Gluing ply sleepers

[MikeH_83]

Hi all,

 

Quick question really,  I am using plywood sleepers for my new layout.  Previously I used PVA to glue them down (the weatherproof stuff so that nothing loosened when ballasting) however this time I am wondering about using copydex to help reduce noise a tad.  Is there any adverse effects from using this type of glue for that? It won't discolour ballast or anything? (just checking before I go mad with it)

 

Thanks

Edited January 14, 2023 by MikeH_83

[ikcdab]

Ive used both. Copydex for plain track and pva for turnouts. In both cases i have plywood baseboard, then 3mm cork, then the templot template on thick paper then the ply sleepres glued to the template. I haven't noticed any difference whatsoever, apart from the horrible smell of copydex. I just find pva so much easier to work with. I have also used prittstick and that has been OK too. 

[MikeH_83]

Thanks very much! 

[Gordon A]

I have used Copydex which did not work for me. I prefer to use use super glue gel, then pva for gluing the ballast.

[Jol Wilkinson]

I use Copydex with ply sleepers onto 3mm closed cell foam and have had no problems.

[Grovenor]

I have always used PVA and glue the track and ballast together in one hit. Nowadays I use PVA from suppliers catering to childrens activities designed to wash out of clothes. It can be soaked and the track lifted if neccessary but it certainly doesn't loosen at the first whiff of wet, there would be no problem if ballasting in a second hit.

[Kylestrome]

10 hours ago, Grovenor said:

Nowadays I use PVA from suppliers catering to childrens activities designed to wash out of clothes.

 

I was glad that I used water soluble PVA when glueing down my ply sleepers as it made it very easy to make a couple of trackwork alterations weeks later. There was absolutely no problem with them lifting during ballasting.

 

David

 

Edited January 17, 2023 by Kylestrome

[Wheatley]

No issues with Copydex here, I don't even mind the smell (reminds me of junior school !). 

[MikeH_83]

Thanks all.  Good to know both types of glue work really well!

[nick_bastable]

Just be aware that copydex if you need to realign a sleeper or what ever  has a habit of peeling as a large skin

[hayfield]

On 14/01/2023 at 14:43, MikeH_83 said:

Hi all,

 

Quick question really,  I am using plywood sleepers for my new layout.  Previously I used PVA to glue them down (the weatherproof stuff so that nothing loosened when ballasting) however this time I am wondering about using copydex to help reduce noise a tad.  Is there any adverse effects from using this type of glue for that? It won't discolour ballast or anything? (just checking before I go mad with it)

 

Thanks

 

The main issue with PVA is that it locks everything up solid, if you are thinking of sound reduction do not use PVA

 

I have used latex/Copydex for sticking closed cell foam to base boards, my wife showed me that if you coat both surfaces and let dry, then use as an impact adhesive. A word of warning latex/Copydex strings when dry, if you wish to remove excess glue with a modelling knife cut through the laytex to cut it then you can safely remove unwanted glue. Works exactly the same with cork sheet/rolls

 

I have used Copydex neat when laying track to the closed cell foam.

To ballast dilute 50/50 with water and use a dropper as you would with PVA

 

Another good glue is the polymer type like No Nails, these also are elastic when dried

[Solo]

I'd echo the cautionary notes on Copydex above. One of the advantages of PVA is that you get a bit of working time for fine adjustments as it dries. With the latex-based Copydex, if you need to reposition anything after even a few minutes, you'll end up with a horrible stringy mess. I've seen myself having to lift entire track sections for this reason. There's no sound-deadening advantage with Copydex (at least not if you're ballasting), so I'd stick to a high-tack PVA – which will also be cheaper.

[Jol Wilkinson]

14 hours ago, Solo said:

I'd echo the cautionary notes on Copydex above. One of the advantages of PVA is that you get a bit of working time for fine adjustments as it dries. With the latex-based Copydex, if you need to reposition anything after even a few minutes, you'll end up with a horrible stringy mess. I've seen myself having to lift entire track sections for this reason. There's no sound-deadening advantage with Copydex (at least not if you're ballasting), so I'd stick to a high-tack PVA – which will also be cheaper.

Ply sleeper track laid with Copydex can be lifted or adjusted using white spirit to soften it. Care is needed but it is possible.

 

Regarding sound deadening. Run a piece of stock along a section of track glued down and along a section not yet glued and you will find a remarkable difference. Iain Rice showed a track building technique where the track was build on a paper template and the whole lot laid onto the foam. The template overlapped the underlay and was tapped to the baseboard at it's edge. I think that this would achieve the same level of low noise transmission, although ballasting with pva might soak through the paper and have the opposite effect.

 

With ply baseboard tops some noise with be from the ply "drumming". The cure for that is a layer of foam insulation glued on the underside, with holes cut out for point motors, wiring droppers, etc.

