How long after the Grouping for Engines to be Repainted?

[Guest WM183]

Hi folks!

Just out of curiosity, how long after the grouping would it have taken for LMS (or LNER, etc) to repaint engines to their own colours? I imagine engines and premier passenger stock would have been priority for repaints. 2 years, or 5, or? Also, would LMS have kept most engines in their former stomping grounds, or would you see L&Y and LNWR 2-4-2s in suburban service alongside Midland 0-4-4ts? And would those passenger tank engines have been painted to LMS red? 

Thanks much!

Amanda

[LMS2968]

The LMS was a bit peculiar in that the chosen colour for all passenger engines was Crimson Lake as it was the former Midland Railway, and thereby detested by the ex-LNWR at Crewe. Some LNWR passenger engines were turned out in the new livery, but Crewe was going through a period of modernisation and so could not - or so they said - repaint their engines in the new scheme and most continued in LNWR colours. The LNWR number plates were often removed and the new number stencilled very small on the cab sides, but the Midland practice of putting the number on the tender was a problem: the LNWR swapped tenders frequently so the only true identification was the smokebox plate, which Crewe rarely fitted. Things improved from about 1928. After this, only true express engines were painted red so the the lesser fry could continue in a more suitable black, though possibly with a single red line rather that the more complex version as later adopted for mixed traffic classes in BR days. And the numbers moved from the tender to the cab sides.

 

There would be no desperate hurry to repaint engines into new colours - it was expensive and unnecessary. And even into BR days, pre-Grouping locos would be found mostly but not entirely on their parent system.

[Wickham Green too]

Locomotives ( etc.) would have been painted at the same periods as before though any difference across the various Works might have become standardised after a while : express locomotives and top rank passenger stock would have been repainted more frequently than lowly shunters and coal wagons. New insignia often appeared on old liveries without a full repaint. Yes most locos were retained on their old stomping grounds as a) they knew how to look after them there and b) there were no in-built prejudices.

Edited October 17, 2022 by Wickham Green too
spiiling orrer

[Aire Head]

This is a NSR loco still in old livery in 1928 at Nottingham on the exMR lines having acted as pilot for an exLNWR loco which isn't pictured.

[Guest WM183]

Thanks guys. That all makes good sense!

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, WM183 said:

Also, would LMS have kept most engines in their former stomping grounds, or would you see L&Y and LNWR 2-4-2s in suburban service alongside Midland 0-4-4ts? 

 

There was some redistribution, initially of the express passenger types, with Hughes 4-6-0s being put to work on the Crewe-Carlisle section of the WCML (something which started with the LNW/L&Y amalgamation on 1 Jan 1922, plus these engines were still being built in the first couple of years of the LMS), The Hughes 4-6-0s displaced ex-LNW Claughtons, which were increasingly found wanting, and a number were transferred to the ex-Midland lines.

 

Later on, in the 1930s, there was more redistribution, with ex-Midland 0-4-4Ts working local services in the Western Division (ex-LNW lines) - notably around Bedford - Bletchley, where they worked motor trains. A good number of ex-Midland 4-4-0s were transferred to ex-LNW sheds in North Wales; other ex-Midland types replaced withdrawn elderly ex-LNW 2-4-0s and 0-6-0s - although sometimes the ex-Midland engines were older than the ex-LNW engines they replaced. (The point was, they had more standard components, especially boilers.)

Edited October 17, 2022 by Compound2632

[LMS2968]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

There was some redistribution, initially of the express passenger types, with Hughes 4-6-0s being put to work on the Crewe-Carlisle section of the WCML (something which started with the LNW/L&Y amalgamation on 1 Jan 1922, plus these engines were still being built in the first couple of years of the LMS), The Hughes 4-6-0s displaced ex-LNW Claughtons, which were increasingly found wanting, and a number were transferred to the ex-Midland lines.

