Why there are no longer any bargain fares (Radio 4 today)

[Andy Kirkham]

Tony Miles was interviewed about rail price rises on You and Yours today https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001gx5v  35' 50". He made a good point about how the current funding arrangements provide no incentives for the TOCs to offer bargain tickets to fill empty seats.

 

The Government currently  is fascinated and fixated on income rather than getting bums on seats as it were, so it now collects all the revenue from all the tickets sales and it pays the companies fixed fees for running the trains. They have no incentive to sell extra tickets because they get no more out of it. All the money goes straight to the government and it's locked into this Get As Much Money As You Can thing, so whilst it could have been worse .... but the incentive to get out there and travel is not there at the moment.

 

I fondly remember the early days of privatisation when GNER was offering fares that allowed amazingly cheap days out from Glasgow to York or Durham, and I could get a ticket on Virgin down to the Wigan show for some nearly negligable sum. Happy days!

[Wheatley]

Northern have a flash sale on at the moment, 5 million tickets between 50p and £1.50  between January and March.

[RichardT]

I’ve obviously imagined the return trip I booked for Darlington to Edinburgh on LNER for £57 for two of us then. And my £70 first class return to London ten days before Christmas.

 

The Radio 4 commentator doesn’t seem to understand that yield management is still in use, which means that bargain fares are still available, because that is how you actually maximise revenue, if that’s the objective.

 

But then, I’ve never heard any journalistic commentary on the current railway that sounds as though they had more than half an idea of what they were talking about

 

RichardT

Edited January 12, 2023 by RichardT
Adding a bit

[BachelorBoy]

8 hours ago, Dava said:

It’s not the People’s Railway anymore, we just pay for it.

 

Privatisation and the cackhanded attempts to shore it up have been the biggest, most costly screwup in UK railway history.

 

 

Nationalisation was disastrous. The Big Four were profitable just before the state took over. BR did make profits for a year or two after it was created. But then it was lose, lose, lose, with the Treasury picking up the bill for the People's Railway. 

 

BR built 2,500 steam locos (including 1000 to its standard designs) that were scrapped long before the ends of their working lives. What a waste of resources. The 1955 Modernisation Plan was botched. Etc, etc.

 

Here's an interesting graph of passenger numbers.

 

 

Edited January 12, 2023 by BachelorBoy
added graphic. added details of graphic

[black and decker boy]

7 hours ago, RichardT said:

I’ve obviously imagined the return trip I booked for Darlington to Edinburgh on LNER for £57 for two of us then. And my £70 first class return to London ten days before Christmas.

 

The Radio 4 commentator doesn’t seem to understand that yield management is still in use, which means that bargain fares are still available, because that is how you actually maximise revenue, if that’s the objective.

 

But then, I’ve never heard any journalistic commentary on the current railway that sounds as though they had more than half an idea of what they were talking about

 

RichardT

Tony is an enthusiast himself and is pretty good & knowledgeable.

 

the English TOCs under OLR control don’t have as much interference & straitjacket from DfT as the former TOCs do under their new, post-covid, contracts. The non English TOCs do what their devolved paymasters tell them rather than DfT.

 

That said, your perceived bargain fares are still £20 more than similar fares a few years ago on Virgin West Coast (Manchester to London 1st class being around £50 return).

 

Yield management still requires a base price to be inputted and a quota. What the TOCs gave done is increase the first and lower the second. We know from the franchise change, Avanti were under orders to do this to increase revenue by stealth.

[ikcdab]

I remember a few years ago that all the complaints were about the multiplicity of fares and how complex it was.  How in one carriage everyone might have paid a different fare.  It was then thought desirable to streamline this and reduce the number of fares and today's structure is the result.  It's a really good example of "be careful what you wish for".

[ikcdab]

7 hours ago, Dava said:

It’s not the People’s Railway anymore, we just pay for it.

 

Privatisation and the cackhanded attempts to shore it up have been the biggest, most costly screwup in UK railway history.

 

Id like to use my Senior Railcard a lot more. Backing RMT & ASLEF.

