Local council wants to use East Lancs as a commuter line

[woodenhead]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-63180720

 

Interesting article, Rossendale Council think it would be beneficial to use the ELR as a commuter line, whilst preserving the existing preservation.

 

ELR not too happy, I imagine it's going to create some issues for them.  On the surface it sounds like a good idea and obviously would help the ELR in some manner, but I am guessing there will be downsides when basically you have a local council doing an almost compulsory take over of your property and you may find you lose what you had.

 

Thoughts?

[4630]

It’ll be interesting to see how this progresses.

 

Hopefully the long term future, viability and development plans of the ELR can continue. 
 

As three local authorities are the land owners though, I imagine that will give them significant influence over the eventual outcome.

 

East Lancashire Railway Trust.

[Oldddudders]

Playing trains, which is what most volunteers join a preservation society to do, has in recent years become a rather more serious occupation than in the heady days of the '60s and '70s. All sorts of legal stipulations about what and who and when, and loads of paperwork, which is certainly not what those volunteers thought they were getting into. So the business of running a regular service should be less of a step-change than heretofore. 

 

As a retired railwayman, I delight in hearing such proposals. To me, railways are about providing a service for the benefit of communities, not Thomas Days and Diesel Weekends. Re-opening a line is always to be encouraged. The effect on ELR membership will be interesting, and may reduce the appeal for some.

 

Playing trains or running a real service? Every member must choose. 

 

Edit " in July, a survey found there was overwhelming support for a new link between East Lancashire and Manchester." Of course it did. Everyone loves new railways, because all the other people will catch the train and they will be able to enjoy roads w less traffic!

Edited October 10, 2022 by Oldddudders

[woodenhead]

So the ELR is just a tenant, I guess where things might get sticky is how they look at the service.

 

A mainline connection to Victoria via Castleton is fast but what if Metrolink make some sort of offer, it's not as though the ELR isn't still linked to the Metrolink route - the junction is still there for infrastructure trains.

 

A mainline commuter service would be the simplest, operating outside core ELR hours though with some overlap in the evenings or if it operates for shoppers too.  Track standards would not doubt have to be lifted too I suspect if it is to be operated like any other railway and with reasonable speeds too.

 

Is there anywhere that has done this successfully before, or will the ELR simply be very constrained as to it's ability to run trains outside a very restricted window taking away the chance to have 4 day galas.

[Wickham Green too]

3 hours ago, woodenhead said:

... and with reasonable speeds too. ...

I can't see the commuters being too happy pottering along at 25mph max Light Railway speed.

[The Stationmaster]

Provided a suitable timetable can be devised (hardly an imposition I would have thought) the real problem will be cost and who bears the cost.  As the council wants the trains then presumably they would bear the cost of providing and running those trains - which the ELR might get involved in asa sub-contractor or it might not.

 

The only other problem is what is permitted by the Light R but there are legal ways to deal with most of that apart from the maximum permitted speed.   As OD has already noted in terms of legal requirements applying to the ELR, the safety of its operations, engineering standards, and staff safety etc plus the documentation are in reality little different from those applying to any railway operator/infrastructure owner in the UK.  And equally all that has really changed is in terms of documentation and records rather than what they should be doing although I'd be the first to say - from having seen it elsewhere in the leisure/preservation sector - that plenty of such railways weren't very good at doing what they were supposed to have been doing all along.   (N.B., I don't necessarily include the ELR in that as I don't know anything about them in that respect - but I'd be happy to audit them if they wish 😇).

 

So I can't see any real problem apart from possibly in timetable integration and restricted maximum line speed imposed by a LRO.

Edited October 10, 2022 by The Stationmaster
typos

[Siberian Snooper]

Lots of things to take into consideration when changing from a heritage railway with limited operating days and times, than operating a daily service.

 

Staffing outside of the voluntary hours, additional infrastructure work due to additional use. Trains and the crew to operate them. I would think that very little, if any of the ESR stock can operate on Network Rail and would it be suitable.

 

In the past the Railway Inspectorate could authorize line speeds, upto 60 mph, but the case for doing so had to be very compelling and the level of inspection would be considerably higher than the basic 25 mph.

 

I would think that the council(s), would want to operate at least an hourly service, such that the 1st train would arrive in Manchester some time before 8 am and a last train from Manchester, not earlier than 6.30 pm and probably later and then thread heritage trains in amongst it at the standard 25 mph on operating days will cause some headaches, especially if there's a failure of any sort.

