Bexhill West 1936 - GWR coaches?

[Artless Bodger]

I've been reading Branch Lines of the Southern Railway, volume 1, Reeves and Hawkins. There is an aerial view of Bexhill West goods yard taken by Aerofilms in 1936. The picture appears on the Disused Stations web page (http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/b/bexhill_west/). In the sidings is a rake of 4 carriages, at least 2 maybe all appear to have clerestory rooves, two appear to be in a 2 tone livery. Livery, rooves and van layout with guards duckets suggest GWR to me. So - what would 4 GWR coaches be doing in Bexhill West yard?

 

Other interesting detail in the photo in the book show the extensive coal bins and their relationship to the wagons, 'Anthracite' coal wagons (anthracite being the chosen fuel for oast houses iirc), stacks of what appear to be building materials - earthenware pipes etc. There also appears to be a plank supported on trestles from a coal wagon (GW) into a coal bin - example of an elevated barrow-way? 

 

I've looked on the Britain From The Air site but no station views come up with a search of Bexhill or Bexhill West, there are no pins dropped on the map either.

 

Just thought this was a bit thought provoking / interesting.

 

Regards.

[Wickham Green too]

Whatever those coaches are, they didn't get there from the Tonbridge direction - so must have worked up from Hastings / St.Leonards then down from Crowhurst ! 

[Miss Prism]

Excursion stock?

 

[Siberian Snooper]

Wasn't Bexhill a starting point for one of the multiple portions of the Southeast, Northwest trains, that alternated between GW and Southern stock.

 

 

[Artless Bodger]

3 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

Whatever those coaches are, they didn't get there from the Tonbridge direction - so must have worked up from Hastings / St.Leonards then down from Crowhurst ! 

Ah, yes, agood point that had not occured to me when reading the book. I think when the GWR diesel railcar was delivered to the KESR it had brake blocks stacked down one side to tilt it enough to fit Mountfield tunnel - or is that urban myth? Would have been out of gauge on the other side though.

[Wickham Green too]

3 minutes ago, Artless Bodger said:

... Would have been out of gauge on the other side though.

No problem if the other track was temporarily blocked to traffic.

[bécasse]

I think that they have to be the carriages off the Hastings portion of the Birkenhead, possibly stabled at Bexhill West during the rebuilding of Hastings station which took place about then. As has been said they would have had to be worked in via West St.Leonards and Crowhurst.

 

Most of the coal bins visible would have held stored coal for "industrial" users in the area being tripped by road on an as-required basis. Bin storage of domestic coal didn't really start until WWII made it imperative to smooth production at the pits.

 

[Nearholmer]

I’ve looked at that photo several times, studying the finer points of goal storage, but never noticed the coaches!

 

Were any of the former “Hastings Car Train” coaches still about at that date, possibly co-opted into the Pullman fleet?

[Wickham Green too]

43 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

... Were any of the former “Hastings Car Train” coaches still about at that date, possibly co-opted into the Pullman fleet?

The one survivor - "Constance" - was withdrawn in 1928 and I think they all went about the same time ........ it was a mere 52' long but I think the coaches in the photo are longer than that.

[phil_sutters]

They weren't there at Christmas 1940 according to Eddy Izzard

[bécasse]

11 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

The one survivor - "Constance" - was withdrawn in 1928 and I think they all went about the same time ........ it was a mere 52' long but I think the coaches in the photo are longer than that.

The Southern's SED had Pullman cars in certain steam-hauled services in much the same way as the 6-PUL electric units on the CD. These Pullman cars were all to Hastings-line profile and in the BR era were used as buffet cars (but labelled "REFRESHMENT CAR") exclusively on the Hastings line as the refurbished Maunsell vehicles used elsewhere on the SED were too wide. They lasted until the 6B diesel units replaced them, painted green briefly at the end. These Pullman Cars would certainly have worked to Bexhill West on occasion but the other stabled vehicles don't look at all like the R0 Maunsell or ex-SECR vehicles that would necessarily worked with them.

[Nearholmer]

I tend to the view that they are probably “week stay” or “overnighting” GWR coaches, out-stabled between services, but wanted to float other thoughts to see what the possibilities might be.

[Wickham Green too]

7 minutes ago, bécasse said:

... These Pullman cars were all to Hastings-line profile ...

There were only six Hastings-gauge Pullmans - three of the coaches in the photo are definitely not that type and, as suggested by the OP, appear to be Great Western clerestories, The second from left is too indistinct/grubby to be certain - but why on earth would a Hastings Pullman be coupled with GWR stock ?

[Oldddudders]

16 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

There were only six Hastings-gauge Pullmans - three of the coaches in the photo are definitely not that type and, as suggested by the OP, appear to be Great Western clerestories, The second from left is too indistinct/grubby to be certain - but why on earth would a Hastings Pullman be coupled with GWR stock ?

ECS moves to a satellite berthing point - if that is what it was - may be composed of almost anything. And running round at Crowhurst to access BW would have been tedious.

 

If this is what actually happened, it all serves to remind us just how complicated operating the steam-era railway was. 

[Wickham Green too]

3 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

ECS moves ...may be composed of almost anything. ...

Indeed, but I think it highly unlikely that anyone would choose to split a screw-coupled GWR set - probably not equipped with Pullman adaptors - and insert a Pullman on which you'd have to drop the buckeyes and extent the buffers !!?!

[Artless Bodger]

Thanks for all the views and ideas expresed above. I certainly was not aware there was a Hastings portion to the Birkenhead train, I've only seen Folkestone / Dover and Margate mentioned before.