The Dreadnought v Claughton debacle was an example of why engines mostly stayed on their home system. The LNWR and LYR merged from 1 January 1922, retaining the name of the LNWR. George Hughes, ex-L&YR, became the new CME and conducted tests of the two classes, one against the other, began in 1921,the merger being preceded by much integration of the two systems. Dynamometer car tests of both classes over both Railways were conducted, although the results were not made public. One test was certainly visible - and audible - however: a Manchester to Blackpool train was specially made up to nineteen coaches and about 600 tons hauled by Claughton No. 192, and later by Dreadnought No.1656. The main line route included about two miles of the 1 in 84 Pendleton Bank but the test trains were routed by the alternative and steeper line, which culminated in a short stretch of 1 in 50 near the top. It was approached by an S curve with a speed restriction to, I believe, 20 mph at the bottom. The Claughton staggered over the top at less than walking pace, while the Dreadnought was still making about 10 mph at that point. It was a great triumph for the Horwich machine.

 

It was on this basis that the Dreadnoughts were drafted to the LNWR main line, but on the L&Y runs were relatively short, medium speed and with frequent stops and restarts against Pennine gradients, so they were designed to deal with these conditions and the tests merely confirmed what they were good at. Now they were on a line with long distance, non-stop runs at high speed, which is what the Claughtons had been designed for. The Dreadnoughts were the ones now in the wrong place - and it showed.

[Forward!]

Maybe also worth pointing out that some classes being introduced at the time of grouping were often turned out in their pre-grouping liveries, sometimes with the insignia of their new owners applied. A good example is the GCR9N/LNER A5. Several were turned out in GCR green with "L&NER" lettering. Indeed, the upcoming Sonic Models model offers an option in just that scheme.

[Compound2632]

8 minutes ago, Forward! said:

Maybe also worth pointing out that some classes being introduced at the time of grouping were often turned out in their pre-grouping liveries, sometimes with the insignia of their new owners applied. A good example is the GCR9N/LNER A5. Several were turned out in GCR green with "L&NER" lettering. Indeed, the upcoming Sonic Models model offers an option in just that scheme.

 

And not all companies were incorporated into their group on 1 January 1923 - the Caledonian joined the LMS on 1 July 1923; any engine that went through the St Rollox paint shop in the first half of 1923 would have emerged in CR livery - and no doubt for at least a month or two afterwards. Also, the liveries of the new groups were not decided on 1 January 1923 - most of the groups had more pressing business to sort out!

 

I believe that Great Western locomotives continued to be turned out in pre-grouping livery for rather longer...

[Wickham Green too]

.... and a lot of non Great Western locomotives carried it too - though with different insignia.

[Compound2632]

21 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

.... and a lot of non Great Western locomotives carried it too - though with different insignia.

 

But, I think, not as many as carried LNWR livery.

[Steamport Southport]

19 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

.... and a lot of non Great Western locomotives carried it too - though with different insignia.

 

Not quite. The 1923 era GWR and late GWR/BR shades of green were different. Maybe that's why people accuse the manufacturers of getting it wrong?

 

Phoenix does four different shades of GWR green.

 

https://www.phoenix-paints.co.uk/products/gwrbigfour

 

They also changed the livery numerous times between 1906 and 1934.

 

http://www.gwr.org.uk/liveriesloco1906.html

 

 

Jason

[Compound2632]

7 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

Not quite. The 1923 era GWR and late GWR/BR shades of green were different.

 

There's a school of thought that says that the green paint didn't change, or at least there was no intentional change, but what did change was the number of coats of varnish, and that this was the cause in the change of hue. So whether you consider that that constitutes a change of livery or not seems rather debatable. Similarly, BR carriage maroon was intended to be the same colour as Midland / LMS crimson lake, but lacking the earlier degree of preparation varnish, and lining out, is generally considered to have looked a duller colour.

Edited October 17, 2022 by Compound2632

[Wickham Green too]

The fact remains, the majority of locos carried plain black as a direct follow-on from Locomotion No.1. ............................ er - probably ?

[Compound2632]

8 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

The fact remains, the majority of locos carried plain black as a direct follow-on from Locomotion No.1. ............................ er - probably ?

 

Not as a direct follow-on, surely? No continuity. The LMS adopted unlined black for goods locomotives, following the Midland's adoption of the same c. 1910. Otherwise of those lines that had a black livery, most had all engines lined out to some degree, with the exception of the LNWR which left many engines unlined during the Great War, and did not line out non-vacuum braked goods engines until c. 1900 - but even there, there's no continuity, all LNWR engines having been green until 1873.