 

Dava

Today's Railways are not privatised.  Network rail is government owned. And the government now "owns" or closely controls most of the TOCs. I haven't checked which ones. The early days of privatisation were a great success with new trains and better services.  It's only now since the government is meddling that things have gone haywire.

[black and decker boy]

LNER, Northern, SouthEastern are all OLR controlled (so direct state control).

 

Network Rail is wholly state control.

 

English TOCs are now under management contracts / concessions with all expenditure requiring approval by DfT civil servants. Private Groups that ‘operate the trains’ earn fixed fees (as low as 1%) and do not take any profits / share. Industrial Disputes cannot be settled by the TOCs without DfT approval. DfT themselves cannot negotiate/ settle without No10 & Treasury approval. Hence current stalemate. No10 & DfT don’t want public to know / understand any of the above so keep the pretence that the whole thing is still privatised. Even the Unions now acknowledge the private TOCs are puppets and control tests with DfT & Government 

 

Welsh & Scottish TOCs are under their devolved state control.

 

The only truly privatised bits left are the FOCs (excl DRS) and the ROSCOs.

 

[MyRule1]

@BachelorBoythanks for a meaningless graphic so around 2019 nearly 2,000 something's happend. Presuming this is number of passengers, there are at least three major flaws in using this statistic.

 

It ignores freight which has everything to to with profit and loss and nothing to do with passengers.

 

Gross passenger numbers should be seen against the size of the population and to a lesser extent market share.

 

Since the 1970's the overall economic and social benefits have been built into calculations about railway economics.

 

As to cheap fares Greater Anglia ran their Hare Saver campaign before Christmas and the cost book in advance tickets seems to be at the same ratio as pre-covid. My trips from Essex to Norfolk have not gone up anymore in percentage terms than full fares. We also have new entrants such as Lumo.

 

You could also ask where cheap domestic Airfares have gone. I was looking at Stansted to Glasgow the other day, now no choice of airline and much higher prices in real terms..

[Andy Kirkham]

30 minutes ago, ikcdab said:

I remember a few years ago that all the complaints were about the multiplicity of fares and how complex it was.  How in one carriage everyone might have paid a different fare.  It was then thought desirable to streamline this and reduce the number of fares and today's structure is the result.  It's a really good example of "be careful what you wish for".

I've never had a problem with multiple fares; and  nobody seems bothered about  opaque and complex pricing of hotels and airlines.

[BachelorBoy]

37 minutes ago, ikcdab said:

I remember a few years ago that all the complaints were about the multiplicity of fares and how complex it was.  How in one carriage everyone might have paid a different fare.  

 

And yet people seem to accept that everyone on a passenger plane will probably have paid different prices.

 

[Andy Kirkham]

10 hours ago, Wheatley said:

Northern have a flash sale on at the moment, 5 million tickets between 50p and £1.50  between January and March.

I stand corrected, but in Bristol where I live I'm unaware of any cheap fares on GWR or Cross Country.

[Oldddudders]

7 hours ago, BachelorBoy said:

Nationalisation was disastrous. The Big Four were profitable just before the state took over.

Really? I was under the impression that following both World Wars, the nation's railways were in a disastrous state, having been flogged mercilessly to support the war effort. 

[C126]

Sorry to 'drift', but has @Dava 's contribution been removed, or disappeared owing to a fault?  I can see it only when quoted in replies.

[black and decker boy]

4 minutes ago, C126 said:

Sorry to 'drift', but has @Dava 's contribution been removed, or disappeared owing to a fault?  I can see it only when quoted in replies.

Hmmm, seems to have  gone yes.

[Oldddudders]

11 minutes ago, C126 said:

Sorry to 'drift', but has @Dava 's contribution been removed, or disappeared owing to a fault?  I can see it only when quoted in replies.

Inevitably, any discussion about railway ownership steps a bit close to politics at times. RMweb doesn't enjoy that. 

[62613]

9 hours ago, BachelorBoy said:

 

Nationalisation was disastrous. The Big Four were profitable just before the state took over. BR did make profits for a year or two after it was created. But then it was lose, lose, lose, with the Treasury picking up the bill for the People's Railway. 