 

 

[Wickham Green too]

Signalling ! ......... The Council / TOC drivers would have to be taught that those funny red or yellow tin things waving about on posts don't exactly work in the same way as TPWS.

[Mallard60022]

I think a couple ofl Heritage lines (K & WVR?) run School Trains, or did? The RH & DR certainly used to.

P

[adb968008]

The Signalling and Level crossings would have to be replaced for a start.

 

The LMS stone platform surfaces replaced with tactile paving and latest standards.

 

Track is 70 odd years old in the most part, BR run down the line from the 1960’s and closed it in 1972.. but it wasn’t lifted. ELR has only replaced and added as needed.

 

lifts would be needed at Summerseat.

 

A lot of ambiance of a heritage railway would be lost (one could argue the ELR doesn’t have a lot of it anyway), but most of what they’ve built would need to go.

 

Then who has control over the line, and at what times of the day, and what standard does the stock and locos need to be maintained to inorder to use the line.. Network Rail are going to want it to their standard, and is any local government really going to sign off any standard seen as any less ?

 

On the flip side, Rossendale valley has bad traffic problems, poor connectivity and bringing a railway line will increase prosperity (property values, raising income levels, extra taxes etc).. you can see why Rossendale want it.

 

Theres no real benefit to Bury or Heywood, so probably won’t get any real support from those authorities, let alone financial support to it. Politics is politics however.. All 3 constituencies are Tory, levelling up agenda, railways for the North etc… I would imagine Support in the party exists and so more funding to waste more money on studies will probably be forthcoming.. so until the next election it might be squeaky.

As for for the ELR, being on bad terms with your landlord is never a good thing. Tbh it might be better to go along with it, take the funding money and play the long game.. Rossendale could get awkward about the lease of the line from stubbins onwards if they wanted to force their case.. that helps no one.

if I dared be a visionary here, a park and ride at Ewood Bridge, to connect to the A-road which causes all the tailbacks may be a good solution.  With a dedicated station, and run direct to Manchester, maybe 1 stop in Bury, or alternatively a Battery tram running direct to a Buckley Wells tram interchange and onward would seem least disruptive and solve the traffic issue. Their is precedent for this at the Harz. 
Running to Rawtenstall wouldnt seem sensible, no parking, bad location and 2 extra level crossings. Neither would upgrading stations like Irwell Vale, Summerseat with low populations. Ramsbottom, whilst big on the ELR operation is also a poor option for commuting, again limited parking, poor roads. it was the car afterall that closed this line, that fundamental hasnt changed. Its the crowded motorway to Manchester thats the issue, not the villages along the line.

 

 

Edited October 10, 2022 by adb968008

[keefer]

i just hope the Councils don't try to force the issue, just for the sake of any of their 'policies'.

i.e. The ELR upgraded (ruined? 🙂) to full modern, main-line standards etc. and then it turns out that whatever's enacted isn't actually that viable - and they push it through anyway.

The ELR must be a major earner for the region (tourism), i hope that that counts for something.

I do hope the Councils aren't so naive to look at this as a cheap-and-easy solution to providing a real 'new' railway (i.e. the trains and tracks are there already, why not just use them for commuters?!)

Edited October 10, 2022 by keefer

[phil-b259]

45 minutes ago, keefer said:

i just hope the Councils don't try to force the issue, just for the sake of any of their 'policies'.

i.e. The ELR upgraded (ruined? 🙂) to full modern, main-line standards etc. and then it turns out that whatever's enacted isn't actually that viable - and they push it through anyway.

The ELR must be a major earner for the region (tourism), i hope that that counts for something.

I do hope the Councils aren't so naive to look at this as a cheap-and-easy solution to providing a real 'new' railway (i.e. the trains and tracks are there already, why not just use them for commuters?!)

 

To be honest once the councils realise exactly how much its going to cost them to upgrade / pay for staff (and there is no way the DfT will come close to covering the bill) the scheme will be dropped.

 

From the ELRs point of view I would suggest they adopt a 'Do you think that is wise' tone and 'throw in lots of "yes, but..." into the mix...

[keefer]

9 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

From the ELRs point of view I would suggest they adopt a 'Do you think that is wise' tone and 'throw in lots of "yes, but..." into the mix...

