Vivarail files intention to appoint administrators

[APOLLO]

32 minutes ago, Mike_Walker said:

I have to defend Pacers.   they would purr along on CWR at 75mph as smoothly as any other 2nd generation DMU. 

 

I remember a "ride" on a pacer between Bolton and Salford on the long 75mph (or more) downhill CWR stretch just before electrification, rocking, rolling, screaming (the engines not me !!) - I've never been as scared on any train before. Horrible things and glad they are gone. I waited for a "proper train" after that.

 

For those concerned with Vivarail and it's "trains" (IF they are so good) why not build & test them here in the UK, paid for by our Government and donate them to third world needy countries under our generous overseas aid programme of countless millions ?

 

The benefits would be

 

1 Continuous employment for Vivarail, and development of the technology here in the UK

2. A real benefit to third world countries the people would benefit rather than stuffing cash in the back pocket of their leaders etc.

3. Another benefit for them is that these free trains would not incur eye watering interest payments the Chinese charge such countries for their foreign rail "investment"

4. Same could happen to all the other decent units awaiting scrapping, refurbish and gift under the foreign aid scheme.

5. Political I know but all / most foreign aid should be such, needed items manufactured in the UK gifted directly to the people (especially after natural disasters) - police the distribution to keep fat sweaty greedy fingers off it.

 

Lobby your MP for the above if you care about the units, foreign aid etc.- I will.

 

Brit15

[Nearholmer]

The foreign aid idea has something going for it IMO, although I don’t know enough about potential destination countries to know whether they actually need such trains - most that I’m aware of seem to need help with refurbishing track, and getting freight locos and wagons.

[APOLLO]

2 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

The foreign aid idea has something going for it IMO, although I don’t know enough about potential destination countries to know whether they actually need such trains - most that I’m aware of seem to need help with refurbishing track, and getting freight locos and wagons.

 

Wrong gauge but I'm sure there is a need for standard gauge trains in many countries given the Climate change / anti car global push.

 

https://thethaiger.com/news/national/japan-donates-cute-trains-to-thailand-ready-for-public-use-next-month

 

It will never happen, you can't stick a train in a brown envelope !!

 

Brit15

 

 

[Jim Martin]

Did the class 230s ever go into service on the Wrexham-Bidston line? Realtime Trains suggests that it's all class 150s (or, more accurately, a class 150) today.

 

I've not been a fan of the whole D-train concept, simply because it would never even have been suggested for travellers in the South East (although I accept that Bedford-Bletchley, while somewhat off the beaten track, is in the South East). Even so,  I'd take myself off to the Wirral if there was one to be ridden on, just for the sake of having ridden on it.

 

Jim

['CHARD]

4 minutes ago, Jim Martin said:

Did the class 230s ever go into service on the Wrexham-Bidston line? Realtime Trains suggests that it's all class 150s (or, more accurately, a class 150) today.

 

Jim

 

Hi Jim, two Class 150/2s have been transferred on loan (probably indefinitely, as it turns out) to TfW from Northern at Newton Heath, nominally to operate the Wrexham - Bidston diagrams, although they have turned up in South Wales too, other than for routine maintenance. 

 

This is because the 230s are still not in passenger service, the saga of getting the fleet over the line drags on.  There is a detailed debate of these issues on the rolling stock section of the UK Railway Discussion forum.  

[jjb1970]

Sad news for their employees. There's never a good time to find out your job may be about to vanish, but a month before Christmas is an especially bad time I think. 

[Nearholmer]

23 minutes ago, Jim Martin said:

simply because it would never even have been suggested for travellers in the South East

Travellers in the SE have for generations travelled on refurbished trains, for the simple reason that trains need to be refurbished about every 20 years if they are heavily used - the D stock itself was refurbed and got new bogies while with LT. 
 

The reason they were displaced from LT was ever-growing traffic, and the need for trains that could ram more people in the same (actually slightly greater) length and accelerate like rockets to allow more services per hour over the same track.

 

If you want to ride some trans that have been refurbed multiple times and are still plying their trade in the SE, go for a ride on the Bakerloo Line, or the Piccadilly Line. The 1972TS on the Bakerloo are I think the oldest EMUs in service in the country, and the infrastructure on that line is likewise a tad ‘heritage’.

 

PS: The Isle of Wight isn’t in the North of the country to my knowledge.