 

BW certainly seems to be well provided with carriage sidings, though it was a bit overprovided all round given that traffic never came up to expectation except during the BoPeep tunnel work in the 50s.

 

Interesting points about coal storage etc too, thanks.

[Artless Bodger]

Letting my mind wander on this; I dont suppose there might still be GWR carriages in the crimson lake livery around then to account for the second from the left? Or a brown vehicle? Birkenhead Woodside and the line serving it was originally joint GWR / LNWR, would an LMS carriage likely to have been in the consist?

[Nearholmer]

The destinations and splits varied by season, in summer peaks more than one train ran, and altered over the years, so it isn’t easy to nail things down without the relevant Bradshaw. There were other GWR trains to Hastings at various times too, I think possibly summer only, and IIRC from the West Midlands. In BR times I think they ran south on a Friday evening/night, and back on a Saturday morning, but I have a feeling that in earlier times there may have been coaches on circuits that involved them going south one Saturday, staying over the week, and back the next Saturday. There’s a thread about it all somewhere on here.

 

This doesn’t mention Hastings, but it adds a bit of flavour, being from a 1930s GWR holiday guide.

 

 

The equivalent LMS service was the Sunny South Express, which again varied in detail by season and date. I think at some dates/seasons a sprig of that got as far as Hastings (it’s main focii in Sussex were Brighton and Eastbourne), but I don’t think the coaches stayed over more than one night, except maybe on Saturday to Monday.

Edited November 10, 2022 by Nearholmer

[Miss Prism]

3 hours ago, Artless Bodger said:

Letting my mind wander on this; I dont suppose there might still be GWR carriages in the crimson lake livery around then to account for the second from the left? Or a brown vehicle? Birkenhead Woodside and the line serving it was originally joint GWR / LNWR, would an LMS carriage likely to have been in the consist?

 

Latest GWR crimson lake coach I've seen is about 1928. For 1936, all-brown was being used for some full brakes, but why would a full brake be parked there at BW? A dark-liveried non-GWR coach is therefore more likely in my opinion. 

 

[Wickham Green too]

Looking at the Reeve & Hawkins image, the second coach from left shows signs of a two tone livery at the ends and the near-consistent darkness between the light end panels may well be corridor windows and shadow within - look how dark the compartments seem at the 'outer' end of the Van Third and those of the Composite ( third left ) .......the fourth coach is more difficult to determine a bodyside colour - but I think the GWR were the only railway likely to use clerestory coaches on through workings at this date ..... and the only one still painting roofs white !

[Nick Holliday]

On 09/11/2022 at 15:53, Artless Bodger said:

Other interesting detail in the photo in the book show the extensive coal bins and their relationship to the wagons, 'Anthracite' coal wagons (anthracite being the chosen fuel for oast houses iirc), stacks of what appear to be building materials - earthenware pipes etc. There also appears to be a plank supported on trestles from a coal wagon (GW) into a coal bin - example of an elevated barrow-way? 

 

I've looked on the Britain From The Air site but no station views come up with a search of Bexhill or Bexhill West, there are no pins dropped on the map either.

 

Just thought this was a bit thought provoking / interesting.

 

Regards.

Although not the same date, there are several views showing Bexhill West on the Britain from Above website, like this one
https://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/en/image/EAW022972 The only problem is that they all seem to have been taken from south of the LBSCR show present similar distant, angled views of the SECR establishment.

[Tom Burnham]

Hmm...  I could believe the first and third from the left were Pullman cars.  Can't really see enough detail of the fourth from the left (with a clerestory).  Two of the Folkestone Car brake thirds were rebuilt as Pullman buffet cars Thistle and Albatross in 1919.  The "birdcage" roof observatories were removed and they were given full length clerestories (although I thought they curved down at the ends, this one seems to have vertical ends).  In 1931, Thistle and Albatross were converted for use as Pullman "supply" cars (all-kitchen cars).  See page 4 of Coupe News for a photo of Albatross in this livery - https://sremg.org.uk/coach/coupe/coupe079.pdf

As I understand it, Pullman "supply" cars weren't used regularly, mainly on special trains with a high requirement for dining, so might well be stored out of the way somewhere between times.

I'm not totally convinced by this suggestion, but put it forward for what it's worth.

[Artless Bodger]

The leftmost looks very much like the Hornby long clerestory brake, apart from the position of the guard's door and ducket, though I understand the Hornby coach is not correct with the duckets in line not offset. Thus toilet window, 3 compartments, ducket, guard's door, then 3 pairs of luggage / van space doors. Detail on the second is hardly visible but maybe large windows (corridor side?), the third coach looks like toilet window, 7 compartments (well spaced so maybe firsts?), toilet window. I have not been able to find a suitable image on a quick internet search with this layout. Looking for Birkenhead - Dover etc trains on the internet comes up with modern stuff - not sure how to adjust my search terms to concentrate on the historic aspects.

[Wickham Green too]

16 minutes ago, Artless Bodger said:

...  Detail on the second is hardly visible but maybe large windows (corridor side?),. ...

I interpret that as blank panel opposite toilet - corridor windows - blank panel opposite toilet.

[Nearholmer]

23 minutes ago, Artless Bodger said:

Looking for Birkenhead - Dover etc trains on the internet comes up with modern stuff

This is covered in another thread, where I gave information from references, but my (increasingly wonky) memory is telling me that by the late 30s both the GWR and the SR sets for these trains were modern coaches, late build Maunsell stock from the SR and contemporary GWR stock.