Depends on how much of a Wainwaring they are dealing with......

Of course you'd hope that, once the futility of their ideas is pointed out to them, they'd have the sense to say "I was wondering when anyone would notice that...."

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

 

To be honest once the councils realise exactly how much its going to cost them to upgrade / pay for staff (and there is no way the DfT will come close to covering the bill) the scheme will be dropped.

 

From the ELRs point of view I would suggest they adopt a 'Do you think that is wise' tone and 'throw in lots of "yes, but..." into the mix...

I think the cheapest option is some kind of Battery powered tram, than runs from Metrolink to Buckley Wells and onto Ewood Bridge with a park and ride solution… but that in itself would be insanely expensive in 20’s of £mns inc the required road works, in addition to rail works. It could maybe use the Bury p4 Bay ( some how) when the ELR is running, and offer connections there instead.

If the ELR wanted to make a quick buck and kill off this idea, by encouraging Rossendale council to fund a trial.. hire that class 230 to  run a 6 week winter shuttle from Ramsbottom to Manchester, via Rochdale (no level crossings required and route could be locked out). This would be its lowest cost possible for two am/pm runs a day Monday to Friday, in the off season for mid-week running… ( commuters dont have seasons) and see exactly what revenue is generated….

 

When the revenue is near nil, then it would be dead, but the ELR could earn some short term extra-revenue by sub-hiring the line and stock as a package, and be seen to be cooperating, by playing the game. The politicians get to flag wave a solution for their election manifestos, Rossendale gets to show its had results of a study that says No. And enthusiasts get to see a Class 230 climb Miles Platting which would be entertaining too.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 10, 2022 by adb968008

[Wickham Green too]

9 hours ago, adb968008 said:

...  And enthusiasts get to see a Class 230 climb Miles Platting which would be entertaining too.

Not my idea of a Santa Special ! 🙄

[Stuart A]

From living near the line for 16 years, it's become clear that the ELR only operate for tourists and are not interested in helping the local communities along the line.

 

I suggested to them a few years back to introduce a cheaper 2 or 3 stop residents ticket (you can purchase a 2 year residents pass for £22 which entitles you to a full line return for £9.50 with child at £6.50, or more expensive day rover)

If I jump on at Ramsbottom with my 3 kids, it's £29 return to Bury or Rawtenstall.  Non starter.

 

I'm sure there could be a compromise like a few have said above by using 230s or battery LRT

 

There is quite a bit of parking a Rawtenstall - busy at weekend but not so much during the day.  There is the large site next to the loop at Ramsbottom which could be used for parking.

 

There are solutions out there, but as I've said there isn't any apetite from the railway  to consider needs of residents.

 

Although I did read in the last chairmans newsletter, more drivers are being trained on the 144........

[Michael Hodgson]

In my view it would be an excellent idea, but it is unlikely to get anywhere.  The timetabling issue shouldn't be an problem since commuters are mostly Monday-Friday and enthusiast are primarily weekend operation only.  In practice commuters are rush-hour only, but you have to offer a service all day, and that means rolling stock usage is only morning and evening.  Fares have to be more affordable for commuters than tourists are prepared to pay for a day out on a steam train, so you'd need different ticket prices depending on which train you're catching.

 

Cost is also a major issue.  The reason these lines were closed in the first place is the wage bill and the capital cost of rolling stock.  Who will bear the cost of shared infrastructure - maintenance of P/way, signalling, modern ticketing etc?   Many local authorities are opposed to rail, whilst a handful of councils are strongly in favour; that's down to individual personalities in office at any point in time.   With sufficient funding and goodwill on both sides a practical solution allowing routine and heritage operations to co-exist may well be feasible.

 

But the real killer is central government.   Local authority finances are tightly restricted by central government.  The present administration isn't going to give them the funds and won't allow them to raise very much themselves because of potential impact on council tax etc., and whilst a future Labour government may be sympathetic, they too have other priorities for use of money.

[roythebus1]

Someone earlier mentioned Network Rail involvement. Why should they need to get involved except for the connection between the ELR and NR? I'm not familiar with the railway, the area or it layout, but I don't see the need to upgrade signalling with TWPS etc unless line speeds dictate it in line with national standards.

