A couple of RNAD questions

[Fair Oak Junction]

I was hoping someone out there could help me with some questions I have about the Royal Navy Armaments Depots, specifically related to narrow gauge systems.

Firstly did any of the narrow gauge depot systems use steam locos in the early days or were they petrol/diesel locos from the start?

Secondly does anyone know when these style of RNAD vans were first built?

 

Thanks

Edited November 29, 2022 by Obsidian Quarry

[happyChappy]

I'll bet someone, somewhere has an early photo of a steam loco at an MOD depot. Can't say I've seen one though. Perhaps if the depot didn't actually store explosives it would be acceptable otherwise it's petrol/diesel/battery motive power. You could possibly justify a steam loco on 'specials' such as track maintenance operations but definitely nowhere near any explosives magazines.

Sorry, I've no idea when those RNAD vans were originally built. Most depot photos show flat wagons with end planks, (like the planned Bachmann wagons), and tarpaulin sheets over the loads.

Edited November 29, 2022 by happyChappy

[Michael Hodgson]

I don't know what RNAD used, but fireless steam locos would have been considered acceptable in a facility handling explosives, although that would need some point where steam was available nearby to charge the loco from time to time, so they were perhaps more likely at a chemical factory rather than a munitions store.

 

Before internal combustion power was generally available, horses abounded and people knew how to handle them.  They were used with standard gauge stock so the weight of narrow gauge rolling stock would not have been an issue for them.  And manpower was always another practical option - the last time I saw matelots moving a wagon using ropes was the procession taking Her late Majesty's coffin through Westminster.

 

And of course despite the risks and a number of accidents, steam locos were used on the main line to haul ammunition/explosives, typically of course in the well-known gunpowder vans but also in open wagons.

 

[Nearholmer]

I’m 99% sure that the standard design of 4W chassis, van, open and flat wagons dates from the 1940s, and I think the definitive form of depot and 2ft 6in railway too, so no steam, but there were earlier iterations, stretching back into C19th, most notably Lodge Hill & Upnor, which had a greater variety of steam locos than you could shake a stick at, and some of the most interesting early internal combustion locos, as well as large battery electrics too.

 

Basic info, although there are numerous bits of the early loco history that are “not settled”, so some of this shouldn’t be taken as completely gospel truth. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chattenden_and_Upnor_Railway

[Fair Oak Junction]

Thank you everyone for all the bits of very useful info. Sounds like I might be better off with a plan based around a more generic, less explosive oriented RN depot/station/base where the use of steam wouldn't be as verboten as it would be at a proper armaments depot. I could still have one or two battery or internal combustion locos as well for variety.

Edited November 29, 2022 by Obsidian Quarry

[Siberian Snooper]

As far as I am aware the Royal Dockyards only had standard gauge, the exception was shifting tree trunks into the saw mills, which had short lengths of narrow gauge track and 4 wheel single bolsters, which were either moved manually or with a winch, oh and roperies, but they were indoors.

 

 

[happyChappy]

1 hour ago, Obsidian Quarry said:

Thank you everyone for all the bits of very useful info. Sounds like I might be better off with a plan based around a more generic, less explosive oriented RN depot/station/base where the use of steam wouldn't be as verboten as it would be at a proper armaments depot. I could still have one or two battery or internal combustion locos as well for variety.

This info about the Royal Arsenal railway network shows that steam was used in the early days:https://www.royal-arsenal-history.com/royal-arsenal-railway.html  . However, not really relevant to your specific RNAD questions.

 

A generic RN depot with no explosives stored on site sounds like a fair 'excuse' to use steam. Maybe someone could suggest a real-life site as an example? Here's some Wiki info on all RNAD sites but it doesn't include any without armaments:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Naval_Armaments_Depot#Under_the_Board_of_Ordnance Perhaps the 'A' in RN'A'D is the clue!

[Nearholmer]

Woolwich was 18” gauge too, I’m fairly sure, as per the Arsenal lines, which is a bit thin to be represented by 009.

 

 

Edited November 29, 2022 by Nearholmer

[Dava]

There is an Amberley book on MOD Railways by Michael Hitchen, it has details of the RNAD wagons and both ng and sg rail systems.

