Hornby 2023 - Bluetooth decoders and control system

[WIMorrison]

4 minutes ago, Pmorgancym said:

We've seen large numbers of chips returned

 

a) How many decoders have been sold? - answer, only Hornby knows

b) how many decoders have been returned? - answer, only Hornby knows

 

10 decoders from a sales total of 10,000 is insignificant, 10 decoders from a sales total of 1000 is not large, 10 decoders returned from a sales total of 100 is more significant, and how many of the 10 failures are due to user error.

 

 

[Pmorgancym]

28 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

 

a) How many decoders have been sold? - answer, only Hornby knows

b) how many decoders have been returned? - answer, only Hornby knows

 

10 decoders from a sales total of 10,000 is insignificant, 10 decoders from a sales total of 1000 is not large, 10 decoders returned from a sales total of 100 is more significant, and how many of the 10 failures are due to user error.

 

 

I'm unfairly quoted here, that's exactly what I'm saying...We don't know, a statement that 'we're selling large numbers of fail chios because of dc running' or 'In a small number of cases we're seeing failures' would be helpful.  

 

'We've seen large numbers of chips returned.  Is it an non issue that failures on DC are in the same ball park as failures on DCC?.'

[Ron Ron Ron]

3 minutes ago, Pmorgancym said:

I'm unfairly quoted here, ......

 

You made a categorical statement, without having any information to base it on.

 

57 minutes ago, Pmorgancym said:

......We've seen large numbers of chips returned. ........

 

 

 

.

 

[Pmorgancym]

2 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

You made a categorical statement, without having any information to base it on.

 

 

 

 

.

 

It's not what I meant.  It was more an example of a clarifying g statement I'd expect..

[Porfuera]

1 hour ago, Pmorgancym said:

Even '...we are investigating reports of potential issues...'  that's not hard

 

But if they make that sort of statement then it will hit sales both now and into the future and I imagine they are far, far more interested in selling these chips to 'normal' DCC users than they are to the much lower numbers of people who want to run chipped locos on DC. Running chipped locos with BLE and DC was just a bonus which possibly has not worked out.

 

It is easy for people to sit around and accuse Hornby of doing nothing or to say that they should test it on a few DC controllers and give us a list now but when you are running a business and testing things, you have investigate and then come up with a reproducible test plan and define the scope of the testing and many other things that in itself can take weeks before the testing even starts. Even when you have a large, dedicated test team that is used to doing these things, which Hornby probably don't have.

 

Making a quick one-off statement isn't going to happen until they have a handle on whether or not anything is actually going wrong and if it is then what is the extent of it. This also takes time.

 

And none of us here know any of the real facts or numbers or what they are doing and I think they should be given time to sort things out rather than jumping to unsubstantiated conclusions.

 

Edited April 24, 2023 by Porfuera

[Ron Ron Ron]

19 minutes ago, Porfuera said:

 

.......Running chipped locos with BLE and DC was just a bonus which possibly has not worked out.

 

 

 

Now you're getting muddled up too !

You are conflating using a DC power source for BLE operation, with using a DC analogue train controller to provide that source (as opposed to a DC PSU).

 

BLE works perfectly well with an appropriate DC power source applied to the tracks.

The issue is with using some/many types of DC analogue train controllers for BLE operation.

 

Note: non of that should be described as "running on DC".

 

.

Edited April 24, 2023 by Ron Ron Ron

[Porfuera]

34 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

Now you're getting muddled up too !

You are conflating using a DC power source for BLE operation, with using a DC analogue controller to provide that source (as opposed to a DC PSU).

 

Sorry - possibly slightly loose phrasing... I did mean using  DC power source for BLE control rather than DC analogue. I don't think anyone here is really discussing and complaining about DC analogue use even though that is part of tri-mode.

 

Anyway, with DC analogue there is no BLE - you use the controller to control the speed and there are no sound, lights or other functions. So surely it was reasonably clear?

 

34 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

BLE works perfectly well with an appropriate DC power source applied to the tracks..

 

The point is that people don't know what is a suitable DC controller as Hornby haven't defined any and chips (appear to be) failing as a result.

 

But my point was also that none of us know any real facts and Hornby are not going to make a statement until they know what is going on otherwise it will hit sales. All we currently have is froth and making wild, unsubstantiated claims and statements doesn't help anyone.