 

We already have through trains on the Swanage line; Luxembourg City has trams that operate on OHLE and battery power when in the city centre, that technology already exists. There's nothing new in the proposals that hasn't already been invented. It's all achievable if the will and the finance is there to do so. 

 

Luxembourg tram 

Edited October 11, 2022 by roythebus1

[roythebus1]

Luxembourg trams have batteries on the roof.

[IWCR]

Light Railway  Orders  are  history,  all  lines  operates  under  more  recent  legislation  now,  the  line  speed  is  set  for  each  line,  25  mph  being  a  normal  break  point  which  is  treated  closer  to  a  tramway  with  line  of  site  operation.  Above  this  much  stricter  requirements  come  in.  (Better  track  maintenance,  more  rigorous  Signalling/train  control,  more  control  of  Crossings,  central  locking,  etc).

Network  Rail  requirements  would  not  apply   (The  line  is  not  Network  Rail).  The  line  could  operate  as  a  traditional  manually  signalled  line  with  a  higher  linespeed  for approved  stock  but  this  would  be  labour  intensive  and  likely  require many  additional  paid  staff,  there  is  a  reason  for  the  "Basic  Railway".

A  public  service  over  a  Heritage  Railway?,  yes  it  could  be  done.  Viable?  depends  on  many  factors.

Passing  the  line  to  Network  Rail  as  part  of  the  National  Network  would  effectively  finish  the  Heritage  Operation,  if  this  was  really  wanted  then  a  equivilant  nearby  length  of  closed  line  should  be  prepared  and  relaid  as  a  replacement,  (not  going  to  happen).

 

Pete

[phil-b259]

6 hours ago, roythebus1 said:

Someone earlier mentioned Network Rail involvement. Why should they need to get involved except for the connection between the ELR and NR? I'm not familiar with the railway, the area or it layout, but I don't see the need to upgrade signalling with TWPS etc unless line speeds dictate it in line with national standards.

 

 

Because the current speeds and end to end journey time the ELR infrastructure can support is far too low to encourage modal shift away from cars!

 

That basic fact means that there will have to be considerable upgrading to something close to NR standards (thereby allowing faster journey times via higher speeds).

 

That in turn would not only be very expensive - it would radically alter the look, feel and ambiance of the railway as it currently exists.

 

6 hours ago, roythebus1 said:

 

We already have through trains on the Swanage line; 

 

 

No we don't! (at least not least in the way these councillors want).

 

Yes SWR ran a few summer Saturday services (one train out, one train back) to Corfe Castle, services that were squarely aimed at day trippers NOT local commuters and yes there have been the occasional charters coming to Swanage off the network - but both are very different to what is being proposed for the ELR.

 

Its also true that a few years ago the Swanage railway / Dorset CC was given a grant to enable a trial commuter service - then Covid hit and its had to be postponed to 2023 as a result - and with the dramatic fall in commuting seen across the rail network there are serious doubts it would be anything like commercially viable once the trail ends and the subsidy is gone.

 

Also you should take note that  NYMR to Whitby is NOT a commuter operation - its a straight tourist / leisure service which complements (not changes the character of the NYMR - and something that caters for that market is going to be a far better fit for Swanage. 

Edited October 11, 2022 by phil-b259

[The Stationmaster]

10 hours ago, IWCR said:

Light Railway  Orders  are  history,  all  lines  operates  under  more  recent  legislation  now,  the  line  speed  is  set  for  each  line,  25  mph  being  a  normal  break  point  which  is  treated  closer  to  a  tramway  with  line  of  site  operation.  Above  this  much  stricter  requirements  come  in.  (Better  track  maintenance,  more  rigorous  Signalling/train  control,  more  control  of  Crossings,  central  locking,  etc).

Network  Rail  requirements  would  not  apply   (The  line  is  not  Network  Rail).  The  line  could  operate  as  a  traditional  manually  signalled  line  with  a  higher  linespeed  for approved  stock  but  this  would  be  labour  intensive  and  likely  require many  additional  paid  staff,  there  is  a  reason  for  the  "Basic  Railway".

A  public  service  over  a  Heritage  Railway?,  yes  it  could  be  done.  Viable?  depends  on  many  factors.

Passing  the  line  to  Network  Rail  as  part  of  the  National  Network  would  effectively  finish  the  Heritage  Operation,  if  this  was  really  wanted  then  a  equivilant  nearby  length  of  closed  line  should  be  prepared  and  relaid  as  a  replacement,  (not  going  to  happen).

