices are set to not only covering costs, and a bit more, but also can be set to what the 'manufacturer' thinks the market will bear which in turn can be way ahead of making a minimum bottom line contribution.

 

With the new range Hornby are clearly trying to encourage buyers to get into the new market so they will price accordingly.  Inevitably, I hope, they won't be selling things at a loss but no doubt they will have budgeted fora lower level of contribution to the bottom line.   The club discount is in some respects similar to the discount some retailers give but a bit more generous and effectively amounts in some respects to Hornby sharing with their retail customer what would. otherwise have been lost in their discount on the price to a retailer.

 

Please don't think I'm criticising them because I'm not - I'm just pointing out that pricing is an important part of marketing.  And that is always going to be the case with something new where a supplier is seeking to establish and build from scratch a  completely new market.

[NHY 581]

5 hours ago, AY Mod said:

 

Always an expression that makes it sounds like the other person doesn't know what they're talking about.

 

 

In the same way as 'With the greatest respect....." indicates a complete lack of same.

[britishcolumbian]

5 hours ago, andythenorth said:

The Peco TT:120 launch video ends with products expected to be announced later, including RTR (presumably) wagons, alternative point radii, a crossover, and semaphore signals. 😉

So stuff to look forward to!

[Michanglais]

On 21/10/2022 at 08:08, NickC said:

According to their website (https://support.Hornby.com/hc/en-gb/articles/4403093130770-New-improved-and-easier-ordering-from-EU-countries#h_01F9EJFTASBXC5GKWJKRCBEP8F) they are VAT registered in France.

 

Hmmmm, I guess I'll just have to see when I put an order through - holding off for the moment until I get a better idea of quality, etc.

 

Cheers,

Michael

[Les1952]

11 hours ago, AY Mod said:

 

A point to consider: both parties use the TT colon 120 nomenclature, not necessarily proof in isolation but the point that both use the same font for such (ITC Lubalin Graph, as used in Hornby's logo, in the branding indicates there's been some cooperation or that Peco are very, very savvy.

 

There is a lot of evidence out there that Peco are much more "savvy" than a lot of folks give them credit for- probably why they are still very much in business.....

 

Les

[Pacific231G]

11 hours ago, spamcan61 said:

Of no great consequence,  I'm mildly surprised neither Peco nor Hornby appear to have registered TT:120 in that font as a trademark.

TT:120 is a slightly odd term, a bit like H0:87 would be, and essentially a tautology since the scale for TT is 1:120. I can understand why it's being used  though as Tri-ang mudied the waters in 1957 by describing their 3mm/ft scale  product as TT. Peco sensibly coined the term TT-3 but were a bit vague about their track which was sometimes referred to as TT and sometimes as TT-3 (though anyone modelling in 1:120 scale would have used it quite happily. 

I don't know whether Hal Joyce ever trademarked "TT" but suspect not as he encouraged other manufacturers such as Kemtron to use his new tenth of an inch to the foot scale as well.

[Dunsignalling]

7 hours ago, Pacific231G said:

TT:120 is a slightly odd term, a bit like H0:87 would be, and essentially a tautology since the scale for TT is 1:120. I can understand why it's being used  though as Tri-ang mudied the waters in 1957 by describing their 3mm/ft scale  product as TT. Peco sensibly coined the term TT-3 but were a bit vague about their track which was sometimes referred to as TT and sometimes as TT-3 (though anyone modelling in 1:120 scale would have used it quite happily. 

I don't know whether Hal Joyce ever trademarked "TT" but suspect not as he encouraged other manufacturers such as Kemtron to use his new tenth of an inch to the foot scale as well.

Whilst the term is tautological to those accustomed only to "international" TT, in the UK, it can mean two different scales and up to three track gauges, depending on the preference of the practitioner.

 

Also, of course, just as "Hornby" is synonymous for many with "model trains", "TT" means "TT-3" to most Brits old enough to remember it, because we've rarely been exposed to anything else. After its commercial demise, it was 3mm/ft scale that was perpetuated by its devotees with the gauge being altered by those who wanted greater accuracy.  

 

I'd therefore consider the use of the comprehensive "TT:120" to be essential in the UK to avoid confusion.

 

John

Edited October 23, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[Hroth]

We could simplify the nomenclature a little...

 

TTi = TT:120,  TT international

TT3 = legacy Triang TT @ 3mm ft, 12mm gauge

TTp = TT prototype @ 3mm ft, whatever gauge*

 

* Sorry I can't recall what the enlarged gauges are...

 

Edited October 23, 2022 by Hroth
Dropping some parentheses...