16T MCV Wagons

[sulzer71]

Morning all

 

For an upcoming layout build I will require some 16t Bauxite MCV wagons , as far as I know there are no RTR versions currently , I have a couple of Parkside PC21 kits so I was wondering if these were a suitable base? I know there's variations in the side doors and I will need both types but I am only just learning when it comes to wagons so any input here will be greatly appreciated 

 

I will be modelling in EM so any advice on what wheelsets can be used would be helpful too , I'd also like to know if any upgrades can be made to the Parkside kit eg a brass underframe etc 

 

Tia

 

Dave 

[Fat Controller]

By 'MCV', do you mean the vac-fitted 1/108 mineral with 4-shoe brakes, or the with 8-shoes? 

The former can be built using the Dapol or Parkside kits, fitting vac cylinders (2?) and tie-bars between the W-irons

The latter involves using the 'Red Panda' underframe, with 4mm taken out of the wheelbase.

The wagon that Peco market as a 16t mineral is a relative rarity, being based on new bodies on a 17' 6" chassis.

If you wish to model the rebuilt body, but on the more common 16' 6" chassis, it would be worth seeking out the Cambrian C8 LMS 16t mineral.

[sulzer71]

36 minutes ago, Fat Controller said:

By 'MCV', do you mean the vac-fitted 1/108 mineral with 4-shoe brakes, or the with 8-shoes? 

The former can be built using the Dapol or Parkside kits, fitting vac cylinders (2?) and tie-bars between the W-irons

The latter involves using the 'Red Panda' underframe, with 4mm taken out of the wheelbase.

The wagon that Peco market as a 16t mineral is a relative rarity, being based on new bodies on a 17' 6" chassis.

If you wish to model the rebuilt body, but on the more common 16' 6" chassis, it would be worth seeking out the Cambrian C8 LMS 16t mineral.

This I am unsure of , I know very little about wagons unfortunately as I was only interested in locos , I'm looking to model ones that were seen on the Kyle Line in the 70s/80s , sometimes attached to the front/rear of passenger trains and sometimes in short rakes on their own or in mixed freights 

[Fat Controller]

Just now, sulzer71 said:

This I am unsure of , I know very little about wagons unfortunately as I was only interested in locos , I'm looking to model ones that were seen on the Kyle Line in the 70s/80s , sometimes attached to the front/rear of passenger trains and sometimes in short rakes on their own or in mixed freights 

They'd most likely to be a mixture of all the varieties; a quick look at 'Ernie's Railway Archive appears to confirm this. There are loads of views of individual wagons here:-

https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/mineralmortonmxv

https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brmineralclaspvb

https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/mineralmcv10ft

[The Johnster]

There was a Sectional Appendix instruction that authorised the coal wagon tail traffic on the Kyle line (and the Far North Line IIRC), as the wagons were vacuum fitted with screw couplings and hydraulic buffers, but not ‘XP’ rated for use as tail traffic on passenger trains.  ISTR that a batch of XP 10’ wheelbase wagons were built, but these were very rare; can’t remember ever encountering one in my entire railway career.  If you can get hold of the relevant Sectional Appendix you may glean some of the info you are after.  
 

Bachmann have produced the bauxite liveried vacuum fitted 9’ wheelbase D/108 (don’t confuse it with the unfitted bauxite Ministry of Supply version), which TTBOMK is the only accurate RTR model available; in Hornby and Dapol use a generic 10’ wheelbase and stretch the body to fit, as did Airfix, Lima, and Hornby Dublo/Wrenn. 

 

 
 

 

[Fat Controller]

2 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

There was a Sectional Appendix instruction that authorised the coal wagon tail traffic on the Kyle line (and the Far North Line IIRC), as the wagons were vacuum fitted with screw couplings and hydraulic buffers, but not ‘XP’ rated for use as tail traffic on passenger trains.  ISTR that a batch of XP 10’ wheelbase wagons were built, but these were very rare; can’t remember ever encountering one in my entire railway career.  If you can get hold of the relevant Sectional Appendix you may glean some of the info you are after.  
 

