Local council wants to use East Lancs as a commuter line

[Wickham Green too]

11 minutes ago, RJS1977 said:

... of course a solar panel doesn't exactly have a heritage look to it!

Just build a 'heritage' P-Way hut under it ! 😕

[KingEdwardII]

Not all aspects of the past are faithfully rendered on Heritage lines, despite the great efforts of the volunteers. One of the more obvious examples are the telegraph poles and strands of wires between them, which were a ubiquitous element of the railways in steam days. Seldom do the poles ever appear, while the wires are today buried underground following modern practice.

 

Yours, Mike.

[phil-b259]

On 18/10/2022 at 08:57, Wheatley said:

Barnsley Jumble Lane had traffic lights from modernisation with barriers in 1974 to closure the other year

 

Traffic lights for road junctions that are also linked in with level crossings (to prevent cars waiting at a red light blocking the crossing) are pretty common across the UK.

 

Technically what occurs is the road traffic signal controller has an input from the railway signalling called 'phase advance' which will trigger the lights to move to a sequence which firstly clears the crossing of any traffic then makes sure the phase(s) which involve road traffic passing over the crossing are skipped.

 

However said level crossings will still have their own wig-wag signals. This is for several reasons including:-

 

(1) wig-wags present an absolute stop instruction to EVRERYONE (including 'blue light' response vehicles which are permitted to treat red traffic lights as 'give way' signs)

(2) they will be designed to be activated the moment a SPAD occurs regardless of what the traffic lights may be doing in an attempt to stop people from getting into the path of the errant train

(3) if the link to the highways authority signals fails to work then trains can still run as the wig-wags will still be functional and even if its slightly confusing you have top be a pretty stupid motorist to not realise two stonking red flashing lights means stop.

 

Therefore traffic lights which are there ONLY for the level crossing - and particularly a level crossing which doesn't have wig-wags is exceedingly rare - and is not something that would be allowed on the national rail network.

Edited October 19, 2022 by phil-b259

[TheSignalEngineer]

4 hours ago, RJS1977 said:

These days it might not be impossible to illuminate a remote signal using a solar panel and battery, although of course a solar panel doesn't exactly have a heritage look to it!

Been there, done that in 1968.

[phil-b259]

4 hours ago, pete_mcfarlane said:

Moor Street is another great example of this, where they've got a modern accessible station to look like it's from the 1930s.  

 

Yes and no.

 

I don't recall LED departure boards / platform displays being a feature of a 1930s station - nor did such stations feature tactile paving strips on the platforms nor automatic ticket gates, etc...

 

On the other hand the way the buildings have been restored / painted does give a superficial 1930s feel - but its not as 1930s as say Horsted Keynes station is fixture and fittings wise.

 

4 hours ago, RJS1977 said:

 

And I was just about to suggest Hanwell, which despite electrification and installation of lifts, still maintains a heritage look.

 

Heritage 'feel' is probably a better description - there is no disguising the OLE or other modern trappings.

[Wickham Green too]

9 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

... you have top be a pretty stupid motorist to not realise two stonking red flashing lights means stop. ...

There's a whole thread hereabouts that exists because of pretty stupid motorists. 🙄

[Chris116]

I think the Romney, Hythe and Dymchurch Railway would have plenty to say about motorists who ignore flashing red lights!

[Michael Hodgson]

11 hours ago, KingEdwardII said:

Not all aspects of the past are faithfully rendered on Heritage lines, despite the great efforts of the volunteers. One of the more obvious examples are the telegraph poles and strands of wires between them, which were a ubiquitous element of the railways in steam days. Seldom do the poles ever appear, while the wires are today buried underground following modern practice.

 

Yours, Mike.

When they do take the trouble to wire telegraph poles as I believe the GCR did at Loughboro, they don't last long.  Either wires get stolen or they suffer from damage and climbing poles for repairs is too specialised a job for preserved lines to ask their usual maintenance team to do.  I do remember a short length in the grounds at the late Sir William McAlpine's Fawley Hill Railway - that had been specially erected by a telephone enthusiast.