 

There is an IRS book, oop, on Army railways which included lots of steam locos, mainly Austerity tanks. 
 

Some Royal IOrdnance munitions depots had steam locos. I started a no longer available RmWeb thread in 2014 on the small Peckett ‘Yorktown’ 0-4-0ST of which ‘Teddy’ is the surviving example. A batch of these locos were built for munitions depot use. One later worked for Cadbury, anotherColmans Mustard. 
 

Note that the RNAD depots were for munitions storage and entirely separate from the munitions (Royal IOrdnance) factories and army depots. 
 

Dava

 

forgive iPad input errors 

[Nearholmer]

When it comes to narrow gauge, which is what the OP asked about, I’m really struggling to think of Admiralty/RN steam worked sites beyond Upnor and the shore/estuary forts  of the C19th, some f which had 18” gauge lines. There were some overseas sites, Gibraltar had 3ft gauge IIRC, but I can’t think of British ones, unless maybe the Davington LR was admiralty, but I think that was part of the Cotton Powder Company.

[Fair Oak Junction]

Thanks again everyone for the additional info and suggestions. Any project I may do based on RNAD or something naval would be purely freelance, a micro layout for no better reason than I really like the RNAD vans Bachmann are doing but I also wanted to include my love of narrow gauge steam. My plan was also to include the use of a couple of old 1/72 Airfix RN kits I've had for yonks! 😄 The answers in this thread have at least shown there is a plausibility to the idea, even if it was very rare.

Edited November 29, 2022 by Obsidian Quarry

[Fen End Pit]

What about Calshot?

 

https://www.hampshireairfields.co.uk/handdaf/cal/calex.jpg

 

David

[Nearholmer]

Calshot was Air Ministry, wasn’t it?

 

That loco is marked AMWB, Air Ministry Works & Buildings.

Edited November 29, 2022 by Nearholmer

[happyChappy]

11 hours ago, Fen End Pit said:

What about Calshot?

 

https://www.hampshireairfields.co.uk/handdaf/cal/calex.jpg

 

David

Calshot was a rather strange one. Not quite RNAD it was a Royal Naval Air Station for flying boats and was linked to the staff encampment at nearby Eaglehurst by a 2' 6" gauge railway. The photo appears to show a staff train en-route between the two. Interesting 'luxury' carriages.

[Mark Saunders]

The other one that seemed wrong was the RNAD at Eaglescliffe; completely land locked.

 

It was where the MoD hot core was maintained when new but it wasn’t that far from the Head Wrightson works where it was built.

[Nearholmer]

43 minutes ago, happyChappy said:

Calshot was a rather strange one. Not quite RNAD it was a Royal Naval Air Station for flying boats

 

Seems that it flipped about between being an RFC, RNAS, RFC again, and eventually RAF operation, so no wonder the railway didnt know who it belonged to. I've walked the route of the line, and did have a copy of the book about it, but I gave that away so can't check details. The gauge was definitetly 2ft, not 2ft 6in though, becase the loco 'Douglas' had to be up-gauged to work on the Talyllyn.

 

Photo of Douglas in very original condition here, plated for Air Service Constructional Corps, which was a sort of RN "in house contractor" for building airfields. https://www.deviantart.com/thebluev3/art/Talyllyn-No-6-Douglas-works-photo-478450236  The loco and railway must have passed to AMW&B with the site.

Edited November 30, 2022 by Nearholmer

[Fair Oak Junction]

Calshot has been something I would have loved to model for years, but the space I would need to realise my vision of it is out of reach in my current circumstances.

I've got some ideas floating around that I'll try and flesh out more in the new year.

[Nearholmer]

Do you remember the Calshot-inspired diorama made by I think Henk Wurst, which he brought over and showed at Expong c15 years ago? Brilliant!

 

 

 

Edited November 30, 2022 by Nearholmer

[Fat Controller]

42 minutes ago, Mark Saunders said:

The other one that seemed wrong was the RNAD at Eaglescliffe; completely land locked.