Bachmann have produced the bauxite liveried vacuum fitted 9’ wheelbase D/108 (don’t confuse it with the unfitted bauxite Ministry of Supply version), which TTBOMK is the only accurate RTR model available; in Hornby and Dapol use a generic 10’ wheelbase and stretch the body to fit, as did Airfix, Lima, and Hornby Dublo/Wrenn. 

 

 
 

 

There were 394 10' wb 16-tonners built on a mixture of former Palbricks, with several types of brake gear. Some even had roller bearings. I've seen no evidence allocating them to any particular flow; the only ones I saw were at Llanelli goods yard, carrying domestic coal. 

The Kyle line ran some odd formations, many in conjunction with the oil-platform yard at Stromeferry. I've seen photos of Bogie Bolsters and Presflo cement hoppers, and a solitary Lowmac. This last was tail-wagon in a passenger service.

 

[sulzer71]

32 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

Bachmann have produced the bauxite liveried vacuum fitted 9’ wheelbase D/108

Would these be Bachmann ref 37-238 by any chance? I have just come across those  

[The Johnster]

 

39 minutes ago, sulzer71 said:

Would these be Bachmann ref 37-238 by any chance? I have just come across those  

 

Dunno, can't find it in the current online catalogue.  Probably, though.  Mine (I only have one, they were thin on the ground in South Wales in the 50s) has running number B 68019, if that's any help.  Bachmann have produced the unfitted D1/108 with several running numbers, including as a 3-wagon set pack, and may have done the same with the bauxite wagon.  I have an unfitted MoT version in bauxite and a slope-sider MoT in bauxite as well. 

 

The 10' generic RTR wheelbase coal wagon is a nuiscance.  It covers steel-bodied fitted and unfitted 16tonners from Triang, Hornby Dublo, Trix, Airfix, Lima, and Dapol, and 7-plank 12/13tonners from those companies as well.  This is before one considers the many spurious private owner liveries those companies foisted upon us.  Mainline were TTBOMK the first RTR company to produce these wagons with the correct length chassis, and TTBOMK they were fairly disciplined about their liveries as well, and the chassis has been very considerably improved by their successor Bachmann; current Baccy minerals are about as good as one can reasonably expect from a volume RTR manufacturer. 

 

Oxford do correct wheelbase 7-plankers, though like Bachmann's the detail is generic and may not be correct for individual wagons; I am not much bothered when it gets to this level tbh.  Credit and kudos to those companies.  Stretched bodies on incorrect 10' wheelbase chassis are next to impossible to correct, because the diagonal strapping in moulded in the tooling and one cannot simply cut sections out of the bodyshell.  I've done it to an old Airfix 7-planker that knocks around the colliery as an internal user, but the cuts were made at the side door join, the only location that does not interfere with the diagonal bracing, and on the 'door' side of the join to protect the detail, and the result is that the door is narrow and out of proportion to the rest of the sides; tbh it's not worth the bother.  The wagon will eventually be replaced with an Oxford, and binned; the buffers might be worth salvaging but the chassis is crude with moulded handbrake levers.

[Hal Nail]

 

7 hours ago, sulzer71 said:

Would these be Bachmann ref 37-238 by any chance? 

Just Googled these and they do represent TOPS era wagons retro fitted and rebodied (ie missing the side top door flap). So yes, suitable for 80s.

 

The earliest fitted wagons from the 50s were the 8 shoe clasp braked ones but there weren't actually that many of them. The 4 shoe retro fits came later.

[sulzer71]

So below is a list of what wagons/kits I currently have stashed , although some of the  underframe kits aren't specifically for the minerals I'm not sure if they would be of use for parts?