[hayfield]

17 hours ago, Solo said:

I'd echo the cautionary notes on Copydex above. One of the advantages of PVA is that you get a bit of working time for fine adjustments as it dries. With the latex-based Copydex, if you need to reposition anything after even a few minutes, you'll end up with a horrible stringy mess. I've seen myself having to lift entire track sections for this reason. There's no sound-deadening advantage with Copydex (at least not if you're ballasting), so I'd stick to a high-tack PVA – which will also be cheaper.

 

 

 

We all have preferences when building our layouts, the first thing to understand is that modern baseboard building techniques using ply makes wonderful sound boxes (amplifying speakers). A bit like going into an empty room where it echoes, some of us prefer to dampen the sound, so anything that reduces vibration is desirable. Likewise anything that locks everything up is undesirable

 

I do beg to differ at least from your claim about the sound deadening qualities of latex glues. Firstly if you are into sound deadening you must look into both baseboard design, materials used including the type of underlay. PVA glues lock up everything solid and can help amplify the noise made when a train moves, sadly PVA will penetrate some porous sound deadening materials. So we have to look for alternatives

 

The use of Latex glue differs in how you use it. You can use it as a contact adhesive, but you must let both surfaces dry out toughly, then lightly lay the track down, adjust it, then tap it down for a firm fix. Excess glue can be removed, but you must cut the dividing line with a sharp craft knife first to avoid pulling up the glue under the joint

 

The art of track laying is in both planning and preparation, get these right and you will not end up with a sticky mess whatever glue you use. A dry run first has got to make sense, gluing prior to  having a finalised position is unwise, but I do accept final adjustment is a must

 

The second method is to lay the glue as you would with PVA neat and you have plenty of time to adjust its position before it sets. If the track is lifted you will have a sticky mess, just as you would with PVA, both are water soluble so both can be cleaned easily, or with latex wait until its dried and pull off the dried rubbery material.

 

Latex dries in a flexible state unlike PVA which dries solid, you are correct in that latex on its own will not noticeably reduce sound, but when used in a well thought out way with other materials it can reduce unwanted sound, to a certain extent these methods can also be used with PVA and still be effective to a certain level, but it fails on the basis of setting rock solid.

 

Latex can be used for ballasting exactly the same as PVA, diluted 50/50 with water, but unlike PVA it retains some form of elasticity, PVA sets solid. As far as I am aware latex does not discolour crushed ballast as PVA does, plus ground cork is still available rather than stone ballast, which may also be better for sound reduction

 

Granted buying latex from well known brands is expensive as are all other glues including PVA.

 

PVA does have its uses. But glues have moved on and now I would use Polymer glue in preference. The last time I used PVA was on flooring to act as a key for other glues to grip

Edited November 1, 2023 by hayfield

[brossard]

Well, Copydex is unknown in Canada but I did use a Tacky Glue (Walmart crafts section) for sticking my foam trackbed (Woodland Scenics) to the boards and the track (Peco) to the foam.  It dries rubbery so between the foam and the glue there should be sound deadening.  I have no way to test other than gut feel.  I did use dilute PVA for the ballast but haven't noticed anything detrimental.  It has been down for several years now.

 

The club I belong to to, for the very large club layout, used a 3mm commercial foam similar to WS and Tacky Glue to fix it and the track.  All looks good so far.

 

John

 

Edit:  I should clarify that most of my turnouts have wooden timbers (Intentio).

Edited November 1, 2023 by brossard

[hayfield]

4 hours ago, brossard said:

Well, Copydex is unknown in Canada but I did use a Tacky Glue (Walmart crafts section) for sticking my foam trackbed (Woodland Scenics) to the boards and the track (Peco) to the foam.  It dries rubbery so between the foam and the glue there should be sound deadening.  I have no way to test other than gut feel.  I did use dilute PVA for the ballast but haven't noticed anything detrimental.  It has been down for several years now.

 

The club I belong to to, for the very large club layout, used a 3mm commercial foam similar to WS and Tacky Glue to fix it and the track.  All looks good so far.

 

John

 

Edit:  I should clarify that most of my turnouts have wooden timbers (Intentio).

 

Copydex is a brand name, its a latex glue

[brossard]

1 hour ago, hayfield said:

 

Copydex is a brand name, its a latex glue

 

This is the stuff I've been using:

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Aleenes-Premium-Original-Tacky-Craft/dp/B005Z463A2/ref=sr_1_5?keywords=tacky+glue&qid=1698866992&sr=8-5

 

May well be latex glue.  No appalling smell though.

 

John

[hayfield]

John

 

Its a PVA glue, nothing wrong with this providing it does what you require.

 

For me the fact that it dries solid would be detrimental for track laying as I use closed cell foam as a track bed, horses for courses.