Pre-'Quail Maps' B.R. track diagrams.

[C126]

Thanks to @30851 's answer to my Fratton Yard layout query, I have found John Yonge's wonderful 1978-1981 B.R. Southern Region track maps.  I take my hat off to Mr Yonge for his work, but wonder if anyone published similarly detailed maps/diagrams of B.R.'s network in earlier years.  If anyone can provide bibliographic details, I hope I will not be alone in finding them useful.  Many thanks for any references anyone can give, and as always for giving this topic your consideration.

[30851]

Not just Southern - I have John's West Midlands map for the same time period. I am not sure where I bought them from but it may have been Foyles in London back in the early 80's. Also not sure if there were other of these maps on sale but there certainly wasn't an East Midlands or Manchester one as I would have bought that! Only ever saw them that once for sale and didn't come across anything similar until the well know Quail maps appeared.

 

 

Edit to add - Glad you found my answer useful!

 

 

Rob

Edited December 10, 2022 by 30851

[Bill Jamieson]

Although it doesn't answer your query in terms of books, and you may be aware of it already, the National Library of Scotland maps website covers the whole of the country at 25 inches to the mile. While the newest mapping is no more recent than the 1930s or '40s, I suspect that track layouts would be substantially unchanged into the 1960s at most locations. As an example, here's the sheet covering Fratton Yard, or at least most of it - Sod's law probably dictates that whatever location one is most interested in will inevitably spread over at least two sheets!

https://maps.nls.uk/view/105989353

Bill

Edited February 4, 2023 by Bill Jamieson

[C126]

Thanks @Bill Jamieson for your addition.  I should add there is the (incomplete) series of S.R. track diagrams by G. A. Pryer, 'Track layout diagrams of the Southern Railway and B.R. (S.R.)', Harwell : R. A. Cooke, 1980-1987.  V.4 (of 10) is Portsmouth (and area, I assume), but I have yet to see a copy.

 

These take a 'historical' perspective, illustrating a track layout's history, indicating sidings, crossings, etc., with date of installation and removal where possible.  Best wishes to you all.

[melmerby]

Ian Allan in Brum used to sell the reprints of some earlier maps, Mainly BR (W) and some others. They were about A4 size softbacks I think?

I can't recall who they were by, maybe the Pryer ones?

 

The first Quail maps were just paper sheets, they even did one of New York/New Jersey area (which I have, somewhere)

 

 

 

 

Edited February 4, 2023 by melmerby

[Peter Kazmierczak]

There's the Swift series covering the LMR - available from the SRS.

[C126]

Thanks, @Peter Kazmierczak , for that reference.  See the S.R.S. web-site here:

 

https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/Bookstall/index.php?route=product/category&path=59_71_68

 

(Why did my school's careers teacher not tell me of a job possible on a "Shunting Analysis Committee"?!)

[26power]

On 04/02/2023 at 15:36, Bill Jamieson said:

Although it doesn't answer your query in terms of books, and you may be aware of it already, the National Library of Scotland maps website covers the whole of the country at 25 inches to the mile. While the newest mapping is no more recent than the 1930s or '40s, I suspect that track layouts would be substantially unchanged into the 1960s at most locations. As an example, here's the sheet covering Fratton Yard, or at least most of it - Sod's law probably dictates that whatever location one is most interested in will inevitably spread over at least two sheets!

https://maps.nls.uk/view/105989353

Bill

If you use the georeferenced or side by side options on the NLS website then you don’t need to worry about a location being on more than one sheet because these options have all the sheets joined together!  As an example here’s the 25” coverage for part of Edinburgh:

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=14.7&lat=55.93816&lon=-3.24055&layers=168&b=1
 

The most recent detailed mapping in the drop down list is also now something like 1944-1972 at 1:1250 or 1:2500.

Using a slider you can also compare the mapping with, say, recent aerial photography.
 

 All in all hours of distraction!

 

Hope this helps.

[Oldddudders]

Do I recall from about 50 years ago a chap called Clinker offering track layouts?

[Michael Hodgson]

I thought clinker was what you had left in the firebox after your steam engine had finished it's day's work?

 

 

I have somewhere a map produced as a large sheet of paper many years ago covering the whole track layout of the London Underground.

 

There's also a number of versions of a book in large format containing maps laboriously hand-drawn by a Mr Jowett, endeavouring to show all the railways and former railways in the country, including Ireland, although it doesn't go down to the actual track layouts, a sort of more comprehensive all-time version of the well-known Ian Allan pre-grouping Atlas.  I don't know how comprehensive or accurate it is, but this was obviously an extremely time consuming hobby (obsession?) of the this gentleman, and of course doesn't include changes his since his death.  It includes an idiosyncratic index of stations, engines sheds, etc (also published in hand-written form) and including both routes and stations where a line was diverted or an old station was replaced by a later one, with map references.  The index is shown on one page with the associated map on the opposite page.