 

 

Edited November 26, 2022 by Nearholmer

[KeithMacdonald]

4 hours ago, APOLLO said:

this whole concept of foisting off rebuilt tatty, worn out old London Underground trains on the paying public was always questionable at the very least,

 

Well, if you say so, but it feels like a rather harsh response. It seemed to work for the Isle of Wight?

 

Quote

In keeping with Island Line’s traditions, the Class 484 trains were former London Underground trains, extensively refurbished by Vivarail in Long Marston. These newer trains have transformed the customer experience on the line, with upgraded interiors, plug sockets, at-seat charging points, wheelchair spaces and free WiFi.

https://www.southwesternrailway.com/travelling-with-us/our-trains/class-484

 

https://vivarail.co.uk/360s/SWR-261020_Interior/

[Mike_Walker]

Just read elsewhere that Roger Ford is awarding the Golden Spanner for the most reliable repurposed train this year to the IoW 484s so they can't be all that bad.

[KeithMacdonald]

47 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

For those concerned with Vivarail and it's "trains" (IF they are so good) why not build & test them here in the UK, paid for by our Government and donate them to third world needy countries under our generous overseas aid programme of countless millions ?

 

Do you have any specific "third world needy countries" in mind?

If you're thinking of Africa, too late, China has already taken over.

https://ascir.org/2021/11/18/why-china-is-building-africas-railways/

 

A lot of our "generous overseas aid programme of countless millions" took the form of "grants" and loan guarantees to buy British goods and services. Even then, we couldn't give it away.

[APOLLO]

44 minutes ago, KeithMacdonald said:

 

Do you have any specific "third world needy countries" in mind?

 

 

Scotland if Nicola gets her way !!!!!!!!!

 

Brit15

 

[DY444]

1 hour ago, Mike_Walker said:

Just read elsewhere that Roger Ford is awarding the Golden Spanner for the most reliable repurposed train this year to the IoW 484s so they can't be all that bad.

 

From a field of how many?  3 is it?  230s from the same stable and 769s being the others? 

['CHARD]

3 minutes ago, DY444 said:

 

From a field of how many?  3 is it?  230s from the same stable and 769s being the others? 

 

Presumably; I doubt Class 73/9 are in there (although their MTIN figures are probably worse than the 484s) and Class 69s are freight locos.  Any others are outliers and prototypes.

[Jim Martin]

20 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Travellers in the SE have for generations travelled on refurbished trains, for the simple reason that trains need to be refurbished about every 20 years if they are heavily used - the D stock itself was refurbed and got new bogies while with LT. 
 

The reason they were displaced from LT was ever-growing traffic, and the need for trains that could ram more people in the same (actually slightly greater) length and accelerate like rockets to allow more services per hour over the same track.

 

If you want to ride some trans that have been refurbed multiple times and are still plying their trade in the SE, go for a ride on the Bakerloo Line, or the Piccadilly Line. The 1972TS on the Bakerloo are I think the oldest EMUs in service in the country, and the infrastructure on that line is likewise a tad ‘heritage’.

 

PS: The Isle of Wight isn’t in the North of the country to my knowledge.

 

 

 

Refurbished trains are used everywhere, are they not? The class 507/508s that operate the Merseyrail network (still, as the testing of their replacements goes on and on and on and on...) have been refurbished multiple times but are increasingly knackered nevertheless. 

 

I'm not saying that every train in the provinces is a hand-me-down from the capital's pampered travellers: both Northern and TransPennine have significant fleets of nearly new stock (although in Northern's case it took the entire lifespan of the franchise for them to arrive). The point is that trains are rarely cascaded to the South-East, are they?

 

And I didn't compare the South East with the North: I compared it to everywhere. I'd put the Isle of Wight in the South-West, rather than the South-East, and certainly not in London's commuter hinterland; and people in the South West are every bit as voluble about public transport provision as those in the North: possibly with good reason.

[The Stationmaster]

I must admit to seriously wondering about the rapid charge idea right fro m the start.  the shore based element required the sort of space that could not easily be found at locations where land had been sold off (which is  probably most minor branch termini) but the power draw according to Vivarail's number was massive.  I'm not surprised there was found to be a supply problem in West London but I do wonder if it would be much different anywhere which is not very close to the highest voltage part of the distribution network.  

 

No doubt refinements would have come but electricity demand in most urban areas seems to be continually increasing as we are more and more told to use electricity in preference to other power sources.   

 

Overall Vivarail was a clever idea but like any sort of project it needs capital, and a continuing flow of it which was much greater than its sales to date would justify.  Maybe someone will put the money in but it will need a clear market for its output to persuade anyone to take that risk

[Nearholmer]

12 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

but the power draw according to Vivarail's number was massive.