Edited April 24, 2023 by Porfuera

[Ron Ron Ron]

3 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

BLE works perfectly well with an appropriate DC power source applied to the tracks.

 

2 hours ago, Porfuera said:

The point is that people don't know what is a suitable DC controller as Hornby haven't defined any and chips (appear to be) failing as a result.…….

Note, I didn’t say “ controller”.

I said “DC power source”.

 

I understand what you are trying to say, but you need to be specific.

Hornby have stated which DC power supplies they recommend and have cautioned about using unsuitable alternatives…. i.e. the ball is in the user’s court if they buy a 3rd party equivalent…….even though there are perfectly safe alternatives available.

When it comes to using a DC train controller, as a substitute for a regulated DC power supply, then this is where they’ve fallen down, by not making it totally clear that only suitable “controllers” should be used in lieu of a proper DC power supply.

 

 

.

[Porfuera]

3 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

Note, I didn’t say “ controller”.

I said “DC power source”.

 

I understand what you are trying to say, but you need to be specific.

Hornby have stated which DC power supplies they recommend and have cautioned about using unsuitable alternatives…. i.e. the ball is in the user’s court if they buy a 3rd party equivalent…….even though there are perfectly safe alternatives available.

When it comes to using a DC train controller, as a substitute for a regulated DC power supply, then this is where they’ve fallen down, by not making it totally clear that only suitable “controllers” should be used in lieu of a proper DC power supply.

 

I am being specific - I am not talking about DC PSUs, I'm talking about variable DC analogue controllers because (as I understand it)  this is what a few people on here are complaining about.

 

They don't want to buy a PSU (either DCC or DC) and have to wire it in to their layout; they want to use their existing DC analogue controller turned up to max to run their HM7000 chipped loco and control it with BLE. Is that specific enough for you?

 

I am sure I remember the HM7000 Project Manager (or Product Manager - the guy with the glasses and the beard) in the introductory video saying that you could use a variable DC controller to do this. Also I think SK said it as well but there was a bit of rolling back and saying that the sound might not work with 1amp controllers.

 

A few people are saying that this was promised but now Hornby are going back on this now that chips appear to be failing, especially with older controllers and/or PWM, which wasn't mentioned at that time.

 

However we have few, if any, facts. Hornby are the only ones that know and they are not saying anything, presumably because they are investigating and don't was to go off half-cocked.

[Merlin242]

In amongst all this froth I have installed my first 6 TXS decoders in a variety of models and the only issues I had were my learning my way round the app.

I had an interesting time today banking trains up the gradient at Hincaster with a Clan on the front and a standard 4MT at the back. This worked really well. Both locos now have modified chuff rates . At first I ran the Clan as it was with the Brittania sound file and the discrepancy of the Clan missing half the exhaust beats with the 4MT which is pretty good was really stark. But with both modified its great to watch the slower exhaust beat as the Clan goes past first then with the faster chuff of the banker at the back. The fine control available on the app means that you can in fact adjust how much weight each loco is taking. I don't think I could have done that with a my normal dcc controller.

My long planned next phase to add Grayrigg has been given a big push

[Bigskybirds]

To add my experience,  6 x 21pin TXS decoders installed in a mix of British and European models. All work fine with no issues. 

 

Changed the speed curve to alter the chuff rates.

 

2 more ordered today, Thanks Hornby

Edited April 24, 2023 by Bigskybirds

[D3489gibson]

26 minutes ago, Bigskybirds said:

To add my experience,  6 x 21pin TXS decoders installed in a mix of British and European models. All work fine with no issues. 

 

Changed the speed curve to alter to chuff rates.

 

2 more ordered today, Thanks Hornby

 

Good to see they're proving popular! I must ask though... what sounds have you used for your European models??

 

Nathan...

[Bigskybirds]

9 minutes ago, D3489gibson said:

 

Good to see they're proving popular! I must ask though... what sounds have you used for your European models??

 

Nathan...

Hi Nathan, I have only used the current Steam profiles and the generic sound. Hopefully European sounds profiles will be added in the future, until then I am happy with what I have installed.

 

Kevin.

[Pmorgancym]

4 hours ago, Porfuera said:

 

 

 

However we have few, if any, facts. Hornby are the only ones that know and they are not saying anything, presumably because they are investigating and don't was to go off half-cocked.