 

 

[Michael Hodgson]

On 04/02/2023 at 16:57, C126 said:

Thanks @Bill Jamieson for your addition.  I should add there is the (incomplete) series of S.R. track diagrams by G. A. Pryer, 'Track layout diagrams of the Southern Railway and B.R. (S.R.)', Harwell : R. A. Cooke, 1980-1987.  V.4 (of 10) is Portsmouth (and area, I assume), but I have yet to see a copy.

 

These take a 'historical' perspective, illustrating a track layout's history, indicating sidings, crossings, etc., with date of installation and removal where possible.  Best wishes to you all.

The Pryer series of booklets was entitled "Signal Box Diagrams of the Great Western & Southern Railways", published in numerous volumes (A4 paper back about 50 pages each) by the late George Pryer himself, and includes details of signalling, with annotations of (some) historical changes, eg dates that a crossover or sidings were removed.  They also include notes as the architectural style of the box (SRS classifications), the type of lever frame or block instruments, where known and whether or not the box was provided with a closing switch to allow through trains to be run when the box was unmanned overnight.

 

The similar Cooke series does not show signalling details, just the layout of the track (often at two or three different dates) but is to scale whereas the Pryer series is purely diagrammatic.  The author includes Clinker (and others of course) in the credits for his sources.

 

The OPC series of books "A Historical Survey of Selected Stations of the... Railway", by a number of different authors includes scale plans and/or signalbox diagrams of some of the stations on the railway covered, as well as a few photos of each of the stations concerned.  This covered GWR (4 volumes), LMS (2 Vols), Southern (Vol. 1, possibly more).  I know the authors of the LMS books had planned to do a third volume, but the series was dropped by OPC.  There was however also a very similar series "A Historical Survey of  the ... Layouts and Illustrations" covering the Somerset & Dorset Rly, the Forest of Dean railways, the Midland in GloucestershireChester & Holyhead Rly, Didcot Newbury & Southampton Rly, , and maybe others.

 

OPC also published "Complete British Railways Maps and Gazettteer from 1930-1981" by CJ WIgnall, with lines colour coded as to whetehr they were still open (at pubicationn date, obviously), closed in or after Beeching, or before then, still open freight only, or preserved lines, but again not down to track layout detail.

[wasabi]

A friend of mine has a copy of Jowett and it is a very good Atlas, although I think very pricey.  I also recall someone telling me that Quail has origins at the University of Exeter, where he was a student, but haven't been able to call him to check.  I think he said that they employed students for some of the work.  They did do quite a seIection and I have about 15 of the international fold-out sheets, plus the Atlas' for I think China and Ukraina.  Some I remember buying in Motor Books and others from the company.  I did always wonder how they got hold of some of the information, although DPRK is incomplete and what they used could be from Japanese sources.  It looks like Trackmaps is either a new name or acquired the business at some point.   

[wasabi]

Should have added that the UK products seem to sell well to track bashers, giving the number I used to see on railtours colouring in the books as the tour progressed.

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, Michael Hodgson said:

OPC also published "Complete British Railways Maps and Gazettteer from 1930-1981" by CJ WIgnall, with lines colour coded as to whetehr they were still open (at pubicationn date, obviously), closed in or after Beeching, or before then, still open freight only, or preserved lines, but again not down to track layout detail.

IMHO they are awful

Not to any sort of scale, they even vary vertically against horizontally.

They are also unconventionally in reverse order as you turn over pages, which is very disconcerting.

e.g. as a track disappears off the right of the page you have to turn back to the previous page to see the continuation come in on the left.

 

If you want a dead to scale atlas of UK railways, Colonel Cobb's atlas is overlaid on 6th series OS one inch maps.

However it is not cheap, I paid £150 (new) for my second edition when it was published.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Some thoughts:

 

1. Clinker was just about dates of closures - stations, goods yard, etc. Def the best source of such material for its time (1970s). Was a type-written publication, with subsequent supplements.

 

2. Jowett's Atlases - some luv 'em, others hate 'em. Personally, I find his cartography poorly done. Lettering is uneven and heavy handed; some of the locations are difficult to decipher. 

 

3. Joe Brown (not the singer...) has done a series of atlases on London, Birmingham and Liverpool/Manchester. I find these very good, from both an historical and cartographical view.

 

4. Malthouse has published an atlas covering the SW of England. Again, I can recommend that.

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

On 05/02/2023 at 11:38, C126 said:

Thanks, @Peter Kazmierczak , for that reference.  See the S.R.S. web-site here:

 

https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/Bookstall/index.php?route=product/category&path=59_71_68

 

(Why did my school's careers teacher not tell me of a job possible on a "Shunting Analysis Committee"?!)

Probably because it was really called 'work study' and lots of folk didn't fancy that idea 👀

 

50 minutes ago, Peter Kazmierczak said:

Some thoughts:

 

 

2. Jowett's Atlases - some luv 'em, others hate 'em. Personally, I find his cartography poorly done. Lettering is uneven and heavy handed; someof the locations are difficult to decipher. 