[The Stationmaster]

21 hours ago, Reorte said:

 

Curious on the electric lights, that that would have to be done. Whilst I'd be extremely surprised if there were any oil lamps left anywhere on the national network I'd assumed that would be purely for practical reasons, to the point where I'd be surprised if there was anything else left to make a rule about.

Nothing to do with a rule but more a matter of visibility and practical economy.  Electric lights in signal lamps means you don't need a Lampman and you get a good, consistent, light.  I haven't got a clue if the ELR use electricity or oil for their signal lamps but they do some night time running so presumab;y they need something.

 

20 hours ago, uax6 said:

 

But don't under-estimate just how much it would cost to have a power feed to the location would cost.... a couple of years back our Parish paid 16K for a feed to a lampost, and I was quoted £1k to have a feed removed from a house....

 

Andy G

The WR started converting all the semaphores in Cornwall to electric lights back in the early 1990s but I suspect there were very few where there was no sort of power supply at all.  and all the dustmnts standing alone had by then all been converted to colour lights. (I don't know if any of those relied on battery power>

 

The technology has come on since then of course - every Trinity House shipping buoy and lighthouse round the coasts of England and Wales uses LEDs with solar cell recharging for the batteries.  The buoys are only checked once a year and the time between servicing visits can be as long as 18 months but they do have some remote monitpring as well.  So solar generation to reliably recharge batteries isn't difficult.

[KingEdwardII]

6 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

they don't last long

Yes - telegraph poles are a thankless task for nothing more than window dressing. Far better to spend energy and money on the stuff that's needed to actually run the railway and then the near-at-hand stuff that can give stations and working buildings the authentic look.

 

Yours,  Mike.

[APOLLO]

Well, little did I know I travelled on the first test of the proposed commuter express from Rawtenstall back in July. Felix kept bang on time over this difficult route !!!! (The run was disguised as an ELR Diesel Gala day).

 

 

I also saw the testing that very day for the proposed (but hush hush) 75mph heavy freight trains. Hauling well over a thousand tons of finest Black Puddings from Bury to Heywood (and on to the world !!) was this fine Class 60. There was also a coachload of Tripe at the front !!.

 

Alas I missed the GMPTE Gravy Train.

 

 

Brit15

[Wheatley]

I'm reasonably sure at least some of the lamps on the S&C were 24v, run off what looked like a bit of bell wire running up the cess from batteries (and a charger) in the box. So the cost wasn't much more than 800 yards of low amperage cable. 

 

 

[adb968008]

On 15/10/2022 at 21:36, TheSignalEngineer said:

 

Or perhaps even earlier 03-08-2011

Come along way since this picture in 1988

 

Edited October 19, 2022 by adb968008

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, APOLLO said:

Well, little did I know I travelled on the first test of the proposed commuter express from Rawtenstall back in July. Felix kept bang on time over this difficult route !!!! (The run was disguised as an ELR Diesel Gala day).

 

 

I also saw the testing that very day for the proposed (but hush hush) 75mph heavy freight trains. Hauling well over a thousand tons of finest Black Puddings from Bury to Heywood (and on to the world !!) was this fine Class 60. There was also a coachload of Tripe at the front !!.

 

Alas I missed the GMPTE Gravy Train.

 

 

Brit15

 

a few ELR commuter services…

D2595 on 3 Coaches October 1988 Ramsbottom

 

You could goto Victoria and ride identical stock the same day, this is a real preservation scene, not a railtour… all was preserved.

 

 

This to me was the sad one that got away, True Bury history, proper commuter stock and a 4 coach rake. The 25 in the middle was fun, but it could have been ordinary hauled stock. I hope the surviving one makes it, theres very little Wolverton EMU heritage left.