 

It was where the MoD hot core was maintained when new but it wasn’t that far from the Head Wrightson works where it was built.

It was bad enough having RN establishments away from the sea; what was even worse was when they gave them ship's names!  During WW2, Lord Haw-Haw claimed that the Luftwaffe had sunk HMS ******; Churchill had to be reassured this was not the case, as said 'vessel' was an office block in Dover.

[Nearholmer]

Yes, my maternal grandmother served as a Wren in HMS ???? as a part-time telephonist, and her younger sister, who had no children at the time, on the same "ship" as a full time PT instructor, neither leaving dry land. Their brothers did all go to sea, the youngest not returning from a diving accident.

[DIW]

On 29/11/2022 at 22:36, Fen End Pit said:

What about Calshot?

 

https://www.hampshireairfields.co.uk/handdaf/cal/calex.jpg

 

David

 

22 hours ago, happyChappy said:

Calshot was a rather strange one. Not quite RNAD it was a Royal Naval Air Station for flying boats and was linked to the staff encampment at nearby Eaglehurst by a 2' 6" gauge railway. The photo appears to show a staff train en-route between the two. Interesting 'luxury' carriages.

 

21 hours ago, Obsidian Quarry said:

Calshot has been something I would have loved to model for years, but the space I would need to realise my vision of it is out of reach in my current circumstances.

I've got some ideas floating around that I'll try and flesh out more in the new year.

 

21 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Do you remember the Calshot-inspired diorama made by I think Henk Wurst, which he brought over and showed at Expong c15 years ago? Brilliant!

 

 

 

Perhaps a few words from @SouthernRegionSteam will help, if he is available? He exhibited his Calshot layout around the shows a few years ago.

[petethemole]

Priddy's Hard, Gosport had a NG system, originally 18" and man-powered, but later regauged to 2' 6", using Greenwood & Batley battery electric locos.  Source: The Hidden Railways of Portsmouth & Gosport, Dave Marden.

Edited December 1, 2022 by petethemole
correction

[SouthernRegionSteam]

5 hours ago, DIW said:

Perhaps a few words from @SouthernRegionSteam will help, if he is available? He exhibited his Calshot layout around the shows a few years ago.

 

Many thanks for drawing my attention to this thread!
It sounds like the OP has perhaps done a little research about Calshot beforehand, so I'll try to be brief about it's history (Edit: OK, that failed, but still...). Hopefully I can then impart some of my own research/experience which may or may not be useful!

This website has a few pages of interest; including a decent map of the site.

The base

• Opened in 1913 as "Calshot Naval Air Station", it was built as part of a defence line under Admiralty orders.
• During WWI, it's uses involved convoy protection and anti-submarine patrols, as well as the training of seaplane/flying boat crews. The nearby camp at Eaglehurst was built to accommodate ground staff and aircraft crews, and a huge expansion of buildings on the spit itself happened in 1917.
• In April 1918, the Royal Naval Air Service (RNAS) and Royal Flying Corps were amalgamated; forming the Royal Air Force (RAF), however, I'm not sure that the base changed to reflect this. By November, the base was certainly renamed as the School of Naval Co-operation and Aerial Navigation; primarily used as a training base for maritime air and boat crews.
• In 1922 - the base was finally renamed RAF Calshot. Once again, it's core use was the training of crews for both seaplanes and marine craft.
• The Schneider Trophy Race was held just off the I.o.W in 1929 and 1931, whereby RAF Calshot was used as a base for the RAF High Speed Flight crews, and also for the Italians. It was earlier used in 1927 for training ahead of the same Race in Venice.
• The base remained primarily as a training base, as it had done for most of its life, certainly until 1938.
• 1938/39 saw preparations for WWII - anti-aircraft guns were built; I believe on top of the Tudor castle. At Eaglehurst, trenches were dug and camouflage added to the building's roofs. Surprisingly, the spit was finally bought outright from its owners (Fawley Investment Company) and was cleared of its many bathing/beach huts!
  • Additionally, the two squadrons based at Calshot were relocated to Scotland - the vulnerability of Calshot to air attacks meant it unsuitable as a 'front line' base.
• 1940, and 5 seaplane tenders were sent to Dunkirk to help with evacuation efforts. Whilst 2 beached, the remaining 3 saved over 500 lives. Whilst flying boat crew training stopped in 1940, with the Marine Training School leaving in 1942, Calshot became a base for the RAF's Air Sea Rescue Unit.
• Throughout the rest of the war, the base was used as a maintenance base for three squadrons; with an increase in priority of marine craft servicing and training.
• In 1946, three units were allocated to Calshot; all of which used Short Sunderland aircraft. These flew 1000+ sorties to Berlin to bring much needed equipment, whilst also taking refugees on their way back.
• By 1948, most units left, with only 2 Short Sunderlands remaining. The last flying boat unit left in 1953.
• 1950s - Eaglehurst camp closed, but was revived in the 1960s as temporary accommodation for displaced persons from Tristan da Cunha.
• The base ticked over as a Maintenance Unit, until the entire site closed in 1961.

