Removed platforms at Salford Central station

[GordonC]

There used to be platforms on the Liverpool lines at Salford Central station, why were they removed and not put back?

[woodenhead]

30 minutes ago, GordonC said:

There used to be platforms on the Liverpool lines at Salford Central station, why were they removed and not put back?

The platforms only ever served the L&Y lines that went to where is now Salford Crescent, the other lines were LNWR from Exchange, the first station being Ordsall Lane, round the curve.

 

The map shows the original 4 platforms reduced to two I am guessing when Victoria was remodelled and Salford Crescent opened which affected the trackwork after Salford Central.  There was a plan to bring 3+4 back into use for the Ordsall curve work, but clearly with all the changes since then that is presently on a back burner, if not abandoned completely.  Had these platforms been brought into use it would have been the first time that trains on the Chat Moss routeto Liverpool could stop at Central I believe

 

 

The new tracks for the Ordsall Curve etc certainly pass along the site of the old platforms so hopefully one day the funding will be there to reinstate.

Edited December 15, 2022 by woodenhead

[Moxy]

Those LNWR platforms at Salford Central have been out of use for donkeys years.

 

I first started commuting into Manchester in 1987 & they were disused then.

 

Have they actually removed the old platforms now?

[woodenhead]

31 minutes ago, Moxy said:

Those LNWR platforms at Salford Central have been out of use for donkeys years.

 

I first started commuting into Manchester in 1987 & they were disused then.

 

Have they actually removed the old platforms now?

L&Y platforms.

[Moxy]

1 hour ago, woodenhead said:

L&Y platforms.

 

I'm confused.

 

Are you saying the platforms most recently in use (1 & 2) were ex LNWR & the long disused platforms (3 & 4) were ex L&Y?

 

If that is the case, the LNWR lines are on the wrong side of Salford Central to access Manchester Exchange, they would have to cross the L&Y lines to get there.

 

Manchester Exchange would be just off the top right of the modern map.  There are two office blocks on the site of Exchange nowadays. (The company I work for is in one them).

 

It always struck me as strange that they haven't reinstated the disused platforms at Salford Central, particularly after they reduced the number of through platforms at Victoria, and how busy it has subsequently become.  With the opening of the Ordsall Curve they could have made better use of Salford Central.

Edited December 15, 2022 by Moxy
Clarity

[Bishops road]

All four platforms were L&Y two on the fast lines and two on the slow lines on their line from Manchester Victoria to either Liverpool Exchange or Preston. The LNWR lines from Liverpool Lime Street into Manchester Exchange passed to the south of Salford Central but never had any platforms or connected to it in anyway 

[adb968008]

Salford central (it was just called Salford in my day) declined after Salford Crescent opened.

 

It had 4 platforms as a kid, but the lines out towards Eccles have never had any platforms in my lifetime. Salford was gradually rundown from the 1960s, Pendleton Broad Street closed and Salford was further rundown after Windsor Link was built, then Pendleton station was closed.  Many services simply skipped it Salfords stations.

 

Salford Central was a scary place as a kid, everything outside it was rundown, falling down or demolished. Lots of dodgy types outside. I was surprised it was still open as I never saw anyone use it. I thought it was going to close after Salford Royal Hospital closed in 1994, which was about the only human friendly location in the area.

in my collection I have a black and white station sign from one of the closed platforms.

it seemed more used as a holding point if Victoria was full. I recall getting off a 104 at Salford and not being able to get off the platform as it was locked. I waited for another train stop and got back on.

 

it seems like a lot of investment has gone into the area since the dark days of the 1980’s.

 

What i never understood was why Salford Crescent wasnt extended to 4 platforms, or at least 3. It was touted to replace Salford and Pendleton, it  was supposed to have better bus connections. It took all the demand from Salford, people simply taking the bus towards town. But its always existed as that single narrow platform.

 

Clifton is the other abandoned station on the Bolton line, but since 2013 it feels like its the Bolton line itself they are trying to run down… prior to that it was the Walken line that was the withered arm.

Edited December 15, 2022 by adb968008

[Wheatley]

I forget the details but two platforms and some connections are supposed to be going in next year, along with raising the very low existing platforms.  It's having to be woven around other bits of Trans-Pennine Route Upgrade to avoid bringing the whole of the northwest to a grinding halt with too many bits of re-modelling getting in each other's way at the same time. 