 

BR built 2,500 steam locos (including 1000 to its standard designs) that were scrapped long before the ends of their working lives. What a waste of resources. The 1955 Modernisation Plan was botched. Etc, etc.

 

Here's an interesting graph of passenger numbers.

 

 

And yet , pre - WW2, one of the big four wanted to raise money to invest in electrification on some of its suburban lines, and on one of its major freight routes. They were so profitable that no - one would make the loans until the government of the time guaranteed them (if the company defaults on its repayments, we'll take over). During and after the 1929 crash, which hammered their freight revenue, the same company virtually ceased replacing old rolling stock with new. I don't know what returns shareholders in the big four companies were getting between the end of the war and nationalisation, but I bet it wasn't  much!

 

Have you noticed that passenger numbers had started increasing during the last few years of the nationalised railway? They fell in the late 1980s because there was a severe recession in the city at that time (fewer commuters into London)? A good example of there being more factors than who owns what being responsible for social and economic trends.

 

 

Edited January 12, 2023 by 62613
Additional information

[Mallard60022]

The thing I didn't hear was a challenge to the rather sad bloke saying that before Christmas he bought a car because the fare from Exeter to Liverpool was so extortionate @ over £600! He then mentioned Bristol to Liverpool and Brum to Pool. He was confused that those fares were seemingly less per mile than from Exeter!

What didn't happen was to give the Magazine chap the chance to refer that punter to a family railcard and how he could have gone to Exeter Station and spoken to a real person to calculate the best fares for him (with a Family card or similar and to adjust his travel times slightly and probably use Split Ticketing) and his wife and one child paying fares (two smaller kids not requiring a Ticket as well). These people don't have our knowledge and CBA to search as we might or someone with a bit of travel experience.

Magazine chap did just manage to say "Avoiding peak times.....", but then didn't have any chance to even say the fare could have been far less with advice due to time constraints. That sort of thing almost makes me reach for my Tunbridge Wells Pen. 

As for bargain fares, there are loads. Hull Trains always doing them as are LNER. Northern as mentioned above also. 

The one thing that was made clear was the fantastic value of Season Tickets.

I know things are tough and the ticketing system is seemingly too complex for the casual traveller, however we often have the small Town mentality as in my Town of those that think paying £1 to park in Town is absolutely intolerable! Some folk seemingly just aren't inquisitive or experienced enough to bother and Trains are a PITA etc.

Such a shame really.

As for nationalisation being a disaster. Come on! Before the 2nd War the wealthy were groomed by the BIg 4 and the plebs were catered for.  After the war the country was bankrupt, Road Transport was roaring ahead with Government investment in the 50s  and the Railway was a public subsidised service that enabled millions to get to and from work in an inexpensive way. BY the mid 60s the railway was no longer the choice of many to travel. 

Privatisation was good for Freight and  for a short time for new Trains. Then the chaos began.

Todays profit before people attitudes  makes me puke.

Phil

P

[APOLLO]

What's the use of a cheap ticket when there are fewer or no trains, cancelled daily (Northern Avanti & Trans Pennine up here in the NW are next to useless).

 

I'm afraid the Railways, NHS, Royal Mail (etc) will emerge from all this strike action as very different entities, slimmed down services and much more expensive for the customer.

 

Darker days ahead.

 

Brit15

[Mallard60022]

19 minutes ago, C126 said:

Sorry to 'drift', but has @Dava 's contribution been removed, or disappeared owing to a fault?  I can see it only when quoted in replies.

Naughty politics methinks? Mine will go too.

P 

[woodenhead]

40 minutes ago, Andy Kirkham said:

I stand corrected, but in Bristol where I live I'm unaware of any cheap fares on GWR or Cross Country.

Cross Country have not been cheap for a long time, I used to travel a lot on their trains to the South West and they always looked expensive even though I was not payingg.

 

Avanti are still doing good deals, I was going to book for the Glasgow show in Feb and at the beginning of January the return fair from Warrington to Glasgow using advance tickets was only £28 - a bargain.

