Why is there such a lack of AC EMUs represented in model form?

[Pete the Elaner]

5 minutes ago, 33C said:

If the future of the hobby is about the young becoming interested, then the majority of them have seen or travelled on a multiple unit. Ergo, manufacturers should attack this problem if they want to survive in the long term. Hornby already have "Flash", a multiple unit trainset, so recognise the target market. In 10 years time, are they going to want a steamer or an EMU and overhead line? We buy and run what we grew up with. So will they? 

That is a very good point.

I grew up watching 309s, 308, 312s & 313s in blue/grey then Jaffa (309s only) then NSE from my bedroom window. NSE is the period which interests me more.

It is club night tonight & we were contacted at the weekend by somebody who wanted to bring his 10yo son along. I am more interested in what the 10yo is interested in.

[Pete the Elaner]

1 minute ago, cctransuk said:

 

Really? How do you arrive at that statement.

 

I'd guess that a very high proportion have never seen a real electric train, let alone travelled on one!

 

Take a look at a map of electrified lines in Britain, and then ask yourself what proportion of the population are likely to come into contact with them.

 

If you live on or near an electric corridor, it is too easy to gain the impression that your everyday experience is commonplace. It's not - as anyone living in the Southwest, Wales, etc., etc. will testify.

 

CJI.

 

Have you considered population density as well as area?

The SE is densely populated & most of the main routes as well as many branches are electrified.

Birmingham, Glasgow, Manchester & Liverpool are served by a lot of EMUs. Even Edinburgh now has a lot of EMU service.

It is not just corridors like the WCML & ECML which are served by EMUs.

A typical DMU is 2 coaches, sometimes doubled to 4. A typical EMU is 4 coaches, sometimes doubled to 8 & in busy periods, often tripled to 12. They don't run empty either.

[cctransuk]

3 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

Have you considered population density as well as area?

The SE is densely populated & most of the main routes as well as many branches are electrified.

Birmingham, Glasgow, Manchester & Liverpool are served by a lot of EMUs. Even Edinburgh now has a lot of EMU service.

It is not just corridors like the WCML & ECML which are served by EMUs.

A typical DMU is 2 coaches, sometimes doubled to 4. A typical EMU is 4 coaches, sometimes doubled to 8 & in busy periods, often tripled to 12. They don't run empty either.

 

True; we lived for forty years in Cambridge - as still does our daughter and family - so I am aware of the density of service and passenger loading.

 

Nevertheless, the twin constraints of catenary and typical train lengths, combined with the shrinking size of homes, seem to me to be an insurmountable disincentive to the large-scale production of EMU models; at least in 4mm. scale.

 

CJI.

[wombatofludham]

Accurascale are launching a range of Irish modern DMUs which run all over the country in 3-6 car rakes.  

Now, Irish railway modellers are probably fewer in number than even those of us who like our trains with coathangers on the roof.  Add in the fact the 22000 class units replaced just about every loco hauled train in Ireland, robbing the country of a fantastic, varied and appealing (to enthusiasts) operation, and you could be forgiven for describing the decision to offer a full range of the units as "brave".  Yet they are, and have stated they are tailoring numbers in the production run accordingly.  They are offering not just the "easy" 3 car sets but also 5 and 6 car sets.

Seeing this model being announced, at a price point that is competitive and with finance deals available to spread the cost, for a small market, much smaller than the potential market for UK OHLE units despite them being the standard modern Irish inter city unit, really makes me think that this perceived wisdom of AC electric units being sales death can now be laid to rest.  If I had wanted to bet on a niche model being brought to market, I would not have bet on the 22000 DMU.

[Clive Mortimore]

Oh dear, when will modellers stop calling Overhead Line Equipment (OLE) catenary. The catenary wire is the one that dips from one registration point (mast or portal) to the next, with the dropper wires holding the contact wire at the correct height.

 

OLE and AC EMUs are in a bit of a reverse chicken and egg situation, one needs to be there for the other to appear.

[33C]

42 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

Really? How do you arrive at that statement.

 

I'd guess that a very high proportion have never seen a real electric train, let alone travelled on one!