 

Pete

As  I posted above there are (legal) ways round the 25mph limit but it does depend on the wording of the LRO.  Effectively all you need to do is carry out the necessary review and risk assessments of track and maintenance regime plus siting/sighting of signals and the signalling arrangements and you can probably write the necessary into  a suitable list of requirements and Instructions to allow certain trains with modern brakes etc to run at a higher speed.  But it will impact on track maintenance standards and costs so it will reuire investment and revenue support.

 

The matter of level crossings is again relatively simple.  The traffic moment for each crossing would have to be reassessed to take into account of additional trains plus any increase in linespeeds would also obviouslyneed to be considered.  This might require new Level Crossing Orders and they, in turn, could require physical alteration to the equipment and controls at the various level crossings which would impose a timetable for the work to be carried out and would - if changes are needed - involve a cost (plus an ongoing maintenance cost).

 

None of all this sort of stuff is actually difficult but it would be expensive.  There are a number of consultancies which could carry out the various studies and assessments  and estimate the costs of any work required.  But they don't come cheap and that cost alone will run into tens of thousands of £s so I wonder if the councils actually have the money to even pay for that stage of the process?.  The work isn't rocket science for those who know how to do it and it isn't difficult to arrive at a series of recommendations against what the councils actually say they want - assuming the know what they want and are prepared to pay for it.

 

We are talking about 12-13 miles of railway are therefore probably going to be looking at a minimum line speed of 60mph (except where physical factors need a lower restriction).   depending on the condition of the current track and formation/drainage  getting that into the right sort of order for commuter train running might cost around £12-13 million assuming relaying a high proportion of it.   Signalling works costs - using existing signalling with resited/revised distant signals would be around £10K maximum (Unless NR get involve but it would be in any case be higher using normal estimates - it all depends on who does the work.   BTW that excludes any power supply provision if colour light distants are to be provided).  Adding TPWS, even to a minimum fit would cost a lot, lot more.   Signal operating costs would be 'substantial' if 2 turns are required 5 days a week.   Level crossing capital costs unknown but could easily run well into a 5 figure sum at each crossing.   Station works not included either - extent unknown to me.

 

Financially I reckon any council who could afford to bring in the necessary consultants will be frightened off by the capital costs long before they got to operating costs and revenue.

Edited October 11, 2022 by The Stationmaster

[pete_mcfarlane]

Schemes like this always seem like a solution looking for a problem.

[phil-b259]

7 hours ago, Stuart A said:

From living near the line for 16 years, it's become clear that the ELR only operate for tourists and are not interested in helping the local communities along the line.

 

I suggested to them a few years back to introduce a cheaper 2 or 3 stop residents ticket (you can purchase a 2 year residents pass for £22 which entitles you to a full line return for £9.50 with child at £6.50, or more expensive day rover)

If I jump on at Ramsbottom with my 3 kids, it's £29 return to Bury or Rawtenstall.  Non starter.

 

I'm sure there could be a compromise like a few have said above by using 230s or battery LRT

 

There is quite a bit of parking a Rawtenstall - busy at weekend but not so much during the day.  There is the large site next to the loop at Ramsbottom which could be used for parking.

 

There are solutions out there, but as I've said there isn't any apetite from the railway  to consider needs of residents.

 

Although I did read in the last chairmans newsletter, more drivers are being trained on the 144........

 

While I don't doubt you are correct in your observations on a local level*, this proposal is more about providing a service from the ELR into central Manchester!

 

That is rather different to a 'local line for local people' setup which you are envisaging - for starters the journey time has to be significantly better than can currently be achieved by car.

 

* That said you do seem to be forgetting that the ELR is not subsidised by the taxpayer! Even with the use of volunteer labour its a basic fact that railways are very expensive things to operate - particularly ones using 60 year + old rolling stock and steam locos! £29 might sound expensive to you for a casual trip but when you consider that an average steam loco can get through £5000 in coal a dayfor example its not hard to see how the costs of running the show quickly mount up!

[Grovenor]

The link in the first post does indicate that the Councils concerned have already had the consultants in, got a positive report and sent it in to the Ministry for funding consideration. So all that is awaited is the next round of prevarication.