 

 

 

Edited October 19, 2022 by adb968008

[Nick C]

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Nothing to do with a rule but more a matter of visibility and practical economy.  Electric lights in signal lamps means you don't need a Lampman and you get a good, consistent, light.  I haven't got a clue if the ELR use electricity or oil for their signal lamps but they do some night time running so presumab;y they need something.

 

The WR started converting all the semaphores in Cornwall to electric lights back in the early 1990s but I suspect there were very few where there was no sort of power supply at all.  and all the dustmnts standing alone had by then all been converted to colour lights. (I don't know if any of those relied on battery power>

 

The technology has come on since then of course - every Trinity House shipping buoy and lighthouse round the coasts of England and Wales uses LEDs with solar cell recharging for the batteries.  The buoys are only checked once a year and the time between servicing visits can be as long as 18 months but they do have some remote monitpring as well.  So solar generation to reliably recharge batteries isn't difficult.

Plus removing the need for a lamp and also removes the need for someone to work regularly at height, which saves a fair bit of risk.

 

All the MHR semaphore signals were converted to LED a few years ago. They already all had cabling going to them for the arm and lamp repeaters anyway, so no big deal to add another pair.

[SHMD]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

 

a few ELR commuter services…

D2595 on 3 Coaches October 1988 Ramsbottom

 

You could goto Victoria and ride identical stock the same day, this is a real preservation scene, not a railtour… all was preserved.

 

 

This to me was the sad one that got away, True Bury history, proper commuter stock and a 4 coach rake. The 25 in the middle was fun, but it could have been ordinary hauled stock. I hope the surviving one makes it, theres very little Wolverton EMU heritage left.

 

 

 

 

If I recall correctly, this 4 coach train could have been driven from any one of the 6 cabs.

 

 

Kev.

 

[Reorte]

9 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

When they do take the trouble to wire telegraph poles as I believe the GCR did at Loughboro, they don't last long.  Either wires get stolen or they suffer from damage and climbing poles for repairs is too specialised a job for preserved lines to ask their usual maintenance team to do.  I do remember a short length in the grounds at the late Sir William McAlpine's Fawley Hill Railway - that had been specially erected by a telephone enthusiast.

Perhaps they could string some bits of thin rope up instead of wire to discourage the thieves, but I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't worth the effort because they'd probably trash those too.

[APOLLO]

41 minutes ago, Reorte said:

Perhaps they could string some bits of thin rope up instead of wire to discourage the thieves, but I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't worth the effort because they'd probably trash those too.

 

Run barbed wire at 25Kv - THAT would deter them !!!!!

 

Brit15

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, SHMD said:

 

 

If I recall correctly, this 4 coach train could have been driven from any one of the 6 cabs.

 

 

Kev.

 

Yes, the person I think who did the work I still frequents here.

[RJS1977]

Back on topic - here's a question:

 

I can remember certain heritage railways running an "early bird" heritage service - diesel hauled/DMU, usually at a reduced fare.

 

If a particular heritage railway wanted to run such a service at say 8am, with a return service at 6pm, at what point would it become a commuter service (rather than a heritage service) and lose various derogations to things such as DDA that heritage services are exempt from.

 

Would it be:

(a) When the service is run every day, irrespective of whether there were other heritage services that day?

(b) When the heritage railway asks the relevant local authorities to subsidise the service?

(c) When it is advertised as a commuter service?

[phil-b259]

13 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

There's a whole thread hereabouts that exists because of pretty stupid motorists. 🙄

 

13 hours ago, Chris116 said:

I think the Romney, Hythe and Dymchurch Railway would have plenty to say about motorists who ignore flashing red lights!

True, but for the majority of folk two flashing reds = stop.

 

Which would you rather have? everyone put at risk from a SPAD or only a stupid minority?

 

You also need to remember the significant legal differences between ‘traffic lights’ and wig wags.