 

Take a look at a map of electrified lines in Britain, and then ask yourself what proportion of the population are likely to come into contact with them.

 

If you live on or near an electric corridor, it is too easy to gain the impression that your everyday experience is commonplace. It's not - as anyone living in the Southwest, Wales, etc., etc. will testify.

 

CJI.

It will come........diesel is no longer flavour of the month. And I said 10 years down the line. Plus, multiple units.  Not steam, unless they have steam on their local lines! 😄

[97406]

On 30/10/2022 at 09:58, 33C said:

Knock one up from some old Triang, suburban coaches, a Lima or Hornby diesel chassis, balsa cab roof and undergear, and a bent wire pan. A coat of paint hides the sins! Change the bogies for Hornby Gresley type if you so wish. Don't just sit there waiting, 1,  2,  3,.....railway modelling! (Not buying...)

 

Replica Suburbans and DC Kits ends

Edited November 16, 2022 by 97406

[andyman7]

On 30/10/2022 at 08:22, Benjamin Brady said:

I am with others in wishing to see more EMU in OO. I suppose Hornby were not wrong when they said electrics don't sell. The Bachmann 350 ended up in the bargain bin and was being sold off at £80. Looking at how much the class 150 is selling at now the 350 would be around £400. 

 

Maybe so for the LM units, but they sell s/h for £200+ now; whilst the SWT version never got below £225 for one version from one retailer, sold out completely and is now also sought-after.

42 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Oh dear, when will modellers stop calling Overhead Line Equipment (OLE) catenary. The catenary wire is the one that dips from one registration point (mast or portal) to the next, with the dropper wires holding the contact wire at the correct height.

 

Everyone knows that the proper term is Knitting 🙂

[97406]

1 hour ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Oh dear, when will modellers stop calling Overhead Line Equipment (OLE) catenary. The catenary wire is the one that dips from one registration point (mast or portal) to the next, with the dropper wires holding the contact wire at the correct height.

 

OLE and AC EMUs are in a bit of a reverse chicken and egg situation, one needs to be there for the other to appear.

Some O(H)LE doesn’t have the catenary wire, like the line to Trafford Park. Or at least it didn’t when I was last there which was a few years ago.

Edited November 16, 2022 by 97406

[Clive Mortimore]

37 minutes ago, 97406 said:

Some O(H)LE doesn’t have the catenary wire, like the line to Trafford Park. Or at least it didn’t when I was last there which was a few years ago.

The only OLE I could find without catenary wire when I searched Trafford Park was the Metrolink tram.

[lofty.ian]

One way to avoid the overhead problem is to install the portals and supports, including registration arms etc but leave off the catenary and contact wiring.

when you look at prototype photos equivalent to normal model viewing distance, the wires are hard to see.

In 2mm it looks fine, in 7mm it needs modelling. In 4mm I think it is marginal.

My 4mm EM layout has no wiring but does have all the portals and I am happy with the effect.

It makes track cleaning easier and reduces damage to structures, and hands.

My steam locos don’t emit steam and my diesels don’t belch out black fumes.

[97406]

11 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

The only OLE I could find without catenary wire when I searched Trafford Park was the Metrolink tram.

Found a pic (not sure if it’s Trafford Park or elsewhere) in this document https://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/news/west-midlands-and-chilterns-areas-keep-vital-freight-moving-during-coronavirus-crisis

[Clive Mortimore]

13 minutes ago, 97406 said:

Found a pic (not sure if it’s Trafford Park or elsewhere) in this document https://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/news/west-midlands-and-chilterns-areas-keep-vital-freight-moving-during-coronavirus-crisis

The photo shows tramway OLE as used in sidings, depots and some terminal stations were speeds and therefore forces on the OLE are light meaning a lighter OLE can be used, not always with the support of a catenary wire.

[97406]

10 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

The photo shows tramway OLE as used in sidings, depots and some terminal stations were speeds and therefore forces on the OLE are light meaning a lighter OLE can be used, not always with the support of a catenary wire.

Good find!

[Legend]

2 hours ago, wombatofludham said:

Accurascale are launching a range of Irish modern DMUs which run all over the country in 3-6 car rakes.  