[GordonC]

That makes more sense that the 4 platforms at the time were for the lines towards Salford Crescent and only 2 platforms were needed at the time. I remember passing through there years ago and seeing the disused platforms, but last time I passed it looked like the whole platforms were removed and had thought from where the tracks go now that they would have served the Eccles direction.

 

I would have thought it would have been a useful calling point for stoppers towards Eccles in much the same way as Oxford Road/Piccadilly gives useful options for getting off on the other line

 

Looks like there are 2 separate projects at the station, one going ahead in the New Year to upgrade the existing platforms, but work to reinstate the old platforms is postponed.

 

https://www.placenorthwest.co.uk/salford-central-expansion-hits-buffers/

 

Edited December 16, 2022 by GordonC

[APOLLO]

I don't think the LNW lines ever had platforms at Salford. The four platforms were 100% L&Y.

 

Back in the early 70's I attended Stretford Tech from Wigan by train. The journey home was always interesting, an EMU from Stretford to Deansgate, and a walk down to Salford (only one station then). My train was the 17-05 (Ex Victoria) express to Wigan and Southport, a 6 car DMU, over on the other westbound platform at the same time (if we were lucky) left the loco hauled Blackpool express, usually hauled by a Big D (class 40). A race often ensued to the junction (where Salford Crescent is now) where we went separate ways,  exciting at times as we ran alongside the thundering, accelerating Big D. The Blackpool train went via Bolton

 

A regular passenger we recognized on the Blackpool train was Ena Sharples of Coronation St Fame who lived in Blackpool. The ITV studios being close to Salford  station.

 

Our Southport train was almost like the old club trains, several groups playing cards etc. Woe betide any who interrupted them !!!

 

Sadly on the Wigan line the once 4 tracks had been reduced to 2 a few years before. Now THAT was a high speed commuter line in its L&Y days !!

 

Brit15

Edited December 16, 2022 by APOLLO

[ColinK]

Salford as it called in my youth, was a really tatty run down station I never used, despite it probably being a decent location for watching trains and photography.

 

More recently I was there many times when lines were closed for the work on Farnworth tunnel and electrification to Preston as it was a station served by rail replacement coaches, by then the station entrance and low level concourse had all been significantly improved.  Still a bit seedy though.

[Wheatley]

1 hour ago, GordonC said:

Looks like there are 2 separate projects at the station, one going ahead in the New Year to upgrade the existing platforms, but work to reinstate the old platforms is postponed.

 

https://www.placenorthwest.co.uk/salford-central-expansion-hits-buffers/

 

Thanks. That's a blow, I'll ask the Transformation mob what's going on when I'm back at work next week. In the meantime I'll have to change my stock reply for aggreived passengers who weren't expecting to need a rope and crampons to get off. 

 

22 minutes ago, ColinK said:

Salford as it called in my youth ...

It still is on a couple of industry databases, which causes no end of confusion, especially given the tendency to abbreviate things in emails. 

 

"Salford"

"Which?"

"Salford C"

"Not helping"

 

Even less helpful is the fact that the 'correct' abbreviations are SFD and SLD which does nothing to reduce ambiguity. 

 

[Reorte]

13 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Clifton is the other abandoned station on the Bolton line, but since 2013 it feels like its the Bolton line itself they are trying to run down… prior to that it was the Walken line that was the withered arm.

I wouldn't have thought it would've got electrified if the plan was to run it down.

[Edwin_m]

7 minutes ago, Reorte said:

I wouldn't have thought it would've got electrified if the plan was to run it down.

The Bolton line carries the frequent service of longer-distance trains.  It was never four-tracked (except for short sections) as the L&Y built a connection off the four-track Walkden line to carry its fast trains towards Preston instead.  So each stopping train takes up scarce capacity, and of the local stations Clifton is particularly poorly sited.  So it's not really surprising that stopping trains are tolerated rather than encouraged, and I would guess most locals use the bus rather than the train.  

[adb968008]

39 minutes ago, Reorte said:

I wouldn't have thought it would've got electrified if the plan was to run it down.

Neither would I, but its service post electrification has well shrunk.

The touted VT  extended service to Bolton from London (any why the parcels platform was reopened) quietly disappeared to.

Only half the TPE  stop there now, the rest express straight through.

 

And Blackpool semi-fasts have become all shacks stoppers.

 

[woodenhead]

10 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Neither would I, but its service post electrification has well shrunk.

The touted VT  extended service to Bolton from London (any why the parcels platform was reopened) quietly disappeared to.

Only half the TPE  stop there now, the rest express straight through.