[TheSignalEngineer]

2 hours ago, Reorte said:

Perhaps they could string some bits of thin rope up instead of wire to discourage the thieves, but I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't worth the effort because they'd probably trash those too.

Back in the 1960s we had a lot of line wire thefts along the Camp Hill line in Birmingham. As the line was being resignalled we replaced the wires with galvanised fence wire we got off the Pway. There was only one more attempt at theft which was abandoned when they realised what we had done.

Another favourite was to take track crcuit bonds, many of which were still copper in those days. By that time we were using iron for them. The thieves would go along scraping each bond to find which ones were worth stealing. 

When new cables for MAS were being laid they started disappearing almost immediately. We wired alarm circuits through them to the signal box so a bell rang if they were cut. Power cables were connected to the 650v supply as soon as we could, which had a remarkable effect on the number of thefts. We found a melted hacksaw blade embedded in one, bet it gave the holder a bit of a tingling sensation.

[TheSignalEngineer]

5 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

You also need to remember the significant legal differences between ‘traffic lights’ and wig wags.

I've only ever experienced standard traffic lights with gates, never with open or auto barrier crossings. The advantage with gates is that there is a large obstruction across the road and the signals are not cleared until they are closed to road traffic and the signalman can see that the crossing is clear.

[phil-b259]

45 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

 The advantage with gates is that there is a large obstruction across the road and the signals are not cleared until they are closed to road traffic and the signalman can see that the crossing is clear.

 

That doesn't stop motorists trying to beat the gates and injuring the signaller / gatekeeperas they try and close them! And when they do there is actually not a lot the motorists can be charged with as regards road traffic laws.

 

Thats why there are several gated crossing equipped with wig-wags now, sometimes with red light cameras so as to try and enforce compliance. At places where they have been installed the number of 'near misses' or injuries suffered by signallers / gatekeepers has dropped significantly.

 

East Farleigh (now replaced by full barriers) https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.2554184,0.4845494,3a,75y,213.6h,64.9t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s1E0LOz4TtzZTozKcjBKrtw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

 

Littlehaven (also now replaced) https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.0796161,-0.3076175,3a,75y,351.91h,91.44t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sYw4VuMmVmsw6D4tMOT959g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

 

Hilton (installed after the NR operator suffered life changing injuries when struck by a motorist trying to beat the gates) https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.8628182,-1.6142352,3a,75y,34.27h,78.08t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1shzpl9_l5fvlnJebGsp-RgQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

 

Lakenheath (now replaced) https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.4472311,0.5355287,3a,75y,37.41h,89.01t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s1oe_94s2ds505qG5vlsCDQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

 

Grain https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4460357,0.6792916,3a,75y,72.49h,68.89t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sYE9rIjG4d4ZUGXsfmnqjfQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

 

 

 

Edited October 19, 2022 by phil-b259

[Wheatley]

2 hours ago, RJS1977 said:

Back on topic - here's a question:

 

I can remember certain heritage railways running an "early bird" heritage service - diesel hauled/DMU, usually at a reduced fare.

 

If a particular heritage railway wanted to run such a service at say 8am, with a return service at 6pm, at what point would it become a commuter service (rather than a heritage service) and lose various derogations to things such as DDA that heritage services are exempt from.

 

Would it be:

(a) When the service is run every day, irrespective of whether there were other heritage services that day?

(b) When the heritage railway asks the relevant local authorities to subsidise the service?

(c) When it is advertised as a commuter service?

Provided the heritage operator is operating entirely on its own infrastructure and within the terms of its Light Railway Order or Transport Works Order it can run the trains at whatever times and frequency it likes.

 

But what's being proposed here is a franchised* operator operating over a mixture of Network Rail and private metals. To make that commercially viable (or even merely practicable) might require higher speeds than the 25mph generally allowed by a LRO/TWO which might then require the alterations to track and signalling being discussed. No-one is going to use it if it takes an hour to do the first 12 miles.

 

*(Or whatever replaces franchises long term)