If anyone has anyone has any suggestions what I could cobble together from all these I'd appreciate comments , obviously they need repainting but that isn't an issue

 

Bachmann 37-235 3 pack with top flaps

37-253B No top flap

37-377G With top flaps

 

Kits - Parkside Dundas PC21 with top flaps x 2

 

Underframe Kits

 

Ratio 5050 10ft

Parkside Dundas PA06 LNER 10ft Vac + Clasp x 3

Parkside Dundas PA07 BR 9ft Unfitted Morton

Parkside Dundas PA08 BR/RCH 9ft Unfitted Double Brake

Parkside Dundas PA09 BR 10ft Vac + Push Brake Shoes x 2

Parkside Dundas PA10 BR 12ft Unfitted Morton x 3

 

Tia

 

Dave 

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

There are even some MCV's for sale on this very forum!

 

Mike.

[turbos]

My advice is to study Paul Bartletts Zenfolio site to understand the myriad of differences that can be found on 16t minerals. Were the Kyle minerals MCV or MXV, what types of bearings and buffers?

Personally I’d avoid the Dapol kit as the door hinges are overscale and wrong, Parkside Peco if it requires a top door or Cambrian if it doesn’t.

Here’s some pics of some I’ve built.

 

[Fat Controller]

2 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

There are even some MCV's for sale on this very forum!

 

Mike.

And very nice they look, as well.

 

[sulzer71]

2 hours ago, turbos said:

My advice is to study Paul Bartletts Zenfolio site to understand the myriad of differences that can be found on 16t minerals. Were the Kyle minerals MCV or MXV, what types of bearings and buffers?

Personally I’d avoid the Dapol kit as the door hinges are overscale and wrong, Parkside Peco if it requires a top door or Cambrian if it doesn’t.

Here’s some pics of some I’ve built.

 

Definitely seen pictures of MCVs on the Kyle Line but not come across any pictures of MXVs yet

[Wickham Green too]

Four MCVs that were - presumably - heading south from the Highlands ( empty ) but didn't get much further than Aviemore : -

 

Dalraddy Cottage : 14/4/80

[41516]

5 hours ago, turbos said:

Personally I’d avoid the Dapol kit as the door hinges are overscale and wrong,

 

It doesn't take much to replace the hinges. These are both Airfix bodies, the one on the left is on a Parkside chassis.  I think I prefer the squarer Airfix/Dapol axleboxes.

 

(missing vac cylinders now I look - I must not have had spares when I did these, that can be corrected now)

 

 

Mainline body reworked on the left as a 10ft example

 

 

Mainline/Red Panda  10ft wb and Airfix (again)

 

 

 

All still need couplings and weathering!

 

For the 9ft retrofitted versions, note that the tiebars were L shaped with the out web of the L facing out and that they were all from lots 2917 to 2922 which have a distinctive reinforcing rib in the brake levers.  A list of converted wagons is in "Wagons of the Final Years of British Railways" by David Larkin, pages 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, and 33!

 

 

Edited February 1, 2023 by 41516
missing a 'panda'

[doilum]

If a very specific wagon type was required for attachment to passenger trains was the coal transhipped somewhere in Scotland, or was their a complex working from an individual colliery?

[Flying Pig]

On 01/02/2023 at 08:27, sulzer71 said:

Bachmann 37-235 3 pack with top flaps

 

Basic unfitted Diagram 1/108 wagon with original body.  Would need: an additional set of brakes (note - pushrods handed left over right) on the unbraked side where there should already be a lever with Moreton clutch; brake cylinder; tiebars between the axleguards; relivery.  Check prototype photos for condition and markings of unrebodied wagons in your period as they'd be getting on and might well have pre-tops branding like some of @41516's models rather than "MCV".

 

On 01/02/2023 at 08:27, sulzer71 said:

37-253B No top flap

 

No top flap but carries early BR livery and white V indicating bottom doors, so almost certainly a pre-nationalisation build.  Underframe likely has independent brakes both sides with no cross-shaft (necessary to clear bottom doors).  I don't think that design of underframe is suitable for conversion to a fitted wagon, but you could swap the body onto a converted underframe from pack 37-235 to represent a rebodied wagon.

 

On 01/02/2023 at 08:27, sulzer71 said:

37-377G With top flaps

 

As 37-235 but with pressed steel rather than welded end door.  I don't know how common these were in later years - check photos again.  Otherwise conversion would be the same.