 

Potentially another factor at the moment is the uncertainty of running trains due to the industrial action, the last thing the TOCs want to be doing is encouraging more people to travel when the services are so unreliable as it then costs them even more to service all the refunds that have to process, i.e. the cost of doing the refund, not the refund itself.  And there is the other element of wanting to demonstrate that the strikes are driving people away from trains, a good way to do this is to restrict the cheaper fares....

[Mike_Walker]

8 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

As for bargain fares, there are loads. Hull Trains always doing them as are LNER. Northern as mentioned above also. 

 

Hull Trains is an open access operator which is free to do want it wants and it succeeds or fails by its own actions - it gets no government support.  The same applies to Grand Central and Lumo.  As mentioned earlier in this thread, LNER and Northern (along with South Eastern) are effectively state owned as they are managed by the government's "operator of last resort".  Paradoxically, they are subject to less rigid control than the supposedly "privatised" TOCs and therefore have more freedom in such matters.  As others have said, the TOCs are now just operators who have to get even the smallest decision approved by the DfT and therefore there is no longer any real incentive for them to offer the range of fares they used to.

 

And don't forget, the government's declared aim is to return to a "simple" fare structure which, presumably, means a single fare offered for each journey irrespective of time or day.

[BachelorBoy]

1 hour ago, Mallard60022 said:

 

As for nationalisation being a disaster. Come on!

 

 

BR was initially profitable. But that changed after a few years of state management.

 

Nationalisation of the railways, the canals, buses, haulage, etc was supposed to create an integrated transport system. That never happened. The British Transport Commission was a failure.

 

The Big Four's plans for dieselisation and electrification were killed by Riddles. Riddles built one thousand steam locos that were scrapped long before the end of their working lives. A massive waste of public resources. 

 

1955 Modernisation Plan: BR squandered resources by commissioning loads of poor quality diesels. 

 

In 1968, the government wrote off £1.3bn of debt that BR had accumulated in its first twenty years. That's about £25 bn in today's money. BR's own accountant, Stewart Joy, estimated BR had absorbed about twice that amount of public cash as for a while, the Treasury simply wrote cheques to cover annual deficits.

 

APT.

 

Spending public money on patenting designs for flying saucers wasn't a great idea too.

 

Passenger numbers fell while the railways were nationalised, and only started to rise again (quite sharply) after privatisation. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Enterprisingwestern]

2 hours ago, woodenhead said:

Avanti are still doing good deals, I was going to book for the Glasgow show in Feb and at the beginning of January the return fair from Warrington to Glasgow using advance tickets was only £28 - a bargain.

 

My air fare from Alicante is 14.99 euros each way!

 

MIke.

[62613]

4 minutes ago, BachelorBoy said:

 

 

BR was initially profitable. But that changed after a few years of state management.

 

Nationalisation of the railways, the canals, buses, haulage, etc was supposed to create an integrated transport system. That never happened. The British Transport Commission was a failure.

 

The Big Four's plans for dieselisation and electrification were killed by Riddles. Riddles built one thousand steam locos that were scrapped long before the end of their working lives. A massive waste of public resources. 

 

1955 Modernisation Plan: BR squandered resources by commissioning loads of poor quality diesels. 

 

In 1968, the government wrote off £1.3bn of debt that BR had accumulated in its first twenty years. That's about £25 bn in today's money. BR's own accountant, Stewart Joy, estimated BR had absorbed about twice that amount of public cash as for a while, the Treasury simply wrote cheques to cover annual deficits.

 

APT.

 

Spending public money on patenting designs for flying saucers wasn't a great idea too.

 

Passenger numbers fell while the railways were nationalised, and only started to rise again (quite sharply) after privatisation. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No! Passenger numbers were rising from about 1992, as the UK came out of the big bang - induced recession, which started in 1989 (the recession even affected my place of work at the time, as work on most investment projects was deferred). You have to take other factors into account, such as increasing congestion on the roads, increasing motor fuel costs, and so on. On the subject of locomotive building policy, hidsight is a wonderful thing; given the financial position of the UK in 1948, the more pressing need to replace the housing stock and so on, and the investment required to switch to a different form of motive power, you'd have gone ahead? I submit that you could hardly blame BR for the failure of privately - built locomotives; they had to be given a chance!