 

 

I like the hand drawn quirkiness of it but your comments are spot on - plus it has omissions which doesn't help at all.

 

But in general OS maps are not good for track layouts - they are basically snap shots of when the original survey recorded, and can even be lacking in detail for that.  But they totally fail to keep pace with developments and changes as re-survey was at protracted intervals and checking for detail changes in between relied very much on people telling the OS what was happening - and they didn't.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Re-OS maps; large scale 25" / 50". In addition to what Mike notes above, OS cartographers never really understood about single/double slips, tandem turnouts and trap points... So treat them with caution.

[4069]

3 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

The Pryer series of booklets was entitled "Signal Box Diagrams of the Great Western & Southern Railways", published in numerous volumes (A4 paper back about 50 pages each) by the late George Pryer himself, and includes details of signalling, with annotations of (some) historical changes, eg dates that a crossover or sidings were removed.  They also include notes as the architectural style of the box (SRS classifications), the type of lever frame or block instruments, where known and whether or not the box was provided with a closing switch to allow through trains to be run when the box was unmanned overnight.

 

The similar Cooke series does not show signalling details, just the layout of the track (often at two or three different dates) but is to scale whereas the Pryer series is purely diagrammatic.  The author includes Clinker (and others of course) in the credits for his sources.

That is all true, but @C126 was correct in his reference to

 

Quote

the (incomplete) series of S.R. track diagrams by G. A. Pryer, 'Track layout diagrams of the Southern Railway and B.R. (S.R.)', Harwell : R. A. Cooke, 1980-1987.  V.4 (of 10) is Portsmouth (and area, I assume), but I have yet to see a copy.

 

These take a 'historical' perspective, illustrating a track layout's history, indicating sidings, crossings, etc., with date of installation and removal where possible. 

This is an earlier publication, entirely separate from the signalbox diagrams, and published by Cooke alongside his own set of GWR track plans. The set I have covers the whole of the ex-LSWR lines in nine volumes, but it then stopped at Vol.10 (West Sussex).

Edited April 1, 2023 by 4069

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, 4069 said:

That is all true, but @C126 was correct in his reference to

 

This is an earlier publication, entirely separate from the signalbox diagrams, and published by Cooke alongside his own set of GWR track plans. The set I have covers the whole of the ex-LSWR lines in nine volumes, but it then stopped at Vol.10 (West Sussex).

I don't know how many volumes Cooke's "Track Layout Diagrams of the GWR and BR(WR)" ran to, but I have Section 36 (Ross ,Monmouth & Chepstow), third edition 1998, so it was certainly extensive and available fairly late.

[melmerby]

-

One not mentioned is "Midland Railway System Maps, the Distance Diagrams" which have been taken from the Midland (& Later LMS) originals.

It's 5 volumes in A4 paperback format with the 5th being the index and updates volume.

 

They are mainly line diagrams with each track represented individually. e.g. single line is a ticked line, double is a solid line, 4 tracks are two solid lines.

At busy/complicated locations a larger scale map is provided.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

24 minutes ago, melmerby said:

-

One not mentioned is "Midland Railway System Maps, the Distance Diagrams" which have been taken from the Midland (& Later LMS) originals.

It's 5 volumes in A4 paperback format with the 5th being the index and updates volume.

 

They are mainly line diagrams with each track represented individually. e.g. single line is a ticked line, double is a solid line, 4 tracks are two solid lines.

At busy/complicated locations a larger scale map is provided.

 

In my humble opinion, some of the best line diagrams of a complete system ever produced; combining accuracy and style.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

5 hours ago, wasabi said:

A friend of mine has a copy of Jowett and it is a very good Atlas, although I think very pricey.  

Whilst I have many reservations about these, I did surcome to buying the three of them off ebay, earlier this year, for under £30 the lot - subsequently I found that one of the books had been signed by the author; a bonus!

[4069]

2 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

I don't know how many volumes Cooke's "Track Layout Diagrams of the GWR and BR(WR)" ran to, but I have Section 36 (Ross ,Monmouth & Chepstow), third edition 1998, so it was certainly extensive and available fairly late.

I'm sorry if I didn't make myself clear. Cooke's GWR Track diagrams runs to volume 61 (and is still being added to, now published by Lightmoor Press). Pryer's SR track diagrams stopped at volume 10, back in 1987, and George Pryer died in 2004.

Edited April 1, 2023 by 4069

[C126]

May I just thank you all for this sudden 'burst of knowledge' contributing to my question.  Sorry I have only just read them; away for a long weekend.  Will give this thread my full attention over Easter.  Many thanks in haste, Neil.

[Nick C]

Another that I don't think has been mentioned is "Atlas of the Southern Railway", Harman & Nichols, Ian Allen 2016