It is, but that’s from the battery-store to the train. The draw on the mains is very small.

 

Think “water tower”, which fills slowly from a small-capacity supply, and empties into the tank on a locomotive very rapidly.

 

The size of the store wasn’t huge when I saw it, an ISO container.

[APOLLO]

As too old(ish) refurbished trains the 4 car 319 EMUs sent to the NW from London a few years ago are quite adequate, very much better than the DMU's they replaced. The recent Flex conversions to bi mode (769) are very good also. When used on the Southport Wigan Bolton Manchester & Hazel Grove or Stalybridge services they change mode at Bolton & Man Vic. Very noticeable is the noise difference - not that they are too noisy on diesel more like they are very quiet on electric. They do seem to struggle a tad on the gradient up from Lostock Jcn to Westhoughton though in diesel mode.

 

Pity Wigan Wallgate station can't be electrified (due to Wallgate bridge clearances) when the Bolton - Wigan NW electrification is complete, will they still change mode at Bolton ?

 

Brit15

 

 

 

 

[JeffP]

On 25/11/2022 at 21:15, APOLLO said:

 

Very concerning if true given the push to get people out of their cars and onto public transport. Also the London ULEZ zone expansion announced today.

 

Crazy times.

 

Brit15

Not sure "they" want the masses to travel at all.

Meanwhile, the rich will still jet off to luxury and tuck into lobster, foie gras and £150 steaks.

[jjb1970]

19 hours ago, Jim Martin said:

 

I'm not saying that every train in the provinces is a hand-me-down from the capital's pampered travellers: both Northern and TransPennine have significant fleets of nearly new stock (although in Northern's case it took the entire lifespan of the franchise for them to arrive). The point is that trains are rarely cascaded to the South-East, are they?

 

I'm not sure where you get the idea that travellers in the capital are pampered. Being a Northerner who commuted in/out of London for a few years and who worked in Southampton which is heading into the Southwest my experience is that trains services in the London commuter belt are much more frequent and intensive but the travelling experience was better when I lived and studied in Cumbria and the Northeast.

[Jim Martin]

8 minutes ago, jjb1970 said:

 

I'm not sure where you get the idea that travellers in the capital are pampered. 

"Hand-me-downs from the capital's pampered travellers" was meant to be taken as a whole, as an example of something that isn't necessarily the case. 

 

It remains the case, though, that cascading of superseded rolling stock is a one-way street.

[woodenhead]

42 minutes ago, Jim Martin said:

"Hand-me-downs from the capital's pampered travellers" was meant to be taken as a whole, as an example of something that isn't necessarily the case. 

 

It remains the case, though, that cascading of superseded rolling stock is a one-way street.

Typically because you pay out for something that needs intense use - be it mainline or branchline and then as it ages it can go to places where the usage will be a little less intense.  A bit like over 65s going to work at B&Q - we appreciate their experience but we don't expect them to be lifting massive loads anymore.

 

The clas 319/769 is a clear example, tis a pity the 365 couldn't find a home up north - would have been great for example for trains out of Leeds once lines get electrified, or even in Wales.  Some refurbishment, adding selective door operation, CCTV and air conditioning would have worked wonders.

[Nearholmer]

21 hours ago, Jim Martin said:

The point is that trains are rarely cascaded to the South-East, are they?

So which trains is it that you think are, or were, suitable to cascade north to south then?

 

I can’t think of a single fleet in the north that has been ‘bumped’ by rising demand/traffic and was/is suitable for use in London or the SE., primarily because the three big fleets in succession, first generation DMMUs, Pacers, and the 15X generation were all diesel, whereas almost all of the busy routes in the south are electrified.

 

Which I think brings up the real issue of railways in the north of England, which isn’t rolling stock cascades but the dreadfully slow pace of electrification.

 

 

[jjb1970]

Apparently use of the 230 trains are being ended for now because of concerns over maintenance and support. That's according to a FB post in my feed. If true it seems a poor show to bustitute at this stage.

[Nearholmer]

I think the contract Vivarail has is to provide “trains ready for traffic”, so if they can’t trade, they can’t make trains available.

 

Does anyone know what else LNW might have access to, and which crews are trained in, that could be deployed? I don’t know what they’ve got on lease, or what’s floating about in the market.

 

 

[Bucoops]

HSTs anyone?