 

I agree though that the majority were plain black in BR days - but whether that represents a majority of British locomotives seems to me doubtful; many thousands came and went before plain black became widespread.

[uax6]

On the Highland section of the LMS, there were at least one engine in each of the larger HR classes (and sometimes more) that continued to wear HR green either until they were scrapped or until the 1928 painting scheme came about, often going from green to black, missing out the red stage. Although having said that, Inverness did like the LMS red scheme, and turned out locos who shouldn't have got it in red, even after 1928....

 

Andy G

[Guest WM183]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Not as a direct follow-on, surely? No continuity. The LMS adopted unlined black for goods locomotives, following the Midland's adoption of the same c. 1910. Otherwise of those lines that had a black livery, most had all engines lined out to some degree, with the exception of the LNWR which left many engines unlined during the Great War, and did not line out non-vacuum braked goods engines until c. 1900 - but even there, there's no continuity, all LNWR engines having been green until 1873.

 

I agree though that the majority were plain black in BR days - but whether that represents a majority of British locomotives seems to me doubtful; many thousands came and went before plain black became widespread.

Midland did not paint all of its engines red??

[Wickham Green too]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

... Not as a direct follow-on, surely? ...

Where IS that tongue in cheek emoji !

 

7 minutes ago, WM183 said:

Midland did not paint all of its engines red??

I suspect it painted them all green at one time !

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, WM183 said:

Midland did not paint all of its engines red??

 

Not all of them all of the time!

 

1 hour ago, Wickham Green too said:

I suspect it painted them all green at one time !

 

Exactly so.

 

[pH]

11 hours ago, WM183 said:

… would you see L&Y and LNWR 2-4-2s in suburban service alongside Midland 0-4-4ts? 

Never mind L&Y and LNWR engines, at various times you could have seen ex-Caledonian Railway 0-4-4Ts working beside ex-Midland engines at Bradford, Nottingham and St. Albans (quite possibly to and from St. Pancras).  

[Guest WM183]

Ok. Good to know! I am deciding on pre-grouping Midland and neighbors or early LMS. Loads of smaller engines, pre-grouping wagons and carriages, lots of paint schemes... 

[t-b-g]

One interesting result of the delay at Crewe in adopting the new liveries is that it is possible to have the Bachmann LNWR 0-8-0, which didn't receive a Belpaire firebox until LMS days, in LNWR livery complete with a proper LNW numberplate.

 

A few were turned out like that in early LMS days.

Edited October 17, 2022 by t-b-g
Spelling error

[pete_mcfarlane]

For LNWR locos, surely the answer is 1951? That was the year the Dundalk, Newry, and Greenore railway closed, with its stock still in LNWR livery 3 years after nationalisation (never mind the grouping). 

 

I've also seen a photo of LBSC E3 class 453 still in Brighton Livery in 1929 (I'm tempted to do the EB Models kit in my to do pile as this example). It's next to a newly built Z class, which dates the photo correctly. I think the SECR's Terrier managed to make it into the early 30s still in the wartime grey, although it had spent a lot of time in store.  

[CKPR]

L&Y 2-4-2Ts and MR 0-6-0s  were 

drafted into the Furness and West Cumberland area by the LMS from the late 1920s as the 'native' FR and M&CR engines were scrapped.

Edited October 20, 2022 by CKPR

[LMS2968]

11 hours ago, pH said:

Never mind L&Y and LNWR engines, at various times you could have seen ex-Caledonian Railway 0-4-4Ts working beside ex-Midland engines at Bradford, Nottingham and St. Albans (quite possibly to and from St. Pancras).  

These placements often didn't last long as the local crews often failed - or even tried - to get the best out of the interlopers. The L&YR 2-4-2 tanks were soon removed from the St Pancras services as not capable of the work, and returned to their northern haunts where they had previously been used on ten coach expresses over the Pennines.

 

Conservative lot, enginemen. This could explain the reluctance to intermingle engines from different companies, but different systems and methods could cause confusion, as between vacuum and air train brakes, steam and vacuum loco brakes, pole and screw reversers, etc. Why learn a new method when the old one worked quite well?