The railway

• The railway (2ft gauge) was originally a contractors line, built to aid construction of the base expansion in 1916/1917. It must be remembered that the standard gauge Fawley Branch didn't open until 1925 - and with gravel roads on this remote corner of the Forest, the only sensible ways of transporting materials was by barge, and then using a narrow gauge railway to distribute across the site. Henry Boot & Son (Westminster), the contractors, built the narrow gauge railway - it used conventional contractors stock (i.e. predominantly tipper wagons, with engines like Hudswell Clarke and Robert Hudson well tanks, but also petrol mechanical locos like 0-4-0PM Baguleys).
• After construction had finished; a Kerr, Stuart 'Wren' class locomotive was being used, with 2 further locomotives joining it - Andrew Barclay 'E' class 0-4-0WTs. The 'Wren' class was scrapped by 1923. The two 'E' class locos were painted green - and were repainted by drivers as required. One was swapped with a similar loco from another railway after repairs became too expensive.
• Rolling stock was built by Messrs G. R. Turner Ltd somewhen before 1921. There were 22 vehicles; 11 without roofs for stores conveyance (only 2 remained by 1939), 10 with roofs for passengers (each had a large overhang to protect against rain, although only two had their sides boarded in for use by Officers), and finally, 1 covered wagon for rations. All rolling stock was grey, and unnumbered, though there were tare/gross weight details. Signage was limited to either A.M     W.& B., or A.M.W.D depending on period. All were 5ft wide - much wider than typical WDLR stock - hence the custom builds. There was also a bogie ambulance wagon, but was relegated to use as a railway store behind the engine shed after it kept derailing on curves - it was scrapped along with 9 of the open wagons.
• A shorter line to a gravel pit near Eaglehurst was also built, and was used to transport gravel for the building of the base expansion. The two railways didn't join up, but came very close.
• Sleepers on the line at the time of abandonment looked to be standard gauge sleepers cut into two, though the rail weight varied - some sections were replaced with heavier rail during WWII.
• The lines layout changed over the years as new buildings were put up. Some of the early temporary contractor lines were actually upgraded and used as the 'main line' of the railway.
• Whilst there was a turning triangle, it was never used as one.
• The railway served 2 piers; one was the War Department Pier/North Pier, and the 2nd was the Powerhouse Pier - where coal was unloaded from barges. This siding crossed another one (that fed 'A' shed and possibly the store building); almost at right angles.
• There was a passing loop near to the large hangar, but was relocated closer to the shore end of the spit adjacent to the HQ due to construction commencing on some new buildings. When this new passing loop was installed (and with the rest of the mainline towards the spit relocated to the other side of the road), a new short platform was built in front of a store building.
• There was actually an explosives store adjacent to the 'main line', although there was no siding leading to it.
• From what I can tell, sidings served; the two piers, two of the hangars, the store, an incinerator, the dining hall and NAAFI, and also until 1918; the ready-issue store.
• At Eaglehurst Camp, sidings served; the Officer's Mess, a Cookhouse (via a long spur off a turntable) until the 1930s, a Paint Store, a Coal Pound, and the three-track engine shed.
• Abandonment came in 1945, after a celebratory bonfire marking the end of WWII escalated into the upturning of several wagons - with the intention of burning them for fuel for the fire. Whilst none made it to the bonfire, upon re-railing the wagons the next morning, it was discovered that they were all rotten. Closure had already been considered due to the lack of air-braked stock and rising maintenance cost - the bonfire was the final nail in the coffin!