 

And Blackpool semi-fasts have become all shacks stoppers.

 

As VT got replaced by Avanti it's no surprise - they had their own plans for West Coast.

 

With regards TPE I think that was always the plan with some trains via Wigan using the Earlestown link with Chat Moss and others going via Bolton.

[LMS2968]

A couple of early maps, one dated 1846 and the other 1848-50. New Bailey prison is still there pre-dating the L&YR goods yard which would occupy both sides of the L&MR viaduct from Ordsall Lane. In both cases the L&YR terminates at Salford and only the LNWR goes on to Victoria, but without platforms at Salford.

Edited December 16, 2022 by LMS2968

[phil-b259]

3 hours ago, Reorte said:

I wouldn't have thought it would've got electrified if the plan was to run it down.

Electrification was all about the likes of Bolton, Chorley and longer distance services which use the line  - it had nothing to do with any desire to improve the service to poorly sited intermediate stations between Manchester and Bolton.

 

That the after effects of  pandemic has seen services axed at the behest of the DfT does nothing to suggest a policy of 'running it down' any more than cuts elsewhere across the country do.

[adb968008]

This picture probably sums it up…

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salford_Central_railway_station#/media/File:Salford_2_railway_station_geograph-2161871.jpg

 

4 platforms on the lyr side for northern commuters

4 through “fast” lines for Western services (and Northern services to by pass the platforms).

 

There does look space for a platform 5 there ( and I recalled that from when I was younger, I think a retaining wall was built to fence off the LNW lines from view).

my guess would be that as Exchange (The LNWRs terminus) was literally around the corner, (0.25 mile walk in about 5 mins)  that a salford station wasnt needed, where as Victoria was 0.5mile maybe was worthwhile.

 

one little tidbit… Windsor link, named after Windsor bridge, used to contain sidings, but it also had an underground tunnel to salford docks as a branch line.

Edited December 16, 2022 by adb968008

[woodenhead]

3 hours ago, adb968008 said:

one little tidbit… Windsor link, named after Windsor bridge, used to contain sidings, but it also had an underground tunnel to salford docks as a branch line.

It's still there but buried at both ends - it was briefly visible during the Windsor Link work, there was a photograph somewhere of it.  The other end was briefly uncovered during road works to widen Trafford Road and then infilled where the road ran.

 

This my best guess to the route as it lacks buildings, although one does now appear to have encroached on the space.

 

It surfaced where the white building is at the top of the image below, but you can still where the main tunnel ran alongside West Egerton Street, you can see the retaining wall next to the scrapyard.

 

Edited December 16, 2022 by woodenhead

[adb968008]

3 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

Electrification was all about the likes of Bolton, Chorley and longer distance services which use the line  - it had nothing to do with any desire to improve the service to poorly sited intermediate stations between Manchester and Bolton.

 

That the after effects of  pandemic has seen services axed at the behest of the DfT does nothing to suggest a policy of 'running it down' any more than cuts elsewhere across the country do.

TPE services were cut back, and Blackpools rundown to all shacks years before Covid.

 

its been so long people have forgotten.

 

firstly why Bolton, Salford was depopulated in the 1960’s with many thousands moving to Boltons grassy green pastures, and then reverse commuted back to Salford and Manchester. 

 

for example 60 mins between the first and last c0800-c0900, ive weighted towards the max possible number of services in a 60 minute range starting with the first train in a window from 07.50 to 0905

1966 it was 11 up / 6 down

 

xPreston 0845*/0854/

xWigan 0755/ 0848 /0900

xBlackburn 0820 / 0835”  / 

x Vic 0833/0843/0859

x Bolton to Rochdale 0815/0850

x Rochdale to Bolton 0850

 

“ ex-Accrington

* ex-blackpool south

 

1975 it was 7 up / 7 down

 

xPreston 0828/0846/0858

xWigan 0806*

xBlackburn 0758 /0820/0840/

x Vic 0801 /0811/0821/0826/0831/0832/0853

x Bolton 0829 /0847

 

* ex-Liverpool

(not included is the 0748 Belfast Boat Express)

 

1987 it was 10 up, 8 down

 

x Blackburn 0809/0839 (2 car)

x Preston 0820/0849/0903 (6 car)

Starting Bolton 0809/0842 (2 car)

x Wigan line 0804/0832/0854 (2 car)

net capacity 32 vehicles

 

x man vic 0809 /0822 / 0826 / 0827/ 0840 / 0843/ 0848/ 0903

 

