Why is there such a lack of AC EMUs represented in model form?

[Class365]

I'm fairly new to the hobby, and one of the main things I noticed when searching for rolling stock is the lack of any AC EMUs. I find this weird considering there are many AC locomotives available, such as the class 86, 87, 90, 91, etc. From what I have seen at various exhibitions I have visited, modelling the west and east coast mainlines in periods after electrification seems to be pretty popular, and there are more and more layouts set in the present day, yet there are no EMUs to operate alongside the various locomotives. I guess you could argue that EMUs don't have as much prestige or interest as locomotives, but there are already a lot of "boring" trains produced, like the many first generation DMUs which seem pretty popular.

 

So I don't understand why there is such a gap in the market as far as AC EMUs are concerned. Is it because companies are too afraid to make the "leap" in case the product fails, or is there another reason?

[montyburns56]

1. Expensive to produce as they are usually 3 or 4 car trains

2. Most were generally built for a specific line or area so theoretically they will only be bought by those who model that area.

3. Not that many people (as a portion of modellers)  model AC electric lines.

[bmthtrains - David]

EMU classes 800, 390, 350, 319, 321 - are all available in N gauge. 313 due next year.

 

David  

Edited October 28, 2022 by bmthtrains - David

[darrel]

32 minutes ago, montyburns56 said:

1. Expensive to produce as they are usually 3 or 4 car trains

2. Most were generally built for a specific line or area so theoretically they will only be bought by those who model that area.

3. Not that many people (as a portion of modellers)  model AC electric lines.

1 no more expensive than a 3 car DMU

2. A class 313, 314,315,507 and 508

Class 317,318,455

Class 320,321,322 

These families of unit operated over many areas of the country, over many years and in many liveries.

3 chicken and egg. If you want to make a model based in Scotland do you model OHLE when there are no models of EMUs to run under them? 

 

I would also say a class 303 would go down well operated around Glasgow and Manchester one even was based at Clacton. They would sell better than a North Eastern electric loco that only operated on one line. 

The only rtr emu in 00 gauge was the class 350 and bachman didn't even do it in transpennine livery. 

 

[33C]

Check out my thread "Cheapo EMU's, class 302ish, and anymore...?" May give you some ideas as I have asked this question myself, considering most people today are more familiar with this type of train.

[Wheatley]

Go back a bit and the only choice of AC electric locomotives were Hornby's 86 or Lima's 87. Hornby went on record on more than one occasion to say "electrics don't sell" and presumably had the sales figures from the 86 to back that up.  AC modellers are still playing catch up. 

 

At around the same time the only DMU available was Lima's 117. Hornby poked a toe in the water with the 110 then Lima had another stab with the 101 and 121 (using the 117 tooling). It was Bachmann who really went for DMUs some time later, but they all came to market when the price point for a two car DMU was not much more than a large loco. Now they're hundreds of pounds each because people rightly expect that each vehicle will be different, have a decoder, lighting etc so you're effectively tooling 3 or 4 vehicles equivalent to a locomotive but with the motor left out (Lima's 117 had two DMBSs rather than tooling up a separate DMS). That alters the business case for producing them. 

 

 

Edited October 30, 2022 by Wheatley

[cctransuk]

On 28/10/2022 at 14:22, Class365 said:

So I don't understand why there is such a gap in the market as far as AC EMUs are concerned.

 

Catenary!

 

Not much available RTR; difficult to scratchbuild; and a right pain-in-the-@rse when it comes to track cleaning! (Well, you did ask)!

 

As to AC locos - I'll bet that they don't fly off the shelves in the way that diesel locos do; for the same reason as the dearth of EMUs.

 

CJI.

[33C]

My old layout used bent, bicycle spokes and thin, piano wire. A small hole was drilled at periodic intervals, the screw end of the spoke wound in and the contact wire was looped round the stub end of each one in turn, imagine an upside down J. Simple and springy. Would take knocks very well when track cleaning! (The pans rode just under.) My next layout will need catenary and I will use this again as I have a cramped space to work in. My imagination may well fill the gaps but I may try a more squared off shape and use flat beads from the Haberdashers, (great word, great shop!) for insulators this time and add some structure numbers and 25kv signs with some balsa transformers. Save those old bike wheels!

 

[Legend]

Completely agree about lack of AC emus . Somewhat bewildered when things like North Eastern electrics , Clayton prototype and even Leader and  Fell locos are modelled that we have no AC emus . We are actually going to have a 4DD Unit ahead of a 4 Sub ( I know these are Three rail DC)    
unbelievable ! 

 

 issue maybe cost . The advent of DCC and the need to have through couplings to allow one decoder has probably driven the cost up  . As an analogue user I’d be happy with basic couplings but it’s not the way the market is going alas . 