Now, Irish railway modellers are probably fewer in number than even those of us who like our trains with coathangers on the roof.  Add in the fact the 22000 class units replaced just about every loco hauled train in Ireland, robbing the country of a fantastic, varied and appealing (to enthusiasts) operation, and you could be forgiven for describing the decision to offer a full range of the units as "brave".  Yet they are, and have stated they are tailoring numbers in the production run accordingly.  They are offering not just the "easy" 3 car sets but also 5 and 6 car sets.

Seeing this model being announced, at a price point that is competitive and with finance deals available to spread the cost, for a small market, much smaller than the potential market for UK OHLE units despite them being the standard modern Irish inter city unit, really makes me think that this perceived wisdom of AC electric units being sales death can now be laid to rest.  If I had wanted to bet on a niche model being brought to market, I would not have bet on the 22000 DMU.

 

I think Accurascale and maybe to a limited extent Revolution are the best bets for an emu. Bachmann would no doubt to a great job but reality is they are just too expensive. The return they (or Kader) would need would probably rule it out. I don't think its insignificant that Bachmanns latest mu's ,158, 108 re-introduction, are all 2car. People balked at the cost of their 4-BEP

 

Accurascales mantra is delivering good value to the enthusiast, accepting that they have to make a good return themselves. Their route to market and relatively small overheads probably mean they are best placed to bring an mu to market at reasonable cost - a 313/314/315/507/508 maybe?

 

I think KR could be an outside bet for a 303 Glasgow Blue Train, maybe not as way out as their existing range, but more niche than normal mu's and I think would sell. Caledonian Blue, BR Blue, Blue/Grey, Strathclyde Orange, GMPT Orange/Brown, Crimson and cream. Enough liveries that they wouldn't have to invent ficticious ones!

[Clive Mortimore]

59 minutes ago, Legend said:

 

I think KR could be an outside bet for a 303 Glasgow Blue Train, maybe not as way out as their existing range, but more niche than normal mu's and I think would sell. Caledonian Blue, BR Blue, Blue/Grey, Strathclyde Orange, GMPT Orange/Brown, Crimson and cream. Enough liveries that they wouldn't have to invent ficticious ones!

Spoil sport, I an sure a AM3 in lined green would have been lovely. 😉

[Pete the Elaner]

18 hours ago, Legend said:

 

I think KR could be an outside bet for a 303 Glasgow Blue Train, maybe not as way out as their existing range, but more niche than normal mu's and I think would sell. Caledonian Blue, BR Blue, Blue/Grey, Strathclyde Orange, GMPT Orange/Brown, Crimson and cream. Enough liveries that they wouldn't have to invent ficticious ones!

 

I think a 303 would be very unlikely. They were largely limited to Glasgow & not of a common type like 302/304/305/307/308/504, 313-315/507-508 or 317-322 so there is less potential for changing the tooling by swapping a few parts over like cabs. The same is true of the 309s: unusual but no similarities to others (although heavily based on a Mk 1 so maybe a possibility for a manufacturer with a Mk1 in their range).

[Legend]

11 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

I think a 303 would be very unlikely. They were largely limited to Glasgow & not of a common type like 302/304/305/307/308/504, 313-315/507-508 or 317-322 so there is less potential for changing the tooling by swapping a few parts over like cabs. The same is true of the 309s: unusual but no similarities to others (although heavily based on a Mk 1 so maybe a possibility for a manufacturer with a Mk1 in their range).

Yes, I accept what you are saying, which is why I said maybe KR Models. They were attractive units and trend setting when introduced. Something out of the ordinary, seems KRs modus operandi. More so than slam door 302 etc . So they would be attractive models and certainly more widespread than Leader, Fell, Clayton DHPC  etc etc 

Edited November 17, 2022 by Legend

[Pete the Elaner]

50 minutes ago, Legend said:

Yes, I accept what you are saying, which is why I said maybe KR Models. They were attractive units and trend setting when introduced. Something out of the ordinary, seems KRs modus operandi. More so than slam door 302 etc . So they would be attractive models and certainly more widespread than Leader, Fell, Clayton DHPC  etc etc 

 

& that brings us back to the same arguments:

Fell, Leader, the LMS twins, Duke of Gloucester, LMS Turbomotive, GT3 etc were 1-offs (ok 2-offs) & their individuality had given them a sort of following. They were all scrapped well before I was born but I still recognise each & have a certain amount of knowledge about them. Their experimental nature also gives many modellers an excuse to run them.

The 303 was a class of commuter unit which spent most of its life in Glasgow & ran under wires. A big hurdle is that it requires 3x the amount of design & tooling of a loco.

I don't know why you think it is such a guaranteed seller. I don't. I would love a 309 but I really don't think it would be a good choice because it was slightly unusual & only ran on the GE then from Manchester.

[Legend]

3 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

& that brings us back to the same arguments:

Fell, Leader, the LMS twins, Duke of Gloucester, LMS Turbomotive, GT3 etc were 1-offs (ok 2-offs) & their individuality had given them a sort of following. They were all scrapped well before I was born but I still recognise each & have a certain amount of knowledge about them. Their experimental nature also gives many modellers an excuse to run them.

The 303 was a class of commuter unit which spent most of its life in Glasgow & ran under wires. A big hurdle is that it requires 3x the amount of design & tooling of a loco.

I don't know why you think it is such a guaranteed seller. I don't. I would love a 309 but I really don't think it would be a good choice because it was slightly unusual & only ran on the GE then from Manchester.

 Actually 2x as the driving cars were the same , sandwiching the motor brake.  It’s just it’s an attractive unit , it actually appeared in Cuneo BR posters  and would look stunning in Caley Blue . So I’m thinking the attractiveness would make folk want one rather than saying it was just a Glasgow Unit .  It was also in Manchester but is really quite an iconic unit .  A lot of people seem to be buying odd unusual prototypes . This is actually more mainstream . But maybe I’m out of touch. When something like a 4DD appears before a 4 Sub 

Edited November 17, 2022 by Legend

[wombatofludham]

2 minutes ago, Legend said:

  But maybe I’m out of touch. When something like a 4DD appears before a 4 Sub 

I don't think you are.  People seem to assume that only mass, fast selling items will guarantee to get made, and the days of multi-car units are over.  Yet we have manufacturers coming to market with small runs of very niche models, mainstream manufacturers releasing three or more vehicle units at prices of more than £300-700 all of which suggests that manufacturers are willing to have slower selling long term models alongside their quick buck, faster selling locos like the 37 and 47.

I think it's just inertia, and the fact we've only fairly recently had a good range of AC electric locos of contemporary quality which would be needed to make sales of any AC electric unit likely to happen.

Personally, I feel a Class 310, with suitable tooling slides to allow the differences to be modelled for a Class 312, could be a good choice, long lived, spanning the early AL5 and AL6 variants through to the Class 90 era, well over a dozen liveries between them, and a good looking unit found on a variety of duties serving the main population centres and, in the case of the 312, King's Cross suburban and Great Eastern areas too.  Although I bought a Britannia Pacific Class 312 and have ordered his planned Class 310, I know I'd be up for multiple purchases of an RTR 310 even though you'd be looking at circa £500 for one now - although that's a fraction of the north of £700 Bachmann have pitched their newly launched Grey Pullman train pack at, which clearly they think will sell even at that price.

[Pete the Elaner]

2 hours ago, wombatofludham said:

 a variety of duties serving the main population centres and, in the case of the 312, King's Cross suburban and Great Eastern areas too.

310s also worked on the LTS for a while & even on the GE, at least on the Clacton local services.

Here is a (dodgy) photo of one arriving at platform 5 in Colchester.

 

[wombatofludham]

I had some hooky cab rides in 310s, no names no packdrill.  I was also sat in one recently outshopped in Reggie Rail livery with Class 158 style moquette when the window next to where I was sitting was shattered by an air pellet just after Sutton Coldfield.  I always thought Sutton was a more genteel part of the Midlands...

[08221]

Like you @wombatofludham, I had a few cab rides in 310s courtesy of friendly drivers. 

 

“Just keep your head down” I was asked as we went through Watford Junction on the up fast non stop one morning  - just in case there was an inspector about!

 

Simpler days and happy times 🙂