What wrong with a statement along the lines of

 

Aware of reports of chip failures whilst using DC bmcontrillers as a power source for Bluetooth operation.  We are investigating these.  We ask that people do not use this .ethos of operation u til further notice.

 

Going to cut down on the warranty replacements

[WIMorrison]

Hornby is a publicly quoted company (Hornby PLC) and they will never make any statements that may impact the share price and any official suggestion of an issue with a new product would affect the share price.

 

 

[Pteremy]

6 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

Hornby is a publicly quoted company (Hornby PLC) and they will never make any statements that may impact the share price and any official suggestion of an issue with a new product would affect the share price.

 

 

 

Except that in the age of social media there is an element of double jeopardy - allowing completely inaccurate claims to take root may deter those who face no risks at all, impacting sales and reputation. The fog of war. Sometimes it is better to suck it up, apologise/clarify, and take back control of the position.

[Pmorgancym]

It's just good customer service, it's the moral thing to do, if this mode of operation is only of mine of interest it won't affect sales.

[Porfuera]

27 minutes ago, Pmorgancym said:

It's just good customer service, it's the moral thing to do, if this mode of operation is only of mine of interest it won't affect sales.

 

But making any kind of statement saying that they've had a problem could affect sales across the board - both now and in the future - as I said previously.

 

Plus they are probably investigating and will probably make some sort of statement when they have the facts - as I said previously.

 

That is assuming that there is any problem at all - which nobody knows for sure because nobody on here knows the facts.

 

Your continual repetition of "Why don't they make a statement along the lines of..." isn't going to make it happen any faster.

Edited April 24, 2023 by Porfuera

[Porfuera]

1 hour ago, Pmorgancym said:

What wrong with a statement along the lines of

 

Aware of reports of chip failures whilst using DC bmcontrillers as a power source for Bluetooth operation.  We are investigating these.  We ask that people do not use this .ethos of operation u til further notice.

 

Going to cut down on the warranty replacements

 

And why are you asking us? Have  you even bothered to contact Hornby?

 

Here are some contact numbers:

 

Customer Services:

We operate a telephone Service open on +44 (0)1843 233502:

Monday – Wednesday: 9am - 5pm

Thursday – Friday: 9am – 3pm

We will also be closed on December 27, 28 and January 3.

 

Technical Services:

We operate a telephone Service open on +44 (0)1843 233512:

Monday - Friday 9am – 3pm

 

And there is also: simon.kohler@Hornby.com - apparently he is very good at answering emails.

 

Why don't you do that and let us know what they say?

[RAF96]

See here https://support.Hornby.com/hc/en-gb/articles/8564947931548-HM7000-HM-DCC-Compatibility

Also linked to from the HM DCC (7000) forum with an open post for any associated queries.

[meatloaf]

4 hours ago, RAF96 said:

See here https://support.Hornby.com/hc/en-gb/articles/8564947931548-HM7000-HM-DCC-Compatibility

Also linked to from the HM DCC (7000) forum with an open post for any associated queries.

Not compatible with Samsung Galaxy S20 and S21? 

 

What an absolute joke 🤮

[spamcan61]

32 minutes ago, meatloaf said:

Not compatible with Samsung Galaxy S20 and S21? 

 

What an absolute joke 🤮

I'm not quite sure what the purpose of that spreadsheet is at this point in time, as it implies nothing running Android works; it just seems to be a work in progress which adds to the confusion.

 

Personally I'll be installing this on an old phone anyway as we don't know the impact on the 30 minute or whatever download of incoming calls / emails etc. I'm sure I'm not the only person here with a selection of functional old(er) phones in a drawer 

Edited April 25, 2023 by spamcan61

[Johan DC]

2 hours ago, meatloaf said:

Not compatible with Samsung Galaxy S20 and S21? 

 

What an absolute joke 🤮

Why? They're working on a fix, and the Android version is not even out. 

 

[meatloaf]

42 minutes ago, Johan DC said:

Why? They're working on a fix, and the Android version is not even out. 

 

Well id say Samsung are probably the biggest selling android brand.

 

As you say the app isnt out yet so i really dont know why they have put that list up yet.

[Jenny Emily]

I’ve tested the next18 HM7000 decoders in every type of next18 equipped loco I could find to see which it actually fits in. 
 

Surprisingly it fitted in the smallest loco without modification. I produced a video of my test fitting results: