Suggestions for a rake of coaches

[Steam Revival]

Good afternoon, 

 

This is my first real post, so please be gentle with me.

 

I am looking for suggestions as to a suitable rake of coaches (4 or 5 units) for a Postwar ‘GWR’ lettered Manor class loco please?

 

This is probably a dumb question, but I have been driving myself crazy trying to find out what this class of engine would have hauled in the Green GWR livery.

 

Thanks for any help you can offer

 

ATB

Andy

[gwrrob]

The Hornby bow-ended corridor Collett coaches in shirtbutton livery would be a good start Andy. They do five different types.

[The Fatadder]

There is not a huge amount available straight from the box to a decent standard.   
 

The Hornby Hawksworth Third, Brake Third and Composite, were all in service in the late 40s (only just in the case of the latter) but would be very unlikely to be found on a 4 coach local set (unless of course your layout is set near Swindon in which case you can justify pretty much anything on a shakedown run.)

 

The Hornby Collett bow end coaches Rob mentions are the other excellent model that’s available, although Hornby still haven’t released them in a post war livery.  It’s possible to rebrand, else plenty were still in pre war branding.  
 

Dapol have announced a steel sided corridor toplight (but that is ages away given they have yet to release the non corridor version).

 

 

then you have the older models, Hornby have the Centenary brake third and composite.  All be it that the body is not quite right for the late 30s onward missing the window frames.   I have photos of a Centenary brake composite (not available RTR) in a 4 coach Exeter - Plymouth in 1947.

There is also the clerestory in the range, all be it a very old basic model.  For the 40s at least the lack of moulded panels is less of an issue given they were often repaired flush.

 

finally there is the Bachmann/Mainline sunshine stock brake compo and third.  Again it’s an older tooling and too short by 2mm or so.  Go for the older Mainline releases as for some reason Bachmann retooled to screw up the window height.

 

 

The key to a convincing GWR coach set is to ensure variation in coaches as often no two were the same.  For the Plymouth division at least, a 4 coach set (M Set) would be formed Brake third, third, composite, brake third.

 

On my layout this comprises a brass concertina brake third, a brass sunshine composite, a Mainline sunshine stock all third and a Hornby bow end brake third.  All of which are different lengths (70ft, 60ft, 60.5ft but should be 61ft and 57ft.)  This year I really need to get on and rebuild the all third with one that’s the right length!

[Steam Revival]

Good morning gwrrob and The Fatadder,

 

Many thanks for the information, really appreciated.

 

I feel myself being drawn ever more into this hobby!

 

Stay safe

 

Andy

[Forward!]

Do you have a geographical region in mind? Manors were a small class (only 20 pre-war) built for a specific purpose of achieving the lighter 'blue' route availability. They tended therefore to congregate on a small number of workings.

[TheSignalEngineer]

On 06/01/2023 at 16:36, The Fatadder said:

The key to a convincing GWR coach set is to ensure variation in coaches as often no two were the same.

I thought that it was a GWR/BR(W) rule that except for named expresses and B sets no train should have coaches of the same type coupled together if they had been in service more than one month. 🤔

[M.I.B]

Mix and match of types is the way ahead post WW2.  In very broad brush terms the following liveries of passenger coaching stock would have been seen:

 

Dull brown - all over matt - probably on clerestories.  Hornby "long" clerestories carry no moulding - panels are depicted by transfers, so these are ideal for a repaint into this livery - as previously mentioned, after so many repairs, the clerestories carried smooth panels towards the end of their days..

Austerity Brown - an odd colour used for a few years in WW2 - very much a red/brown  with an orange centre stripe.

"Chocolate and cream" basically glossy brown under the window region and window region in a cream colour - depending on the type of coach and livery of the period depends where the colour bands stop and start, and where any fine coach lining goes.

"Lake"   There were a very small number of very very old clerestories still in the plum livery of the 20s - dug out from the depths of Swindon carriage sidings when demand went sky-high.  Not for regular work - things like a football special on a summer sturday when there were already extra trains on to cover holiday "change-over" day.

 

As for "consists" ( trains) you will see that after WW2:

 

1.  The finest named expresses had most of the coaches of the same type ( probably) but also the odd extra oddity added - known as a "strengthener"

2.  The rest of passenger trains always had a mix of different coaches in different liveries.

3.   There was a wide variety of loco liveries too - lined green, unlined green (even one King was unlined for a while), black express locos (!!) and even black locos with green tenders.

 

You have picked the period where variety is definitely the keyword for stock.

 

If you want "matching" and everything in the corporate colours - pre war "shirtbutton" era where the GWR logo looks like an art deco shirt-button.

[Hal Nail]

Whilst there was variety, by post war even the Colletts were 10 years old so within the mix there would usually be more of the more recent types. Once you get to recognise the different "families", glancing at some photos will give an idea of the balance.

 

Given what is available r-t-r, personally I'd be looking to start with 2 Hornby bow enders and a sunshine as the core of the train in chocolate and cream. I'd probably get one brake 3rd, an all 3rd and a composite. Then I'd look to add variety depending what suitable came up 2nd hand or I had a go at converting/a kit or wait for Dapol.

 

Gives a reasonable rake from the start and if you end up with a spare then can juggle for variety.

Edited January 9, 2023 by Hal Nail

[M.I.B]

On 06/01/2023 at 14:59, Steam Revival said:

....... find out what this class of engine would have hauled in the Green GWR livery.

 

 

As well as passenger traffic, Manors would have been used for fast van trains of medium length, parcels traffic (lots of "full brake" coaches and bogie SIPHONs) and mixed freight too.

 

They were designed to be lightweight version of their bigger cousins, for coping with certain parts of the GWR network ( dictated by things like hills, curves and workload).   So they tended to be found more around Wales, Hereford, Worcester etc.

 

Go to the site at http://www.greatwestern.org.uk/ and browse around - it's very addictive.  You will find when every engine was built, where it was based initially, many of the subsequent basings, major modifications, re-namings, and withdrawal from service (and place of cutting-up)

[Steam Revival]

Hi guys,

 

thank you for your help and recommendations all very interesting and informative.

 

This, my first layout for nearly half a century, will not be based on a specific location but I would anticipate that as time goes by, will change and evolve. 
 

For now, I hope to be able to give a glimpse into what life was like in a rural setting post war.

 

@M.I.B Thank you for the greatwestern org link - it certainly is addictive 

[The Johnster]

You are spoiled for choice in terms of RTR stock to run behind your Manor in the 1945-7 period, as has been pointed out.  The variety that was such a feature of this and the early BR period (no two coaches of the same style were ever to be coupled together, and if this was unavoidable they had to have different liveries) was a result of the train marshalling instructions, which simply stipulated what sort of accommodation was needed, for example Traffic would want a BT, T, C, F, T, T and BC for a working and the carriage shed would marshall whatever was available in that formation irrespective of style, livery, or period, and possibly add a strengthener of whatever was to hand if needed; this might then be taken off at the destination and find it's way back home by all sorts of devious means after being 'borrowed'!

 

Manors were designed for 'blue' routes, but were used on any routes that they were not too heavy for.  I'm more familiar with them in BR days, when they were associated with the Cambrian, but also worked west of Carmarthen and Reading-Redhill. 

[MJI]

I was examining a rake of carriages to model it and found.

 

70 foot long stock brake third

a BCK same type as SVR 6913

C54s

Various sunshine stock

 

Basically anything post grouping, corridor, and still in service, and not special vehicles.

 

BTW early 50s for this setup. Toplights seemed to disappear from main service after WW2, but you never know.

 

This search will be Comet GWR 4mm Coaches

 

https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/?s=&post_type=product&orderby=date-DESC&ixwps=1&ixwpst[product_cat][]=53&ixwpst[pa_1_scale][]=233&ixwpst[pa_2_railway_company][]=333&title=1&excerpt=1&content=1&categories=1&attributes=1&tags=1&sku=1&ixwpsf[taxonomy][product_cat][show]=set&ixwpsf[taxonomy][product_cat][multiple]=0&ixwpsf[taxonomy][product_cat][filter]=1&ixwpsf[taxonomy][pa_1_scale][show]=set&ixwpsf[taxonomy][pa_1_scale][multiple]=0&ixwpsf[taxonomy][pa_1_scale][filter]=1&ixwpsf[taxonomy][pa_2_railway_company][show]=set&ixwpsf[taxonomy][pa_2_railway_company][multiple]=0&ixwpsf[taxonomy][pa_2_railway_company][filter]=0&ixwpsf[taxonomy][pa_3_manufacturer][show]=set&ixwpsf[taxonomy][pa_3_manufacturer][multiple]=0&ixwpsf[taxonomy][pa_3_manufacturer][filter]=1

[The Johnster]

Fairly certain the 70' toplights were all gone by Nationalisation (more than happy to be proven wrong), but I'm pretty sure I've seen photos of 57' toplights in BR crimson/cream, and non-gangwayed in crimson.  The toplights tended to be plated in by that time so the only visual indicator over an early Collett coach from a distance was the flat ends and door ventilators above the droplights. 

 

Comet is your friend if you want variety over and above what is produced RTR (and as we've seen you can't have too much variety for any but the named expresses for 1950s WR modelling), catering vehlcles, the 'other' Centenaries, and non-gangwayed Colletts including flatenders.  The kits are not difficult, but do take time and care, and I would recommend strengthening some of the assemblies as they can be a little flimsy.  I'd also recommend RTR bogies or Stafford Road Works (on Shapeways) 3D prints, as I don't like Comets' whitemetal offerings.  The ones I made up for my E147 B set were wide enough to be visible from directly overhead the coaches; that can't be right...  The Stafford Road bogies take RTR wheelsets without brass bearings, run very smoothly, and have NEM pockets the correct height above rail level no connection happy customer.  Stafford do various Deans, fishbellies, Collett 7' and 9', but not Pressed Steel.

[Welchester]

Toplight brake in chocolate and cream in 1953 at Bristol TM (from The Titfield Thunderbolt).

[88D]

On 28/01/2023 at 17:26, The Johnster said:

Fairly certain the 70' toplights were all gone by Nationalisation (more than happy to be proven wrong), but I'm pretty sure I've seen photos of 57' toplights in BR crimson/cream, and non-gangwayed in crimson.  The toplights tended to be plated in by that time so the only visual indicator over an early Collett coach from a distance was the flat ends and door ventilators above the droplights. 

 

Comet is your friend if you want variety over and above what is produced RTR (and as we've seen you can't have too much variety for any but the named expresses for 1950s WR modelling), catering vehlcles, the 'other' Centenaries, and non-gangwayed Colletts including flatenders.  The kits are not difficult, but do take time and care, and I would recommend strengthening some of the assemblies as they can be a little flimsy.  I'd also recommend RTR bogies or Stafford Road Works (on Shapeways) 3D prints, as I don't like Comets' whitemetal offerings.  The ones I made up for my E147 B set were wide enough to be visible from directly overhead the coaches; that can't be right...  The Stafford Road bogies take RTR wheelsets without brass bearings, run very smoothly, and have NEM pockets the correct height above rail level no connection happy customer.  Stafford do various Deans, fishbellies, Collett 7' and 9', but not Pressed Steel.

As with you, Johnster, I prefer the Safford Rd bogies - but it pains me to pay the postage charge from Holland. I wish something could be done about it!