Edited October 29, 2022 by Legend

[bmthtrains - David]

On 28/10/2022 at 19:36, bmthtrains - David said:

EMU classes 800, 390, 350, 319, 321 - are all available in N gauge. 313 due next year.

 

David  

I will just repeat my earlier post as everyone seems to be agreeing there are no AC EMUs in model form when what I presume they mean is there aren’t any in OO gauge. That is very different to what the OP asked, however.

 

There are 5 classes available with another one due next year, just not in the scale some people assume is the only one anyone ever means…

 

David 

 

 

[Izzy]

I believe it’s down to size basically. What I mean is that for many modellers 4-coach trains are a luxury, they just don’t have the space. Most DMU’s are from one carriage upwards etc while the only common EMU’s I’m aware of were the 2-car third rail units on the southern. This is why I think those available are mostly in N gauge. More room for many to have them. I’ve built a couple of 309’s in 2mm, one 4-car, one 2/3-car. I could not have contemplated having them in 4mm let alone 7mm. It’s not that some wouldn’t have the space, or the inclination to build overhead in these larger scales, just probably not enough to make the demand necessary for a production run. That’s my take on it anyaway.

 

Bob

[MyRule1]

The title of this thread is slightly misleading in the the abbreviation RTR should appear.

 

From the early days of Modern Traction Kits, through DC kits to today's 3d printed kits a wid range of ac emu's have been, and are available,

 

current examples at:

https://www.bratchellmodels.com/

https://www.dckits-devideos.co.uk/index.php?route=product/category&path=131_224_136

 

Unfortunately the DC kits seem to be unavailable now.

[Benjamin Brady]

I am with others in wishing to see more EMU in OO. I suppose Hornby were not wrong when they said electrics don't sell. The Bachmann 350 ended up in the bargain bin and was being sold off at £80. Looking at how much the class 150 is selling at now the 350 would be around £400. 

I think N gauge is excellent now for emu, I am seriously tempted to start getting some n now, especially as the quality is excellent and you can get the units. 

With the 85 and 90s and the 86s from Heljan I think the first gen emus would be the obvious choice. A 304/305/308 etc. The 308 would have a good scope. GEML/West Yorkshire and they even ended up on the cross city in WYPTE red. 305 ended up in GMPTE. These could be modelled in 3 car later conditions which might well keep the price down. 

I think though the concern now is the price point a emu would come at. 

After all there are not many DMUs left to do now 😂 

[MyRule1]

As to the price point referred to by @Benjamin Brady

Looking at Hornby's current prices for 800 types and the Flirt we would be looking at £100 per coach, which when a diesel engine is nudging £200 and coaches £60 each is not too bad.

 

On the other had we have the Locomotion/Rails / Heljan at £20+ !

[Hibelroad]

I grew up travelling on class 304s, ( Macclesfield, very early 25v electrification). I used to wonder why the local railways looked so different to the models in the shops, sadly they still do. I've waited all my life for a RTR 304, I am still waiting. 

[33C]

12 minutes ago, Hibelroad said:

I grew up travelling on class 304s, ( Macclesfield, very early 25v electrification). I used to wonder why the local railways looked so different to the models in the shops, sadly they still do. I've waited all my life for a RTR 304, I am still waiting. 

Knock one up from some old Triang, suburban coaches, a Lima or Hornby diesel chassis, balsa cab roof and undergear, and a bent wire pan. A coat of paint hides the sins! Change the bogies for Hornby Gresley type if you so wish. Don't just sit there waiting, 1,  2,  3,.....railway modelling! (Not buying...)

[cctransuk]

12 hours ago, 33C said:

My old layout used bent, bicycle spokes and thin, piano wire. A small hole was drilled at periodic intervals, the screw end of the spoke wound in and the contact wire was looped round the stub end of each one in turn, imagine an upside down J. Simple and springy. Would take knocks very well when track cleaning! (The pans rode just under.) My next layout will need catenary and I will use this again as I have a cramped space to work in. My imagination may well fill the gaps but I may try a more squared off shape and use flat beads from the Haberdashers, (great word, great shop!) for insulators this time and add some structure numbers and 25kv signs with some balsa transformers. Save those old bike wheels!

 

 

If bicycle spokes can pass for catenery posts, surely Mk.1s with driver's windows cut in the ends will pass for EMUs?

 

CJI.

[33C]

1 hour ago, cctransuk said:

 

If bicycle spokes can pass for catenery posts, surely Mk.1s with driver's windows cut in the ends will pass for EMUs?

 

CJI.

Damn straight!  Or you could die waiting for 00 r.t.r. 🤪  ( I was thinking Triang suburbans...)

[wombatofludham]

Well, Accurascale have just announced a range of Irish DMUs (Class 22000, the current IE intercity stock) which will accurately model the different formations from 3 car to full 6 car (the real units come in a mix of 3, 4 and 6 car).  These units are the standard Irish intercity train on all routes except Cork and Belfast, although they do work these lines too.  Enthusiasts of the Irish scene are less than warm to these Korean built trains because they killed off loco hauled Mk2 and Mk3 stock and all the "baby" General Motors locos.  Their prices on the UK website are £299.99 for 3 car no sound, £400 3 car sound, up to £499, six car, no sound to £599.99 six car with sound.  I really doubt our Irish friends are wealthier than their UK brethren, and if there was a type of train that was a "Marmite" unit with enthusiasts, it's the 22000 class, yet Accurascale have launched the train, and developed easy payment schemes to allow modellers to afford them.

So, what is it that Accurascale see that no-one else seemingly can?

As for Hornby "being right" about electrics not selling (Hornby being right about anything is an errant nonsense) how is it Heljan have released additional liveries in their Class 86 range and have publicly stated that they will be doing a new retooled 86/2?  Are the Danes on some sort of recreational powder and urinating money up their nicely tiled urinals?  Or is it more likely that they are selling in numbers that match their business projections and as such is allowing them to plough on with the longer term investment plan?  Given their past with the earlier 86/2 model, if this retooled batch had been sales lemons, you can bet they'd have pulled the plug on any re-runs.  Bachmann have also trickled out more Class 90s in a range of liveries, so again they must be meeting their target sales figures.

If Hornby are convinced "electrics don't sell" then that will be down to two Hornby specific items - when this comment was made their only models were new when I was at school (I'm 60 in January) and it was made by an individual who, having announced some serious investment in non-steam outline earlier this year, then went and undid the goodwill by claiming steam had more character thereby showing he clearly was a kettleista.  In any case they have invested heavily in electrics, the new 91, the 87 and the APT so that is several hundred thousand of pounds invested in non-selling items.

The alleged bargain binning of the Desiro.  At the time it wasn't matched by time-compatable locomotives or units so was a bit of an outlier, the Class 85 having been withdrawn long before they took to the rails and the model was released before the 90 came to market.  Apart from the Hornby Pendolino, which isn't the best model and is designed more for the trainset market, and various diesel classes it is understandable why it might have been a slow seller.  But.  You try finding a bargain Desiro now.  Rather like the Hornby 4-VEP of Marmite reputation, they fetch daft money now.  

So, look at the business evidence - from an Irish unit being sold as a six car set on finance plans, to manufacturers, including steam obsessed Hornby, still investing in electric traction.  That's reality, not what one individual retailer who has a shop hundreds of miles away from the nearest 25kv claims is market truth about slow sellers over a moany pint down the boozer.

The reason why we haven't had any AC electric units - yet - in OO will be down to the market having been investing in better models of more numerous diesel classes like the 47 and the 37, which have between them had several million pound's worth of investment made in them.  But I have a sneaking suspicion that an electric unit to complement the wide range of AC traction now available is coming.  It's bound to, I have a reservation for a Britannia Pacific AM10 electric unit which will come in at just under £800 next year, so if that doesn't flush a 310-312 out of the investment log jam nothing will.

Edited October 30, 2022 by wombatofludham

[jjb1970]

Manufacturers will make what they expect to deliver a good return on investment, whatever that might be. And they will lean into prototypes within their comfort zone and for which they consider their knowledge and expertise well suited for the purpose of research and product development. That said, the AC EMU scene isn't as barren as it once was. The Hornby 390 is a bit basic but with work can scrub up well, their 395 is excellent and their 800 and 370 are lovely looking models. The Bachmann 350 is also a lovely looking model. Looking at locomotives there are now excellent models of classes 85, 86, 87 & 90, with a great 92 imminent and an 89 in development. Not so long-ago AC modellers dreamt of being this well served, even if things are still less than ideal. 

[letterspider]

Couplings that are electrically conductive...

Each UK manufacturer has tried different designs but they all seem to have drawbacks.

It needs to be cheap (to buy replacements) reliable easy to remove and connect, for example I have to lay my CEP sideways to connect the couplings  otherwise there is a risk of stressing and snapping the cam shaft,  then have to lift 4 coaches upright in one go.

European models - Roco has a nice solution for example magnetic conductive couplers but a two car EMU cost upward €300.

 

[Pete the Elaner]

On 29/10/2022 at 22:01, cctransuk said:

 

Catenary!

 

Not much available RTR; difficult to scratchbuild; and a right pain-in-the-@rse when it comes to track cleaning! (Well, you did ask)!

 

As to AC locos - I'll bet that they don't fly off the shelves in the way that diesel locos do; for the same reason as the dearth of EMUs.

 

CJI.

 

Catenary is a large part of the problem.

"premier" trains such as Voyager, APT, HST, Pendolino, Blue Pullman are exceptions & not really what we are referring to here. We are talking about the commuter trains which run on 70% of services on most shared lines & virtually all on long distance lines.

Trains with pantographs don't sell as well as those based on self-powered prototypes. Manufacturers have told us this. They should know.

Making RTR catenary is an issue though. There are broadly 3 types of potential customer for this:

Those who want it to be robust & work. Hornby made this a few years ago. It looked way overscale & far from authentic. It was not on sale for very long.

Those who want it looking fairly reasonable but also want some interaction with the pantographs.

Those who want it quite fine looking & are happy to run with the pantographs fixed slightly below.

The best option for manufacturers is leave it to the smaller ones. This leaves many layouts with no OLE because it is less widely available.

Locos also sell better than units. The ranges available tell us this.

DMUs are typically shorter, typically 2 car but some are 3. EMUs are typically 4 car, but some 3. This makes them more expensive. It is not like buying a loco then 1 coach at a time to spread the cost over a longer period. The unit would need to be bought in 1 go.

 

I would welcome many AC EMUs. I accept that I am in a minority though.

 

[wombatofludham]

2 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

Manufacturers will make what they expect to deliver a good return on investment, whatever that might be. And they will lean into prototypes within their comfort zone and for which they consider their knowledge and expertise well suited for the purpose of research and product development. That said, the AC EMU scene isn't as barren as it once was. The Hornby 390 is a bit basic but with work can scrub up well, their 395 is excellent and their 800 and 370 are lovely looking models. The Bachmann 350 is also a lovely looking model. Looking at locomotives there are now excellent models of classes 85, 86, 87 & 90, with a great 92 imminent and an 89 in development. Not so long-ago AC modellers dreamt of being this well served, even if things are still less than ideal. 

I will say this though, Bachmann seem to be more willing to take a punt at items the self appointed experts claim will be sales lemons.  They did 3rd rail units (CEP and EPB) which "experts" said were too niche and "boring", they took a punt with the Class 85 despite Heljan having had mixed reviews with their 86/2 and arguably kick started a growing market for AC traction, plus they did do the Blue Pullman despite having said at one time there was no market for it, so it wouldn't surprise me if Bachmann have plans to build on the greater market support for AC traction with a unit.  They are not afraid of releasing multi car units despite the claims that some make about their pricing making them unsellable.

You are right though, just a few years back I would never have imagined I would be able to recreate my favourite period of AC traction, the late 60s, when having just started primary school my classroom overlooked the Trent Valley line and I was treated to a procession of ALs in multiple variations of early liveries hauling mixed maroon and blue-grey coaching stock.

[33C]

3 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

Catenary is a large part of the problem.

"premier" trains such as Voyager, APT, HST, Pendolino, Blue Pullman are exceptions & not really what we are referring to here. We are talking about the commuter trains which run on 70% of services on most shared lines & virtually all on long distance lines.

Trains with pantographs don't sell as well as those based on self-powered prototypes. Manufacturers have told us this. They should know.

Making RTR catenary is an issue though. There are broadly 3 types of potential customer for this:

Those who want it to be robust & work. Hornby made this a few years ago. It looked way overscale & far from authentic. It was not on sale for very long.

Those who want it looking fairly reasonable but also want some interaction with the pantographs.

Those who want it quite fine looking & are happy to run with the pantographs fixed slightly below.

The best option for manufacturers is leave it to the smaller ones. This leaves many layouts with no OLE because it is less widely available.

Locos also sell better than units. The ranges available tell us this.

DMUs are typically shorter, typically 2 car but some are 3. EMUs are typically 4 car, but some 3. This makes them more expensive. It is not like buying a loco then 1 coach at a time to spread the cost over a longer period. The unit would need to be bought in 1 go.

 

I would welcome many AC EMUs. I accept that I am in a minority though.

 

If the future of the hobby is about the young becoming interested, then the majority of them have seen or travelled on a multiple unit. Ergo, manufacturers should attack this problem if they want to survive in the long term. Hornby already have "Flash", a multiple unit trainset, so recognise the target market. In 10 years time, are they going to want a steamer or an EMU and overhead line? We buy and run what we grew up with. So will they? 

[cctransuk]

4 minutes ago, 33C said:

If the future of the hobby is about the young becoming interested, then the majority of them have seen or travelled on a multiple unit.

 

Really? How do you arrive at that statement.

 

I'd guess that a very high proportion have never seen a real electric train, let alone travelled on one!

 

Take a look at a map of electrified lines in Britain, and then ask yourself what proportion of the population are likely to come into contact with them.

 

If you live on or near an electric corridor, it is too easy to gain the impression that your everyday experience is commonplace. It's not - as anyone living in the Southwest, Wales, etc., etc. will testify.

 

CJI.