 

On 01/02/2023 at 08:27, sulzer71 said:

Kits - Parkside Dundas PC21 with top flaps x 2

 

As Bachmann 37-235 again.

 

I don't think the underframes are of much use except as a source of brakes.  You should be able to rob three suitable sets from PA07 and PA08, but I think they will need to be mounted back to front in order to be the correct left-over-right configuration for the clutch side of a wagon, so you will lose some detail.

 

On 01/02/2023 at 14:46, sulzer71 said:

Definitely seen pictures of MCVs on the Kyle Line but not come across any pictures of MXVs yet

 

MXV was a post-1980 code applied to some of the 4-shoe vacuum braked conversions, previously MCV, to mark them as suitable for certain flows where the unloading equipment couldn't handle 8-shoe MCVs (e.g. at Goole docks).  There was no other change to the wagons AFAIK.  Basically necessary because the unfitted wagons preferred by the NCB at the colliery end of the run were practically extinct, so fitted had to be used.

[Flying Pig]

3 hours ago, Flying Pig said:

No top flap but carries early BR livery and white V indicating bottom doors, so almost certainly a pre-nationalisation build.  Underframe likely has independent brakes both sides with no cross-shaft (necessary to clear bottom doors).  I don't think that design of underframe is suitable for conversion to a fitted wagon, but you could swap the body onto a converted underframe from pack 37-235 to represent a rebodied wagon.

 

Duh - yes it is.  Reverse one of the sets of brakes so it is left-over right; replace the lever on that side with the Moreton lever from your PA07 (or just alter the existing lever by slicing it from the V hanger and reattaching above a slice of plastic rod); add a cross shaft and cylinder and axleguard tiebars; relivery.

[sulzer71]

Thanks for all the replies and useful info everyone , had a few more books delivered this week which will also help , certainly seem a bit of a minefield these wagons! 

[hmrspaul]

3 hours ago, sulzer71 said:

Thanks for all the replies and useful info everyone , had a few more books delivered this week which will also help , certainly seem a bit of a minefield these wagons! 

As the 16 ton mineral was 50% of the BR pre airbrake fleet (give or take) a few differences will creep in. No one I know has tried to sort out the MCO fleet as to what sort of door construction they had when new. And having such parts interchangeable with both each other and the 21 ton and 24.5t wagons it is hardly surprising. And then they stopped the vacuum braking because it was unsuitable for unloading and then they began to rebody and then, and then....

 

Paul

 

[Hal Nail]

Notwithstanding the variety, you still want a rake to be representative. In that regard for 70/80s I'd suggest the fitted morton 4 shoe, tie bar, welded body, welded end door both with and without top flaps as the most common stock type and then a couple of variants?

[finelines]

Where do the Horwich palbrick rebuilds fit into this?

 

Roger

[Hal Nail]

35 minutes ago, finelines said:

Where do the Horwich palbrick rebuilds fit into this?

 

On 31/01/2023 at 16:42, Fat Controller said:

There were 394 10' wb 16-tonners built on a mixture of former Palbricks, with several types of brake gear. Some even had roller bearings. I've seen no evidence allocating them to any particular flow; the only ones I saw were at Llanelli goods yard, carrying domestic coal. 

[br2975]

As a starter, you may wish to secure the following articles, all of which are recommended.

.

"The 16 ton steel mineral wagon" by Peter Fidczuk - in three parts, published in Modellers Backtrack.

.

"Mineral Wagons" by Keith Allen, Railway Modeller November, 1980

.

"Mineral Prospecting" by Ian Fleming, British Railway Modelling (i) Nov. 2001 & (ii) Sept. 2002.

.

"Clasp-braked mineral wagons" by Dave Spencer, Railway Modeller, June 2013 

.

You may find the following links of interest also;

.

https://windcutter.wordpress.com/page-108/

and

https://windcutter.wordpress.com/minfits

.

.

 

Edited February 7, 2023 by br2975