If you would like a copy of "The Calshot and Fawley Narrow Gauge Railways" by Frederick W. Cooper/Plateway Press, please let me know - over 10 years ago (when I built my first layout based on Calshot), I bought one copy, and was given a 2nd; so you'd be welcome to it. It has trackplans, tons of photos, a list of locomotives, and is also where most of this information comes from.

My ideas/models

Like you, I struggled to work out how to fit the essence of, what was a very long and thin site, onto a small single board layout. As an additional complexity, I also wanted to have both OO9 and OO gauge stock! As an aside, the initial plan for the Totton and Fawley Light Railway (the standard gauge Fawley Branch) did make note of a possible extension to Calshot - possibly to serve the RAF base. That's how I managed a semi-plausible plan for both gauges. Anyway, Calshot MkI was initially born as this:

 

 

It was originally just a standard gauge imagineering of the line; featuring a low-relief hangar, a slipway in front of it, a little goods platform, a cafe, and a lifeboat station. As this was to be set in the 50s, there wouldn't have been the narrow gauge line. However, the more I read into the narrow gauge line, and what was shown in the book, the more I wanted to add a narrow gauge railway; so the layout soon saw a OO9 line laid in front, as shown above. The rolling stock, by the way, is all modified Parkside Dundas, I believe. The 'Tin Turtle' was scratchbuilt by a friend.

 

 A re-think in 2011 (I was now about 18) made me question the entire plan, and I wanted much more play value/operating potential from the narrow gauge line - so I came up with this:

 

 

The layout was rebuilt, and a narrow gauge railway now ran around the front of the castle, and through the hangar. Operation was limited to a passing loop with one siding. It also contained a standard gauge aspect - which didn't differ much from the original layout. As you can see, I focused more on the prototype than before; with two hangars instead of one, a larger slipway, the brick-built communications building, and a radar tower atop the castle. I'll be honest, it's not the neatest bit of modelling, but that was 10+ years ago!

 

I've often said that I'd love to revisit it, but I have to say that personally I'd like to include more of the spit itself - in particular the sea and beach. The problems with RAF Calshot as a modellable subject include the vast spread-out nature of the site, and the huge buildings that dwarf everything; so you either need a large amount of space to model it in its entirety, or you let the buildings form the backdrop themselves. The latter would certainly suit itself to a small layout; and you won't have to worry about scenic exits too much if you focus on the building placement. There were tons of interesting buildings to choose from; the castle, hangars, a powerhouse, firing range, canteen, headquarters, stores... the list goes on! Here's some incredible aerial imagery from Britain from Above - if you don't have an account, I highly recommend you create one so that you can zoom in on the images.

One final thing - here's a 3D model of the Eaglehurst engine shed and stores building I made in 2011, based on one photo from the book - just in case it's of interest:

 

If I can help in any way, let me know, and I'll see what advice or pointers I can give!

Edited December 1, 2022 by SouthernRegionSteam

[Fair Oak Junction]

Thank you so much for all that fantastic info about Calshot! While I knew some bits about the site, that certainly has taught me a lot. And you most definitely succeeded in capturing lovely snapshots of the site with your two layouts, wonderful work! Once my account namesake slate quarry project has come to fruition in the new year I'll properly knuckle down and work out what I want to do with a small narrow gauge military layout, whether to base it more on Calshot with its naval aviation or go RN vessel based.

 

Edit: Also by then hopefully I'll know exactly how much room I can dedicate towards the project! 😄

Edited December 1, 2022 by Obsidian Quarry

[coline33]

More on modelling RNAD railways can now be found in the "Narrow Gauge Modelling" forum under topic "RNAD railways - locos, rolling stock, loads and buildings in 009".