 

1998 Bolton had 9 an hour each way to Manchester.

compromising:

4 express via Manchester V 0801/0812/0827/0848/ (2 car)

1 all shacks via Manchester V 0815 (2 car) 

4 Express via Piccadilly 0805/0822/0835/0853 (4 car) 

net capacity 28 coaches

 

in reverse 

x man piccadilly  0810 / 0831 / 0841 / 0851 

x man vic 0817 /0826 / 0834 / 0838 / 0903

 

 

20th December 2022 its planned 7 UP and 7 down

 

x Blackburn 0816/0849 (2 car) 

x Preston  0822/0836/0854. (4 car) 

x Wigan line 0826/0858 (4 car)

net capacity 26 vehicles

 

x man piccadilly  0804/0822/0848*/0853

x man vic 0808 /0832/0835/

non stop through are 0807  UP and 0838 Down TPE services

 

Back then services were Blackburn, Kirkby, Southport and Blackpool

later Blackpool, Southport, Clitheroe and Barrow

Journey time from Bolton to Preston to Blackpool North

1966 0900 arrive 0940 arrive 1017* (40 and 77 minutes)

1975 0911 arrive 0943 arrive 1018 (32 and 67 minutes)

1987 0849 arrive 0915 arrive 0943 (26 and 54 minutes)

1998 0851 arrive 0924 arrive 0950 (33 and 59 minutes)

2022 0853 arrive 0924 arrive 0953 (31 and 60 minutes) now all shacks.

 

*Blackpool South

 

Journey time from Bolton to Salford Crescent to Manchester Piccadilly 

1966 0820 arrive 0840 (Salford) arrive Victoria 0843 (20 and 23 minutes)  No idea how it was done in 1966.

1975 0828 arrive 0845(Salford) arrive Victoria 0848 (17 and 20 minutes + Centreline number 4 bus, taking 7 minutes). 
1987 0820 arrive 0837(Salford) arrive Victoria 0841 (17 and 21 minutes + Centreline number 4 bus, taking 7 minutes). 

1998 0822 arrive 0835 arrive 0845 (13 and 23 minutes)

2022 0822 arrive 0834 arrive 0845 (13 and 23 minutes)

 

Journey time from Bolton to Salford Crescent to Manchester Victoria

1966 0820 arrive 0840 (Salford) arrive 0843 (20 and 23 minutes) 

1975 0828 arrive 0845 (Salford) arrive  0848 (17 and 20 mins)
1987 0820 arrive 0837 (Salford) arrive 0845 (17 and 25 minutes) 

1998 0827 arrive 0839 arrive 0848 (12 and 21 minutes) 

2022 0826 arrive 0847 arrive 0850 ( 21 and 24 minutes ) now all shacks.

 

 

As you see Bolton has got no benefit of electrification to journey times, it has a net reduction of 6 passenger vehicles, reduction of  6 services (3 each way) and 0 gain in time due to services becoming all shacks. It has the added loss of seating as the services are now starting further out resulting in overcrowding, and the Bolton starting “reliefs” are gone.

The loss is Kirkby services and TPE non-stopping.

 

All that amongst rising passenger numbers up until Covid.

Electrification was supposed to bring hourly Scottish and bi-hourly Londons (Bolton allegedly being the No1 forward destination from Manchester piccadilly on London services)…. And of course those Stockport connecting services have gone too.

 

What we have in 2022 is a return to1975.. and thats before May 2023 cutbacks.

 

 

 

Edited December 16, 2022 by adb968008

[APOLLO]

RCH map of the area, clearly shows the dock branch mentioned.

 

 

Looking towards the docks

 

 

There is a very interesting book "Salford in the days of steam" by Paul Shackcloth

 

 

Brit15

[woodenhead]

33 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

Looking towards the docks

 

 

 

Brit15

IIRC this was the point the branch passed under Liverpool St, the double track was on the incline to the docks tunnel, the empty portal led to what is now a scrapyard that was sited by the incline.

[adb968008]

37 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

RCH map of the area, clearly shows the dock branch mentioned.

 

 

Looking towards the docks

 

 

There is a very interesting book "Salford in the days of steam" by Paul Shackcloth

 

 

Brit15

Seconded, there is also an equivalent book about Manchester and book about Bolton enginemen I would reccomend.

[woodenhead]

Here's a map from NLS showing the tunnel entrance as above - the third track is there but whatever it served is not showing on the map so must have gone very early.  But lots of industry and sidings around there.